In the name of Islam

[TemplarKormac]

Declaring that you "won't hear" things that you don't want to hear is never a sign of someone who's actually interested in having a conversation.

When the intent and motive are staring you in the face, any further conversation on this topic seems rather pointless, don't you agree?

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Nothing Coyote has posted has been in "defense" of this guy.

She asked me in rather blunt terms "Why is it when its a Muslim you're willing to rule out mental illness?"

I'm sorry. You can trash my reasoning all you wish, but that sounds like a defense to me.

How the fuck does that sound like a "defense" to you?

In what way did she defend or excuse him or his behavior?

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Declaring that you "won't hear" things that you don't want to hear is never a sign of someone who's actually interested in having a conversation.

When the intent and motive are staring you in the face, any further conversation on this topic seems rather pointless, don't you agree?

When you make up intents and motivations for anyone who disagrees with you to justify ignoring their arguments, then yes - conversing does become rather pointless.

But I expect better from you.

 

[TemplarKormac]

In what way did she defend or excuse him or his behavior?

The question speaks for itself.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

In what way did she defend or excuse him or his behavior?

The question speaks for itself.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.

 

[TemplarKormac]

In what way did she defend or excuse him or his behavior?

The question speaks for itself.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.

The question is itself a defense, or at least an attempt to quash any other possibilities, such as perhaps that this man was a Muslim. Words do matter.

And if I'm wrong in my assertions or accusations, you and Coyote have my sincerest apologies.

 

[TemplarKormac]

But I expect better from you.

People always tell me to think less in terms of black and white and more of the grey in between, but when I do I get this in response. I used the video and the statements the man made to police as my evidence. When someone outrightly attempts to dismiss the presented evidence, it makes me suspicious.

Maybe suspiciousness is my weakness. She hasn't rebutted my claims, nor has she disputed any of my accusations. What am I supposed to do? Accept all of this at face value?

 

[theDoctorisIn]

In what way did she defend or excuse him or his behavior?

The question speaks for itself.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.

The question is itself a defense, or at least an attempt to quash any other possibilities, such as perhaps that this man was a Muslim. Words do matter.

And if I'm wrong in my assertions or accusations, you and Coyote have my sincerest apologies.

You could argue that my and Coyote's responses to you are in defense of Islam, but certainly not this guy particularly. Rejecting your attempt to blame this man's actions on his supposed religion is not in any sense defending his actions.

And yes - I am defending islam, as I would for any ideology that I witness people attempting to justify hatred and fear of.

 

[TemplarKormac]

And yes - I am defending Islam, as I would for any ideology that I witness people attempting to justify hatred and fear of.

Have I said anything about justifying hatred of Islam? Where have I said "because of what this man has done, I implore you hate Islam with all of your being"?

Tell you what, I spent the better part of four hours playing Guild Wars 2 with a Muslim friend of mine last night. I'm in his guild, full of LGBTQ members (and some straight people too).

I don't hate Muslims, if I did I would never have made friends with him. I told you, I don't discriminate. I don't hate anyone unless they give me a sufficient reason to. In the end, if this man isn't a Muslim, so be it. I hate him anyway.

Moreover, I have defended Islam on multiple occasions (against protectionist mainly) that we should never bar Islam from America or make generalizations about them otherwise. They have the freedom to be as peaceful as they wish.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

But I expect better from you.

People always tell me to think less in terms of black and white and more of the grey in between, but when I do I get this in response. I used the video and the statements the man made to police as my evidence. When someone outrightly attempts to dismiss the presented evidence, it makes me suspicious.

Maybe suspiciousness is my weakness. She hasn't rebutted my claims, nor has she disputed any of my accusations. What am I supposed to do? Accept all of this at face value?

Proclaiming that you won't accept any arguments that you don't like is not thinking in shades of gray.

No one is asking you to accept anyone's arguments at face value, I'm asking you to stop attempting to de-legitimize any dissenting arguments by imagining "intents and motivations".

 

[theDoctorisIn]

And yes - I am defending Islam, as I would for any ideology that I witness people attempting to justify hatred and fear of.

Have I said anything about justifying hatred of Islam? Where have I said "because of what this man is done, I implore you hate Islam with all of your being"?

Tell you what, I spent the better part of four hours playing Guild Wars 2 with a Muslim friend of mine last night. I'm in his guild, full of LGBTQ members (and some straight people too).

I don't hate Muslims, if I did I would never have made friends with him. I told you, I don't discriminate. I have defended on multiple occasions (against protectionist) that we should bar Islam from America or make generalizations about them otherwise.

Ok, fair enough.

So then why was the supposed religion of this man important enough to you to start a thread about it?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Proclaiming that you won't accept any arguments that you don't like is not thinking in shades of gray.

I never said that explicitly. When the evidence is incontrovertible, any attempted rebuttals against it are meaningless.

 

[TemplarKormac]

So then why was the supposed religion of this man important enough to you to start a thread about it?

Perhaps I consider myself a provocateur, in a way. I've been here long enough to know what riles people up. Making threads like this on hot button issues will always do the trick.

That, and I did want to provoke meaningful discussion about it the possibility.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Remember, I am prepared to eat my words if something comes to light that suggest otherwise to my claims. Count on it.

 

[TemplarKormac]

No one is asking you to accept anyone's arguments at face value, I'm asking you to stop attempting to de-legitimize any dissenting arguments by imagining "intents and motivations".

The whole idea for me is to delegitimize another argument with one of my own, not necessarily by saying "I won't hear of any more." I distinctly recall making my case in this thread, then discussion ensues about my faults instead.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Proclaiming that you won't accept any arguments that you don't like is not thinking in shades of gray.

I never said that explicitly. When the evidence is incontrovertible, any attempted rebuttals against it are meaningless.

You got your "evidence" from news media. So did Coyote. What makes yours "incontrovertible"?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Proclaiming that you won't accept any arguments that you don't like is not thinking in shades of gray.

I never said that explicitly. When the evidence is incontrovertible, any attempted rebuttals against it are meaningless.

You got your "evidence" from news media. So did Coyote. What makes yours "incontrovertible"?

I used a video, and statements taken by police. I did not get any evidence from the "news media." They are the last thing I would trust.

I am fully aware of what his mother said. I am fully aware of what the Imam at the Masjid Mujahadeen said. But I tend not to take the statements of a family member seriously until sufficient evidence comes forth, you know, like medical records in this case. As far as the Imam goes, he can't possibly remember the faces or names of the worshipers going in and out of his mosque for their prayers. There are hundreds of them. Until that can be verified, I will not be able to trust him either.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Proclaiming that you won't accept any arguments that you don't like is not thinking in shades of gray.

I never said that explicitly. When the evidence is incontrovertible, any attempted rebuttals against it are meaningless.

You got your "evidence" from news media. So did Coyote. What makes yours "incontrovertible"?

I used a video, and statements taken by police. I did not get any evidence from the "news media." They are the last thing I would trust.

Where did you see this video, and read these statements, if not from the media?

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Proclaiming that you won't accept any arguments that you don't like is not thinking in shades of gray.

I never said that explicitly. When the evidence is incontrovertible, any attempted rebuttals against it are meaningless.

You got your "evidence" from news media. So did Coyote. What makes yours "incontrovertible"?

I used a video, and statements taken by police. I did not get any evidence from the "news media." They are the last thing I would trust.

I am fully aware of what his mother said. I am fully aware of what the Imam at the Masjid Mujahadeen said. But I tend not to take the statements of family member seriously until sufficient evidence comes forth, you know, like medical records in this case. As far as the Imam goes, he can't possibly remember the faces or names of the worshipers going in and out of his mosque for their prayers. There are hundreds of them. Until that can be verified, I will not be able to trust him either.

And yet, you seem to trust the perpetrator's words entirely. Why is that?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Where did you see this video

You Tube, search this thread for the post. I got most of my evidence from the video

and read these statements, if not from the media?

Also from You Tube. Direct from the Philadelphia Police Chief's mouth himself. I consider You Tube to be more trustworthy than the "news media."