In normal world, this is known as "fraud".

[Leo123]

In Normal World, when you overstate the value of your holdings on official documents for the purpose of obtaining loans, that's known as "fraud". When you VASTLY overstate them, that's known as "another day in TrumpWorld™".

Defrauding people is "bad" It's "dishonest". People who commit fraud are "lying".

Here are just a few examples of how Trump commits fraud on financial documents to MAKE IT SEEM that he has a LOT more money than he does.

Trump Tower Triplex
Trump's claim: 30,000 sq ft
Actual appraisal: 10,996 sq ft

Seven Springs Estate Value
Trump's claim: $291 million
Actual appraisal: $30 million

40 Wall Street
Trump's claim: $527 million
Actual appraisal: $220 million

Mar-A-Lago
Trump's claim: $612 million
Actual value: $27.6 million

TNGC Briarcliff and TNGC LA
Trump's claim: $73 million
Actual value: $16 million

============

So I guess the question is, why are his followers so willing to overlook blatant fraud like this? Would any of you like to answer that question?

Let the deflection and personal attacks begin!

Source: Page 21 and beyond, DocumentCloud

What a stupid idiot you are. Lenders don't take your word for the value of your own Real Property. You state appraised values but, if an appraiser tells anyone but the stated user of the appraisal the outcome he or she will lose their appraisal license. If you're talking assessment for tax purposes then you or more of a moron than I thought.

Beyond that, it's not illegal for you to tell anyone what value you think your property is worth. My property is worth $5 million. Come arrest me.

 

[Foxfyre]

*and in lending

Yes in lending. But no lender is going to take the borrower's word for what any collateral is worth if it involves more than a Pawn Shop small loan. The lender will have an appraisal done.

There is no way a borrower can defraud a lender in matters of real property unless there is some terrible defect with the property that the appraiser can't know.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What a stupid idiot you are. Lenders don't take your word for the value of your own Real Property. You state appraised values but, if an appraiser tells anyone but the stated user of the appraisal the outcome he or she will lose their appraisal license. If you're talking assessment for tax purposes then you or more of a moron than I thought.

Beyond that, it's not illegal for you to tell anyone what value you think your property is worth. My property is worth $5 million. Come arrest me.

Good grief, none of you trumpers know a damn thing about any of this.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Yes in lending. But no lender is going to take the borrower's word for what any collateral is worth if it involves more than a Pawn Shop small loan. The lender will have an appraisal done.

There is no way a borrower can defraud a lender in matters of real property unless there is some terrible defect with the property that the appraiser can't know.

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. Yes, the lenders use financial statements, compiled by reputable firms, submitted by the borrower. Follow the trial.

 

[Leo123]

Yes in lending. But no lender is going to take the borrower's word for what any collateral is worth if it involves more than a Pawn Shop small loan. The lender will have an appraisal done.

There is no way a borrower can defraud a lender in matters of real property unless there is some terrible defect with the property that the appraiser can't know.

Correct. These anti Trump assholes will tell any lie to keep their 'Orange Man Bad' lie alive. Either that or they're just dumb as a box of rocks. Maybe both.

 

[Foxfyre]

Correct. These anti Trump assholes will tell any lie to keep their 'Orange Man Bad' lie alive. Either that or they're just dumb as a box of rocks. Maybe both.

Yep. On both possibilities.

 

[justoffal]

Your valuations on your post are high suspect as to the actual values. You might try different sources.

But in a normal world the seller or borrower can value his/her property at any amount he/she wants to and it is NOT in any way fraud. And no lender is going to take the seller or borrower's word for it but will do their own appraisal.

There is essentially no way to defraud a lender by overvaluing real properties.

Way high like not even a good lie high.

 

[justoffal]

Lie.

You obviously have none. Just stop talking.

That would be best for you....
Your insistence that those who disagree with you are neither educated nor experienced will paint you into a corner again and again. The numbers can't possibly be real. Nuff said

 

[justoffal]

That's nice.

But we aren't talking about selling or buying.

You're also not talking about reality but you are familiar with that position. Whether Trump overvalued his property or not is quite irrelevant to the numbers being claimed. There are no lending organizations in the real world that will leverage at such deficits... Doesn't matter who it is they are doing business with. I hope this doesn't frighten you...you seem to have been quite frightened of late.

 

[justoffal]

Yes in lending. But no lender is going to take the borrower's word for what any collateral is worth if it involves more than a Pawn Shop small loan. The lender will have an appraisal done.

There is no way a borrower can defraud a lender in matters of real property unless there is some terrible defect with the property that the appraiser can't know.

Yeah....this is now really beginning to stink.
If such a loan was actually made based on a 10 to one leverage as some of those numbers claim... the assessor should also be in court or if not him the loan officer. This does not wash.

 

[justoffal]

What a stupid idiot you are. Lenders don't take your word for the value of your own Real Property. You state appraised values but, if an appraiser tells anyone but the stated user of the appraisal the outcome he or she will lose their appraisal license. If you're talking assessment for tax purposes then you or more of a moron than I thought.

Beyond that, it's not illegal for you to tell anyone what value you think your property is worth. My property is worth $5 million. Come arrest me.

Yeah that's why this will fall apart. It looks like some state officials got shammed into making judgements on issues they are totally unfamiliar with. No lending institution is going to just TRUST a high value claim without sending a certified professional to verify it. If that was the case the assessor and the loan officers would be in jail or at least in trial.

 

[Foxfyre]

Way high like not even a good lie high.

Maybe. Maybe not. You can't trust the MSM to be honest in what they report about somebody they despise.

But for sure there is nothing illegal in me saying my house is worth $1 million when I live in what is probably a lower middle class neighborhood because nobody is going to lend me $1 million on a property worth small a fraction of that. The only way I would be guilty of fraud is if I bribed the lender's appraiser to report a higher value than the property is worth. The appraiser would probably be sharing my jail cell should either of us do that.

 

[justoffal]

Maybe. Maybe not. You can't trust the MSM to be honest in what they report about somebody they despise.

But for sure there is nothing illegal in me saying my house is worth $1 million when I live in what is probably a lower middle class neighborhood because nobody is going to lend me $1 million on a property worth small a fraction of that. The only way I would be guilty of fraud is if I bribed the lender's appraiser to report a higher value than the property is worth. The appraiser would probably be sharing my jail cell should either of us do that.

Yeah that's what I'm saying. The final loan papers will have the numbers that were actually used not the ones claimed.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Only if you assume the lender will take your word for it.

It's a pretty easy thing to do to appraise a property or a business and if a lender doesn't do that it's his own fault.

Now I haven't heard if Trump actually got loans based on his inflated estimations. Did he? And if he did did he default?

If the answer to either one of those is no then there was no fraud or if there was there was no victim. If there is no victim is there a crime at all?

No-many of the loans have already been paid back. Those that have not are current. None of the lenders has any problem.

And, of course, the values posted are ludicrous. (Mar-A-Lago is easily worth 10x what is stated here-according to a lawyer specializing in Florida real estate, it's probably a 10-figure property..)

 

[justoffal]

No-many of the loans have already been paid back. Those that have not are current. None of the lenders has any problem.

And, of course, the values posted are ludicrous. (Mar-A-Lago is easily worth 10x what is stated here-according to a lawyer specializing in Florida real estate, it's probably a 10-figure property..)

Something stinks. It's starting to fall apart.
Beginning to look like abuse of judiciary.
That could invite Federal examination like it did in Massachusetts 2 years ago.

Jo

 

[Leo123]

Yeah that's why this will fall apart. It looks like some state officials got shammed into making judgements on issues they are totally unfamiliar with. No lending institution is going to just TRUST a high value claim without sending a certified professional to verify it. If that was the case the assessor and the loan officers would be in jail or at least in trial.

Assessors don't do market valuations they do tax valuations. If the property just sold then, the assessor would most likely use that sale price as the value. In the absence of a recent sale, the assessor would have to use historical market data and historical assessment values.

A lender would hire an appraiser to come up with a market value as of the date of that appraisal and use current comparable sales, and in this case, rental income data in the Market and capitalize that income data to come up with a market value. Cost would also be calculated and those 3 approaches to value would be reconciled into one overall value for the property. You are 100% correct, no lender would lend money on some owner's opinion of their own property. Also, it's not illegal in any way for one to understate or overstate the value of one's own property. Like I told that stupid idiot Mac1958, I say my property is worth $5 million. Come and get me. Bunch of fucking idiots.

 

[Rigby5]

In Normal World, when you overstate the value of your holdings on official documents for the purpose of obtaining loans, that's known as "fraud". When you VASTLY overstate them, that's known as "another day in TrumpWorld™".

Defrauding people is "bad" It's "dishonest". People who commit fraud are "lying".

...

============

So I guess the question is, why are his followers so willing to overlook blatant fraud like this? Would any of you like to answer that question?

Let the deflection and personal attacks begin!

Source: Page 21 and beyond, DocumentCloud

Wrong.
Borrowers are not supposed to be good at doing evaluation documents.
The POINT is Trump did not default, cost the bank any lost profit, so there was no harm done.
The evaluation had to be accurate, since it correctly predicted that Trump could afford the loan.
It is ONLY "fraud" is it harms someone else.
No one was harmed.
So then it was NOT "fraud", by any rational definition.

 

[Leo123]

Something stinks. It's starting to fall apart.
Beginning to look like abuse of judiciary.
That could invite Federal examination like it did in Massachusetts 2 years ago.

Jo

Malicious prosecution at the least.

 

[justoffal]

Assessors don't do market valuations they do tax valuations. If the property just sold then, the assessor would most likely use that sale price as the value. In the absence of a recent sale, the assessor would have to use historical market data and historical assessment values.

A lender would hire an appraiser to come up with a market value as of the date of that appraisal and use current comparable sales, and in this case, rental income data in the Market and capitalize that income data to come up with a market value. Cost would also be calculated and those 3 approaches to value would be reconciled into one overall value for the property. You are 100% correct, no lender would lend money on some owner's opinion of their own property. Also, it's not illegal in any way for one to understate or overstate the value of one's own property. Like I told that stupid idiot Mac1958, I say my property is worth $5 million. Come and get me. Bunch of fucking idiots.

Yes right... appraiser...meant to say that. I guess my point is that there was no way for Trump to fool anyone... regardless of his claims. The lenders aren't doing shit until they verify. Sooo no crime exists here.

 

[Foxfyre]

No-many of the loans have already been paid back. Those that have not are current. None of the lenders has any problem.

And, of course, the values posted are ludicrous. (Mar-A-Lago is easily worth 10x what is stated here-according to a lawyer specializing in Florida real estate, it's probably a 10-figure property..)

We live on roughly 1000 sq ft lot in an older three bedroom, two bath home without a lot of amenities inside or out. The neighborhood is mostly well kept but is an older neighborhood of not what you would call high value homes.

Zillow estimates the value of our property at $500,000. That's way high but at least gives a marker to start from.

When you figure Mar-a-lago is 20 acres (871,200 sq ft), has a very large exquisite building on it plus other structures, a well kept golf course, beautifully landscaped, magnificently appointed and maintained, located in one of Florida's highest rent districts, I think most of us couldn't imagine what that would be worth to a buyer with unlimited cash.