Insurers Refuse To Cover Kansas Schools Where Teachers Carry Guns: It’s Too Risky

[Edgetho]

A Challenging Redeployment - Washington Post

"Honestly, at first, we thought a military officer dealing with today's fifth-graders and seventh-graders was not going to be very effective," said William A. Owings, an Old Dominion University education professor and one of the study's authors. "We found out that is totally untrue. We have come to believe that you're looking at life experience . . . that has a lot of crossover into good classroom skills."

When Rob LaPin, 30, left the Army to teach government at the troubled Walbrook High School in Baltimore last year, he and a fellow teacher spent lunchtime roaming the streets to find truants. LaPin was the robotics coach, student government sponsor and, much to the amusement of his friends, cheerleading coach and fashion coach.

"It engrossed me completely," said LaPin, who is working in Iraq as a government contractor but plans to return to teaching. "As a soldier in the classroom, my duty wasn't only to ensure my kids had good grades, but also to prepare them for life."

 

[editec]

Here's something I suspect the Insurance companies thought of that most of us probably have not

The School district's ARMED GUARDS FAIL to protect the students and then the school district gets sued for that.

Putting an armed guard in the school implies that the kids will be safe from nutters coming in to hurt them, right?.

So in the case where that security measure fails?

The school could find itself sued for failing to protect.

If the guards can be shown to have screwed up on the job then the school can be sued.

I TOTALLY get why no insurance company wants to take this risk.

 

[martybegan]

As I said, we have no point of discussion. You are in a fantasy world populated by John Wayne and Dirty Harry. The insurance underwriter lives in the real world and has based the decisions upon that. You are free to fantasize because you are accepting zero responsibility and have no consequences.

So you dont have a good response, and have now resorted to impinging my opinion, as well as resorting to the old tired "GUNS BAD UNGA BUNGA" line of logic.

Everything has consequences. A good example is idiots calling schools "gun free zones" and then doing nothing to actually assure the area is gun free.

If we trust our citizens out on the streets with a concealed carry weapon, why can't we trust them in a school?

I believe we have covered that. And yes, I am impugning your opinion. Although not with "guns bad" argument. Rather, "idea stupid" argument. Guns are not bad, putting guns in the hands of untrained people and thinking they are guards is stupid. Making them guards of children is criminally stupid. But no one is gong to take responsibility or accept the consequences when it goes bad.

No one is making them guards. What you are doing is allowing someone who is already certifed to conceal carry to keep thier weapon inside the building on thier person. If we trust them out on the street with the weapon, why dont we trust them in the schoolbuilding?

Did crossing the threshold of the schools entrance somehow make the gun more dangerous? Does the air in a school lead to a holstered weapon being more prone to firing on its own?

 

[martybegan]

Many districts will find ways to determine who has the guns and how to terminate them without making the guns the issue.

So basically terminate every teacher who is exercising thier 2nd amendment rights?

 

[Darkwind]

Kansas law thrusts Iowa insurer into gun debate

The EMC Insurance Cos. insures 85 percent to 90 percent of all Kansas school districts and has refused to renew coverage for schools that permit teachers and custodians to carry concealed firearms on their campuses under the new law, which took effect July 1. It's not a political decision, but a financial one based on the riskier climate it estimates would be created, the insurer said.

"We've been writing school business for almost 40 years, and one of the underwriting guidelines we follow for schools is that any on-site armed security should be provided by uniformed, qualified law enforcement officers," said Mick Lovell, EMC's vice president for business development. "Our guidelines have not recently changed."

They obviously hate America...or something

Insurance is all about risk and about pricing the cost of coverage in a way that correctly reflects it. That's one of the reasons many schools have gotten rid of their trampolines, he said.

"It's one thing to have a trained peace officer with a gun in school; it's a completely different situation when you have a custodian or a teacher with a gun," Skow said. "That changes the risk of insuring a school and magnifies it considerably."
snip
While a trampoline can hurt one person, modern weapons have the potential to kill many people very quickly, he said

Well, that went downhill quickly

It is a government facility.

Post a bond. Problem solved.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Many districts will find ways to determine who has the guns and how to terminate them without making the guns the issue.

So basically terminate every teacher who is exercising thier 2nd amendment rights?

I am sure that has happened before and such will happen there. But official reasoning will be that the teachers simply did not perform their duties well. Particularly any new or recently hired teachers in the last five years.

 

[Spoonman]

Many districts will find ways to determine who has the guns and how to terminate them without making the guns the issue.

sounds like discrimination to me. I hope the ACLU is all over this one.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No teacher has the right to have a gun in a public classroom except granted by the state.

School districts will be able to get around that without much problem.

 

[martybegan]

No teacher has the right to have a gun in a public classroom except granted by the state.

School districts will be able to get around that without much problem.

It should be up to the state to prove someone cannot bring a gun into a given area due to certain very limited circumstances.

Once I have a CCW i should only be denied armed entry into controlled areas, and private property where the owner does not want armed people.

 

[Crackerjaxon]

I'm an engineer, not a professional douche such as yourself. we deal with numbers. Our secrataries deal with words, occasionally spell check.

And if my spelling is the only thing you got as a retort, well you basically have proven by libtard assesment of your intellectual skills.

Go play candyland, or some other activity more in line with your congative abilities.

LOL, Custodial engineer has a secratary . That's rich.

And you're allowed to be a bad speller, but the fact that you're too lazy to even use the spell checker is the part that proves my point.

How about Chemical Engineer dickweed? And spell checks are not worth forum posts, unless this is an english professor's forum, which it is not.

My laziness is a long and trained virtue I have been working on for years.

If they let the semi-literate graduate, it's not much of a school you attended.

 

[Spoonman]

guns will be i schools soon. People are waking up to the fact that passing restrictive laws do not keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Case in point, Chicago. They finally wised up. let a few more incidents happen in schools and you will see armed guards and armed teachers.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No teacher has the right to have a gun in a public classroom except granted by the state.

School districts will be able to get around that without much problem.

It should be up to the state to prove someone cannot bring a gun into a given area due to certain very limited circumstances.

Once I have a CCW i should only be denied armed entry into controlled areas, and private property where the owner does not want armed people.

woulda shoulda coulda, marty. Your belief is not law.

 

[Survivalist]

Once they establish that the numbers are in their favor they'll start writing policies otherwise other insurers will fill that void.

As someone who has spent the last 40 years working for or with insurance companies, it isn't going to happen. If the schools initiate a valid training and qualifying program, maybe. But what school district has a few extra million to spend on that?

Are you a gun-phobe? Any school employee that is going to carry a gun should pay for his or her own training---if the school district allows the practice.

Gun training courses for concealed carry often run under $100, and the very best tactical firearms courses are not going to run more than a few thousand dollars per person.

Perhaps you should understand the concept of "relative risk." School shootings like Columbine and Sandy Hook affairs are negligable in their chances of occuring. The real risk of school violence is going to be based absoultely and completely on how dangerous the city or neighborhood is around it.

Do you have any statistics to prove that a school with armed teachers in a quiet city like in rural Kansas is going to have more stabbings, fights, drug arrests, vandalism or even shootings than a typical school in an urban hell-hole like Detroit?

 

[PratchettFan]

Once they establish that the numbers are in their favor they'll start writing policies otherwise other insurers will fill that void.

As someone who has spent the last 40 years working for or with insurance companies, it isn't going to happen. If the schools initiate a valid training and qualifying program, maybe. But what school district has a few extra million to spend on that?

Are you a gun-phobe? Any school employee that is going to carry a gun should pay for his or her own training---if the school district allows the practice.

Gun training courses for concealed carry often run under $100, and the very best tactical firearms courses are not going to run more than a few thousand dollars per person.

Perhaps you should understand the concept of "relative risk." School shootings like Columbine and Sandy Hook affairs are negligable in their chances of occuring. The real risk of school violence is going to be based absoultely and completely on how dangerous the city or neighborhood is around it.

Do you have any statistics to prove that a school with armed teachers in a quiet city like in rural Kansas is going to have more stabbings, fights, drug arrests, vandalism or even shootings than a typical school in an urban hell-hole like Detroit?

Perhaps you should re-read my post.

 

[Flopper]

I don't know about elsewhere, but in Florida we have what's called "School Resource Officers". Which are Uniformed Law Enforcement Officers (almost always Sheriff Deputies) in the larger Schools. Almost always High Schools.

In smaller Schools, especially Grade Schools, I'm not aware of a full time LEO being on the premises at all times.

Why should there be? For a few kids, 150-200 tops, putting an LEO there would be kinda expensive. Including his/her pay, the car, benefits, vacations, sick leave, Insurance etc, we're talking around 100k...... Minimum.

And to do what? Arrest little Pratchet for peeing his pants? Again?

Sick fucks like the one in Connecticut aren't going to attack Fort Bragg or Police HQ.

They're cowards. Not gonna happen. What they're going to do is attack the weakest spot they can find -- Unprotected Grade Schools, for example.

If we can't afford it.....??

There are around 1,250 Elementary and Middle Schools in Kansas and at a 100k (minimum) per school to put a Cop there to arrest pee-pants-pratchet, that works out to 125 Million Dollars if my math is correct. Per year.

You can buy a lot of Insurance with that kind of money. You can also self-insure and pay an Insurance Company to Administrate it for you.

Or, you can do like pee-pants-pratchet wants and just let idiots, morons and truly evil people kill our kids.

Or..... You can arm a select number of Teachers, Custodians and Coaches and let it be known that any attempt to kill children will be met with deadly force IMMEDIATELY.

The douche-nozzles that want to kill kids? They'll find somewhere else to make their sick statement.

One thing we know for sure, dimocrap headquarters will be safe

In Accordance with Florida law, at least one deputy is stationed at every public middle and high school. The School Resource Officer program exist in almost all states. The SRO's are trained experienced law enforcement officers with additional training.

 

[Survivalist]

As someone who has spent the last 40 years working for or with insurance companies, it isn't going to happen. If the schools initiate a valid training and qualifying program, maybe. But what school district has a few extra million to spend on that?

Are you a gun-phobe? Any school employee that is going to carry a gun should pay for his or her own training---if the school district allows the practice.

Gun training courses for concealed carry often run under $100, and the very best tactical firearms courses are not going to run more than a few thousand dollars per person.

Perhaps you should understand the concept of "relative risk." School shootings like Columbine and Sandy Hook affairs are negligable in their chances of occuring. The real risk of school violence is going to be based absoultely and completely on how dangerous the city or neighborhood is around it.

Do you have any statistics to prove that a school with armed teachers in a quiet city like in rural Kansas is going to have more stabbings, fights, drug arrests, vandalism or even shootings than a typical school in an urban hell-hole like Detroit?

Perhaps you should re-read my post.

Perhaps you should do more research and defend your statements a bit better.

 

[martybegan]

LOL, Custodial engineer has a secratary . That's rich.

And you're allowed to be a bad speller, but the fact that you're too lazy to even use the spell checker is the part that proves my point.

How about Chemical Engineer dickweed? And spell checks are not worth forum posts, unless this is an english professor's forum, which it is not.

My laziness is a long and trained virtue I have been working on for years.

If they let the semi-literate graduate, it's not much of a school you attended.

When i prep an actual document it gets proofed, and I let it sit 24 hours before sending just so it is right. When I post on a internet debate forum I dont care about grammar in general, and spelling as a subset.

Anyone who judges a person by thier internet persona is not too bright.

 

[PratchettFan]

How about Chemical Engineer dickweed? And spell checks are not worth forum posts, unless this is an english professor's forum, which it is not.

My laziness is a long and trained virtue I have been working on for years.

If they let the semi-literate graduate, it's not much of a school you attended.

When i prep an actual document it gets proofed, and I let it sit 24 hours before sending just so it is right. When I post on a internet debate forum I dont care about grammar in general, and spelling as a subset.

Anyone who judges a person by thier internet persona is not too bright.

We don't always see eye to eye, but I'm with you on this one. This forum is about ideas, not puncutation.

 

[Edgetho]

I don't know about elsewhere, but in Florida we have what's called "School Resource Officers". Which are Uniformed Law Enforcement Officers (almost always Sheriff Deputies) in the larger Schools. Almost always High Schools.

In smaller Schools, especially Grade Schools, I'm not aware of a full time LEO being on the premises at all times.

Why should there be? For a few kids, 150-200 tops, putting an LEO there would be kinda expensive. Including his/her pay, the car, benefits, vacations, sick leave, Insurance etc, we're talking around 100k...... Minimum.

And to do what? Arrest little Pratchet for peeing his pants? Again?

Sick fucks like the one in Connecticut aren't going to attack Fort Bragg or Police HQ.

They're cowards. Not gonna happen. What they're going to do is attack the weakest spot they can find -- Unprotected Grade Schools, for example.

If we can't afford it.....??

There are around 1,250 Elementary and Middle Schools in Kansas and at a 100k (minimum) per school to put a Cop there to arrest pee-pants-pratchet, that works out to 125 Million Dollars if my math is correct. Per year.

You can buy a lot of Insurance with that kind of money. You can also self-insure and pay an Insurance Company to Administrate it for you.

Or, you can do like pee-pants-pratchet wants and just let idiots, morons and truly evil people kill our kids.

Or..... You can arm a select number of Teachers, Custodians and Coaches and let it be known that any attempt to kill children will be met with deadly force IMMEDIATELY.

The douche-nozzles that want to kill kids? They'll find somewhere else to make their sick statement.

One thing we know for sure, dimocrap headquarters will be safe

In Accordance with Florida law, at least one deputy is stationed at every public middle and high school. The School Resource Officer program exist in almost all states. The SRO's are trained experienced law enforcement officers with additional training.

In Kansas, that still leaves about a thousand Elementary Schools.

In Florida, there are 1,862 Elementary Schools

My point still holds.... Sandy Hook was an Elementary School. No SRO. No armed... Anything.

Is putting armed Teachers in an Elementary School a bad idea? Maybe. We don't know because we don't have any experience at it

Is leaving Elementary Schools completely unprotected a bad idea?

That's not even an arguable point, we already know the answer.

 

[National Socialist]

Guess they would rather cover the clean up and construction of the aftermath of a school shooting because they don't want to insure the school....such asinine bs.