In a world without guns...the strong and the many can brutally beat the weak and outnumbered...

[Saigon]

I don't care who you compare us to.
Your anti american agenda has been exposed.
In spite of people politely showing you data and statistics that support their argument, you resort to snark and semantic distortion..
You're here to agitate and be provocative.
Have fun.

You have to laugh, don't you?

If you had worded this 180 degrees to the opposite, you'd have had a fairly good overview of this thread.

As you obviously know, I have been showered with witless name-calling and abuse from Page One - usually by posters who simply have nothing better to offer. In return, I've been polite and stayed on topic.

There has been quite a lot of data presented - and no one has posted more than I have.

I'm not 'agitating' or 'being provocative' - I'm making honest observations and with facts to back them up. You're entitled to disagree.

But yes - this thread is great fun for me!

 

[Saigon]

another poster dismantled your chart and whole argument 8 or 9 pages ago..you keep circling back as if it never happened, though.

Give me a post # and I'll adress it...I haven't seen anyone even mention it.

 

[Saigon]

European nations have made a trade off...they would rather that their populations accept criminal attack, quietly, stoically, wether it is a violent street robbery or home invasion, a rape or brutal beating or murder, than that the victims of such crimes fight back and prevent those crimes....Britain is far more violent than we are...and they are content to just allow the NHS minister to the victims....than allow those victims to defeat those criminals and stop the crimes...

As long as we are clear on that....

The trade off we have made is that we would prefer safe streets, safe homes and schools.

The statistics back this up. Again - the US has 138 times the number of gun homicides that the UK has....so what "victims" are you talking about?

 

[August West]

Still you fail to address the positive aspects of gun ownership...the 1.4 million times,each year American guns are used to save lives and stop violent crime....which is far more times than guns are used to murder people...

Why should anyone address fairy tales? Last week it was 2-3 million times guns were used to prevent crime. You folks should pick one number you like and stick to it.

 

[2aguy]

August...you have seen the data...they back up the claim...you can deny it...but you can't hide it...

Well...saving lives and stopping crime 1.4 million times on average...vs. 11-12,000 murders, 80% which are gang related...is an easy number to understand...

Britain just reduced gun murders, not violent crime...they have twice as many violent crime incidents per 100,000 people as the United States...their victims are simply victims...a trade off...

 

[Rotagilla]

Still you fail to address the positive aspects of gun ownership...the 1.4 million times,each year American guns are used to save lives and stop violent crime....which is far more times than guns are used to murder people...

Why should anyone address fairy tales?

You deny it?
prove it, then..Saying "nuh uh" isn't proof.

Last week it was 2-3 million times guns were used to prevent crime.

Link?

You folks should pick one number you like and stick to it.

He said 1.4
You have data that refutes it?

 

[2aguy]

On the studies about guns used to save lives and stop crime...

Okay...again...here are all the studies that actually give numbers for guns used to save lives and stop crimes taken from the table I provided from guncite.com...

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

The below numbers represent studies in the above links...but for some reason the totals at the bottom of the columns don't want to paste....so I post them here...along with the date of the study...

Field...1976....3,052,717

Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIa 1978...2,141,512

DMIb...1978...1,098,409

Hart...1981...1.797,461

Ohio...1982...771,043

Mauser...1990...1,487,342

Gallup...1991...777,153

Gallup...1993...1,621,377

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,682

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036

|GunCite Home|

Table 1 FREQUENCY OF DEFENSIVE GUN USE IN PREVIOUS SURVEYS [80]
Survey:	Field	Bordua	Cambridge Reports	DMIa	DMIb	Hart	Ohio
Area:	California	Illinois	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	Ohio
Year of Interview	1976	1977	1978	1978	1978	1981	1982
Population Covered	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Registered voters	Registered voters	Registered voters	"Residents"
Gun Type Covered	Handguns	All guns	Handguns	All guns	All guns	Handguns	Handguns
Recall Period:	Ever/1, 2 yrs.	Ever	Ever	Ever	Ever	5 yrs.	Ever
Excluded Uses Against Animals	No	No	No	No	Yes	Yes	No
Excluded Military, Police Uses?	Yes	No	No	Yes	Yes	Yes	No
Defensive question asked of:	All Rs	All Rs	Protection hgun owners	All Rs	All Rs	All Rs	Rs in hgun households
Defensive question refers to:	Respondent	Respondent	Respondent	Household	Household	Household	Respondent
% Who Used	1.4/3/8.6[a]	5.0	18	15	7	4	6.5
% Who Fired Gun	2.9	n.a.	12	6	n.a.	n.a.	2.6
Implied number of def. gun uses

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

[Page 183]

Table 1 (continued) FREQUENCY OF DEFENSIVE GUN USE IN PREVIOUS SURVEYS
Survey:	Time/CNN	Mauser	Gallup	Gallup	L.A. Times	Tarrance
Area:	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.
Year of Interview	1989	1990	1991	1993	1994	1994
Population Covered	"Firearm owners"	Residents	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults
Gun Type Covered	All guns	All guns	All guns	All guns	All guns	All guns
Recall Period:	Ever	5 yrs.	Ever	Ever	Ever	5 yrs.
Excluded Uses Against Animals	No	Yes	No	No	No	Yes
Excluded Military, Police Uses?	Yes	Yes	No	Yes	Yes	Yes
Defensive question asked of:	Gun owners	All Rs	Rs in hgun hshlds	Gun owners	All	All
Defensive question refers to:	Respondent	Hshld.	Respondent	Respondent	Respondent	Respondent/ Household
% Who Used	n.a.	3.79	8	11	8[c]	1/2[d]
% Who Fired Gun	9-16e	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.
Implied number of def. gun uses

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Source: Gary, Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," Table 1, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1.

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
(Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text,PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
.(Lawrence Southwick, Jr.,Guns and Justifiable Homicide: Deterrence and Defense-concludes there are at least 400,000 "fewer violent crimes due to civilian self-defense use of guns" and at least "800,000 violent crimes are deterred each year because of gun ownership and use by civilians.")

Obama's CDC...

from slate.com an article on CDC obama's era...500-3 million defensive gun uses

Handguns suicides mass shootings deaths and self-defense Findings from a research report on gun violence.

7. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report. The three million figure is probably high, “based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.”

"Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year."
As shown in the previous footnote, this study did not use a nationally representative population. To correct for this, Just Facts used the following equation:

As Kleck points out in his paper...

All of the eleven surveys yielded results that implied over 700,000 uses per year. None of the surveys implied estimates even remotely like the 65,000 to 82,000 figures derived from the NCVS. To date, there has been no confirmation of even the most approximate sort of the NCVS estimates. Indeed, no survey has ever yielded an estimate which is of the same magnitude as those derived from the NCVS.​

​

 

[Saigon]

Britain just reduced gun murders, not violent crime...they have twice as many violent crime incidents per 100,000 people as the United States...their victims are simply victims...a trade off...

Not so fast there, Billie...the first figure in black is the UK - the 2nd the US. The UK total crime rate is higher - but not the total violent crime.

Total crime victims

26.4% Ranked 3rd. 25% more than United States

21.1% Ranked 15th.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

United Kingdom vs United States Crime Stats Compared

Violent crime > Intentional homicide rate	1.17 Ranked 74th.	4.7 Ranked 7th. 4 times more than United Kingdom
Violent crime > Murder rate	722 Ranked 34th.	12,996 Ranked 9th. 18 times more than United Kingdom
Violent crime > Murder rate per million people	11.68 Ranked 94th.	42.01 Ranked 43th. 4 times more than United Kingdom
Violent crime > Murders	722 Ranked 34th.	12,996 Ranked 9th. 18 times more than United Kingdom

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[2aguy]

My figures come from the skeptical libertarian and politifact....they put the numbers at this...

By the Numbers Is the UK really 5 times more violent than the US 8211 The Skeptical Libertarian Blog

Due to fundamental differences in how crime is recorded and categorized, it’s impossible to compute exactly what the British violent crime rate would be if it were calculated the way the FBI does it, but if we must compare the two, my best estimate‡ would be something like 776 violent crimes per 100,000 people. While this is still substantially higher than the rate in the United States, it’s nowhere near the 2,034 cited by Swann and the Mail.

 

[Saigon]

Here are some more stats on that UK/US divide...gain, the UK figure is first, the US figure 2nd.

Perceived problems > Problem violent crimes including assault and armed robbery	37.35 Ranked 50th.	75.54 Ranked 10th. 2 times more than United Kingdom
Fear of crime > Worries about being mugged or robbed	42.18 Ranked 51st.	45.01 Ranked 47th. 7% more than United Kingdom
Perceived problems > Property crimes including vandalism and theft	50.97 Ranked 43th.	57.93 Ranked 28th. 14% more than United Kingdom

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[2aguy]

Billie.

Bill is fine...and uses fewer letters...

 

[August West]

Gun pimp Kleck has been debunked repeatedly. He interviewed people over the phone and did not use actual police reports. One word describes Mr. Kleck. Fraud.
Contradictions of Kleck

Kleck De-bunkerd. Kleck Debunked One Utah

 

[2aguy]

London is awash in bloody knives....

London Knife Crime Offences 2007 to 2012 Citizens Report UK

Table of London Knife Crime Offences by Borough 2007 – 2012

BOROUGH	Knife Crime 2007-08	Knife Crime 2008-09	Knife Crime 2009-10	Knife Crime 2010-11	Knife Crime 2011-12 % change over yr
Barking and Dagenham	384	354	397	391	461 (+17.9%)
Barnet	364	340	404	357	393 (+10.1%)
Bexley	170	193	136	154	160 (+3.9%)
Brent	623	504	547	512	575 (+12.3%)
Bromley	265	323	286	282	276 (-2.1%)
Camden	474	318	349	426	440 (+3.3%)
Croydon	595	491	542	508	566 (+11.4%)
Ealing	585	489	567	528	504 (-4.5%)
Enfield	554	446	533	577	514 (-10.9%)
Greenwich	509	414	373	435	396 (-9%)
Hackney	660	548	509	539	506 (-6.1%)
Hammersmith and Fulham	372	277	304	307	286 (-6.8%)
Haringey	633	505	495	490	552 (+12.7%)
Harrow	215	216	181	190	221 (+16.3%)
Havering	187	203	205	222	231 (+4.1%)
Heathrow Airport	1	0	0	0
Hillingdon	367	342	266	262	336(+28.2%)
Hounslow	345	25	262	335	341 (+1.8%)
Islington	445	464	409	443	544(+22.8%)
Kensington and Chelsea	194	185	150	159	167 (+5%)
Kingston upon Thames	133	137	116	101	106 (+5%)
Lambeth	719	662	692	819	1006(+22.8%)
Lewisham	580	498	498	650	676 (+4%)
Merton	218	177	239	223	299(+34.1%)
Newham	980	597	788	774	764 (-1.3%)
Redbridge	396	407	316	307	432(+40.7%)
Richmond upon Thames	109	75	97	80	100(+25%)
Southwark	827	725	880	961	920 (-4.3%)
Sutton	182	182	163	150	130 (-13.3%)
Tower Hamlets	556	481	433	496	630(+27%)
Waltham Forest	631	545	618	625	603 (-3.5%)
Wandsworth	383	365	404	448	396 (-11.6%)
Westminster	536	529	458	575	638 (+11%)
TOTAL per financial year	14192	12347	12617	13326	14170 (+6.3%)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

knife crime offences updated to 2013 on this link
source MPS 2012.

 

[2aguy]

Gun pimp Kleck has been debunked repeatedly.

No, anti gunners claim to have debunked him repeatedly, and have never done so...I also have defenses of his work that show his is the most accurate of the studies done in the 1990s...

Besides...how do you account for the other 18 studies...which puts his near the top range but not nearly the highest...all done by different research teams, both from private and government sources, over a 40 year period...one even by the Dept. of Justice that put the number at 1.4 million and obama's CDC that analyzed all the research in 2013 (for 10 million dollars) and found that guns are used to save lives 500,000-3 million times a year....

Explain that...

I posted all of the studies I could find to date in this thread...they show you are wrong and Kleck is right....learn to live with it...

 

[2aguy]

A look at London gun crime...keeping in mind the recent scandal of under reporting crime by the police...in order to make their numbers look better...don't worry, the socialists in Chicago are doing it too...

London Gun Crime Offences per Borough 8211 2008 to 2013 Citizens Report UK

Table of London Gun Crime Offences by Borough – 2008 – 2011

BOROUGH	Gun Crime 2008-09	Gun Crime 2009-10	Gun Crime 2010-11	Gun Crime 2011-12	Gun Crime 2012-13
Barking and Dagenham	89	91	95	84	49
Barnet	97	109	73	47	69
Bexley	50	35	33	28	33
Brent	117	166	104	115	76
Bromley	82	75	61	45	38
Camden	64	127	50	62	36
Croydon	170	174	163	135	114
Ealing	98	118	108	105	62
Enfield	108	141	119	60	61
Greenwich	116	103	88	83	37
Hackney	141	182	104	79	70
Hammersmith and Fulham	55	62	85	38	33
Haringey	119	155	83	96	64
Harrow	62	49	46	39	27
Havering	41	43	45	46	35
Heathrow Airport	0	0	0
Hillingdon	74	72	73	58	52
Hounslow	71	50	55	42	40
Islington	78	106	52	59	46
Kensington and Chelsea	34	34	43	24	26
Kingston upon Thames	17	22	16	15	6
Lambeth	209	279	215	217	132
Lewisham	204	224	120	142	148
Merton	68	78	56	47	35
Newham	155	137	165	135	45
Redbridge	71	72	61	75	54
Richmond upon Thames	13	25	13	19	15
Southwark	195	226	212	147	164
Sutton	62	43	25	24	27
Tower Hamlets	65	89	53	72	48
Waltham Forest	135	142	149	126	69
Wandsworth	90	148	74	68	96
Westminster	72	83	70	72	68
TOTAL per financial year	3022	3460	2708	2404	1913 (-20.4% yearly reduction)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Saigon]

London is awash in bloody knives....

London Knife Crime Offences 2007 to 2012 Citizens Report UK
.

Really, Bill - your ability to ignore facts and figures at times reaches proportions difficult to comprehend.

I just posted stats that show that although total UK crime is higher than the US, both violent crime and fear of crime are higher in the US.

If England is so violence and so awash with knives, why are all the stats worse in the US?

Again, there are something 10 times as many murders in the US than in the UK - so what is all of this nonsense about British 'victims'?

 

[2aguy]

so what is all of this nonsense about British 'victims'?

Because you still have victims...they are stabbed...and shot...and raped, and beaten and are helpless against their attackers....sure...the British prefer that to victims stopping the attack, that is their choice...but here, we believe in an individual right to self defense...and that an individual does not have to accept a violent attack...quietly, stoically, so that the collective doesn't have to pay attention to it...

 

[2aguy]

Really, Bill - your ability to ignore facts and figures at times reaches proportions difficult to comprehend.

As does yours...1.4 million vs. 11-12,000 which number is larger....?

 

[2aguy]

If England is so violence and so awash with knives, why are all the stats worse in the US?

Culture...as John Lott and other researchers point out, Britain was less violent than the United States before they gave up their guns...and their gun murder violence rate didn't change...we have far more ethnic, and cultural diversity in cities run by the democrat political party...and it is in these cities with their crime prevention policies that create the murder problem...

For example...Chicago is short at least 2,000 police officers....1000 out right due to not hiring new officers and 1000 due to sick leave and vacations...but because the gun murders are based in poor, minority communities, the white democrats in charge have no need to hire new police officers since the minorities in those communities will still vote for them...

and the gun murders happen in those communities...take those communities out of the equation...and American gun crime drops to 1.4 per 100,000....

 

[Saigon]

so what is all of this nonsense about British 'victims'?

Because you still have victims...they are stabbed...and shot...and raped, and beaten and are helpless against their attackers....sure...the British prefer that to victims stopping the attack, that is their choice...but here, we believe in an individual right to self defense...and that an individual does not have to accept a violent attack...quietly, stoically, so that the collective doesn't have to pay attention to it...

You do understand that there are far less victims of violence and murder in the UK than there are in the US, right?

So what does all that right to self defense get you? Other than dead, I mean.