Interesting argument against the Ground Zero Mosque

[Jos]

Ah, the bible, brought to you by the same people who bring you today, Hollywood

 

[boedicca]

of COURSE you know.. jebus was just kidding about that whole "turn the other cheek" thing..

I wonder if Boe is calling Jesus a liar then, or worse, a hypocrite.

No. I just don't believe he was a self-destructive pacifist who would wish to see his beliefs turned into a suicide pact.

The Bible upon which you base your understanding of Jesus was compiled hundreds of years after his death by a politicized group in Nicea. Much of the content was written by people who never met him.

People read into the Bible what they wish to find. It is chockful of inconsistencies - which makes it very maleable.

 

[ConHog]

so does the bible...

.... do you REALLY want me to fuck you in the ass with MORE quoted bible verses? You cried and ran away the LAST TIME so... just say the word, bitch. the OT is a fucking cornucopia of irony for you pharisee christians...

feel free to post a video or audio recording of ANY Christian preacher in the last 50 years calling for the killing of anyone. Oh, and you don't get to count skinheads or loony tunes Koresh as Christian preachers either. I'm talking about preachers with real churches. Even as crazy a racist as Jeremiah Wright is, he doesn't call for killing people in the name of God.

way to narrow your criteria of those who you KNOW have indeed preached hatred!





again, your focus on "REAL" churches works both ways. muslims can claim the same narrow definition just as you do when faced with the wide range of personal interpretation of their faith, killer.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgL8FDUtkWQ]YouTube - ‪Pat Robertson - Islam Not A Religion‬‎[/ame]

Correct, I would count Robertson as a legitimate preacher and have no problem using the same criteria for Muslims. I would not count some loony tune so called Muslim who is marrying 20 different 12 year olds as a real Muslim Imam.

This man however is considered to be a mainstream Muslim cleric. Can you show me a Christian counterpart?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNEFM0XQo4I]YouTube - ‪Cleric Preaching Violence‬‎[/ame]

 

[Modbert]

No. I just don't believe he was a self-destructive pacifist who would wish to see his beliefs turned into a suicide pact.

The Bible upon which you base your understanding of Jesus was compiled hundreds of years after his death by a politicized group in Nicea. Much of the content was written by people who never met him.

People read into the Bible what they wish to find. It is chockful of inconsistencies - which makes it very maleable.

Of course you don't believe he was a pacifist, that would make your justifications for violence seem hallow. You're right when it is full of inconsistencies, however Jesus never advocated physical violence. Turning a table over means Jesus wants his followers to kill others for whatever reason?

 

[boedicca]

Modbert - your lack of historical knowledge is showing.

 

[ConHog]

HAHAHA!@


oh yes.. I know all about the new testement... but, you don't separate yourself from the OT when using Leviticus to marginalize fags, do you? No, I didn't think so. You take both as your written word of god and use both when reading scripture. If this was about jesus fucking christ then you STILL wouldn't have anything to say because you'd be judging and NOT turning the other cheek while putting down your sword, Peter... Again, you silly fucking dogma junkies pick and choose what YOU think validates your opinions despite what we all know is in the bible.

poor guy... need a tissue? umadbro?

It's kinda funny that on the one hand you argue that the Bible tells us to kill but then on the other hand tell us that the Bible says to turn the other cheek. Has to be one or the other...........

The nature of both covenants has been mentioned already. However, again, you don't segregate the bible from the OT, do you? of course you don't, you disingenuous fuck.

In other words, you just feel that it's ok to claim that both apply?

 

[Shogun]

And more:

Luke 12:49-53

I have come to set fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until the ordeal is over! Do you suppose I came to establish peace on earth? No indeed, I have come to bring division. For from now on, five members of a family will be divided, three against two and two against three; father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother…

Matthew 10:21-22, 34-39

Brother will betray brother to death, and the father his child; children will turn against their parents and send them to their death. All will hate you for your allegiance to me; but the man who holds out to the end will be saved….You must not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a son’s wife against her mother-in-law; and a man will find his enemies under his own roof. No man is worthy of me who cares more for father or mother than for me; no man is worthy of me who cares for son or daughter; no man is worthy of me who does not take up his cross and waLuke in my footsteps. By gaining his life a man will lose it; by losing his life for my sake, he will gain it.[/i]



Jesus associated with Zealots for a reason, bub.

Again, I don't see any calls for violence. The second quote tells that Jesus will cause families to fight because of their belief in him. However, he says by losing your life for his sake, through non-violence, you will gain a place in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Though I'm not sure how you think two or three verses makes everything else invalid, no matter how much you wish to take it out of context.

I can't help if if you aren't able to read for comprehension and retention.

jesus kicked moneychangers from the temple for defiling the temple. he said no where to react violently to transgressors; indeed, turning over some tables is hardly a call for validated violence. It's sad that you seem to have missed the point of that story.

Also, your previous mention of bringing flame to the world and putting brother against brother was a metaphor for a change in spiritual belief. Not, as you assume, some holy war conducted against non-believers. Note that no where in the NT will you find jesus calling people to war with anyone outside of the challenge of his spiritual message. We all know his quote to peter striking the ear off of the roman when they came for him. We all understand why he told peter to put away his sword. It's too bad you missed that day in sunday school.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

so does the bible...

.... do you REALLY want me to fuck you in the ass with MORE quoted bible verses? You cried and ran away the LAST TIME so... just say the word, bitch. the OT is a fucking cornucopia of irony for you pharisee christians...

Really you dont know to much about the new covenant concept do you?
Christ fullfilled the law,the law never saved anyone, that was the point. No one could follow the law. Salvation required faith not obedience.

HAHAHA!@


oh yes.. I know all about the new testement... but, you don't separate yourself from the OT when using Leviticus to marginalize fags, do you? No, I didn't think so. You take both as your written word of god and use both when reading scripture. If this was about jesus fucking christ then you STILL wouldn't have anything to say because you'd be judging and NOT turning the other cheek while putting down your sword, Peter... Again, you silly fucking dogma junkies pick and choose what YOU think validates your opinions despite what we all know is in the bible.

poor guy... need a tissue? umadbro?

When have I ever "marginalize fags"? The OT is history nothing more.

 

[Shogun]

It's kinda funny that on the one hand you argue that the Bible tells us to kill but then on the other hand tell us that the Bible says to turn the other cheek. Has to be one or the other...........

The nature of both covenants has been mentioned already. However, again, you don't segregate the bible from the OT, do you? of course you don't, you disingenuous fuck.

In other words, you just feel that it's ok to claim that both apply?

indeed, regarding the OT and the NT, yes. Clearly, you are not a bible scholar. Tell me, have you even READ the bible?



wow...

I'm embarrassed for you.

 

[ConHog]

The nature of both covenants has been mentioned already. However, again, you don't segregate the bible from the OT, do you? of course you don't, you disingenuous fuck.

In other words, you just feel that it's ok to claim that both apply?

indeed, regarding the OT and the NT, yes. Clearly, you are not a bible scholar. Tell me, have you even READ the bible?



wow...

I'm embarrassed for you.

So, tell me oh great scholar, how are we supposed to know when to kill and when to turn the other cheek? I'm confused.

 

[Shogun]

Really you dont know to much about the new covenant concept do you?
Christ fullfilled the law,the law never saved anyone, that was the point. No one could follow the law. Salvation required faith not obedience.

HAHAHA!@


oh yes.. I know all about the new testement... but, you don't separate yourself from the OT when using Leviticus to marginalize fags, do you? No, I didn't think so. You take both as your written word of god and use both when reading scripture. If this was about jesus fucking christ then you STILL wouldn't have anything to say because you'd be judging and NOT turning the other cheek while putting down your sword, Peter... Again, you silly fucking dogma junkies pick and choose what YOU think validates your opinions despite what we all know is in the bible.

poor guy... need a tissue? umadbro?

When have I ever "marginalize fags"? The OT is history nothing more.

I've seen you post in lots of threads regarding gay marriage and the restriction thereof. Is it pretend time already?

and no, if you think that the OT is nothing more than history to the NT then you've just blasphemed against half of the bible. congrats!

 

[Shogun]

In other words, you just feel that it's ok to claim that both apply?

indeed, regarding the OT and the NT, yes. Clearly, you are not a bible scholar. Tell me, have you even READ the bible?



wow...

I'm embarrassed for you.

So, tell me oh great scholar, how are we supposed to know when to kill and when to turn the other cheek? I'm confused.

far be it for me to point out the hilariously long history of conflicted biblical interpretation, fool!

 

[ConHog]

indeed, regarding the OT and the NT, yes. Clearly, you are not a bible scholar. Tell me, have you even READ the bible?



wow...

I'm embarrassed for you.

So, tell me oh great scholar, how are we supposed to know when to kill and when to turn the other cheek? I'm confused.

far be it for me to point out the hilariously long history of conflicted biblical interpretation, fool!

I'm not conflicted at all.

Number 6

Where's the Muslim equivalent?

 

[boedicca]

Again, I don't see any calls for violence. The second quote tells that Jesus will cause families to fight because of their belief in him. However, he says by losing your life for his sake, through non-violence, you will gain a place in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Though I'm not sure how you think two or three verses makes everything else invalid, no matter how much you wish to take it out of context.

I can't help if if you aren't able to read for comprehension and retention.

jesus kicked moneychangers from the temple for defiling the temple. he said no where to react violently to transgressors; indeed, turning over some tables is hardly a call for validated violence. It's sad that you seem to have missed the point of that story.

Also, your previous mention of bringing flame to the world and putting brother against brother was a metaphor for a change in spiritual belief. Not, as you assume, some holy war conducted against non-believers. Note that no where in the NT will you find jesus calling people to war with anyone outside of the challenge of his spiritual message. We all know his quote to peter striking the ear off of the roman when they came for him. We all understand why he told peter to put away his sword. It's too bad you missed that day in sunday school.

Again:


And more:

Luke 12:49-53

I have come to set fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until the ordeal is over! Do you suppose I came to establish peace on earth? No indeed, I have come to bring division. For from now on, five members of a family will be divided, three against two and two against three; father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother…

Matthew 10:21-22, 34-39

Brother will betray brother to death, and the father his child; children will turn against their parents and send them to their death. All will hate you for your allegiance to me; but the man who holds out to the end will be saved….You must not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a son’s wife against her mother-in-law; and a man will find his enemies under his own roof. No man is worthy of me who cares more for father or mother than for me; no man is worthy of me who cares for son or daughter; no man is worthy of me who does not take up his cross and walk in my footsteps. By gaining his life a man will lose it; by losing his life for my sake, he will gain it.



Jesus associated with Zealots for a reason, bub.

 

[Shogun]

So, tell me oh great scholar, how are we supposed to know when to kill and when to turn the other cheek? I'm confused.

far be it for me to point out the hilariously long history of conflicted biblical interpretation, fool!

I'm not conflicted at all.

Number 6

Where's the Muslim equivalent?

maybe you should read the REST of exodus, you dumb bastard...

Exodus 32

25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."






see, THIS is the kind of shit i'm talking about. You clearly have no fucking clue about the bible.

 

[Shogun]

I can't help if if you aren't able to read for comprehension and retention.

jesus kicked moneychangers from the temple for defiling the temple. he said no where to react violently to transgressors; indeed, turning over some tables is hardly a call for validated violence. It's sad that you seem to have missed the point of that story.

Also, your previous mention of bringing flame to the world and putting brother against brother was a metaphor for a change in spiritual belief. Not, as you assume, some holy war conducted against non-believers. Note that no where in the NT will you find jesus calling people to war with anyone outside of the challenge of his spiritual message. We all know his quote to peter striking the ear off of the roman when they came for him. We all understand why he told peter to put away his sword. It's too bad you missed that day in sunday school.

Again:


And more:

Luke 12:49-53

I have come to set fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until the ordeal is over! Do you suppose I came to establish peace on earth? No indeed, I have come to bring division. For from now on, five members of a family will be divided, three against two and two against three; father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother…

Matthew 10:21-22, 34-39

Brother will betray brother to death, and the father his child; children will turn against their parents and send them to their death. All will hate you for your allegiance to me; but the man who holds out to the end will be saved….You must not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a son’s wife against her mother-in-law; and a man will find his enemies under his own roof. No man is worthy of me who cares more for father or mother than for me; no man is worthy of me who cares for son or daughter; no man is worthy of me who does not take up his cross and walk in my footsteps. By gaining his life a man will lose it; by losing his life for my sake, he will gain it.



Jesus associated with Zealots for a reason, bub.

Again, you clearly have no idea that jebus was talking metaphorically about a conflict of spirituality.



So, bible scholar, care to cite the passage in which jebus gathered his army and pillaged Rome?



Praytell, go ahead and cite scripture which indicates a conflict with his message of peace otherwise... I look forward to reading how you invalidate his command to forgive others for their trangression as you have been forgiven. Please, show me where this grand battle finale is written!





oh man.. seriously.

 

[ConHog]

far be it for me to point out the hilariously long history of conflicted biblical interpretation, fool!

I'm not conflicted at all.

Number 6

Where's the Muslim equivalent?

maybe you should read the REST of exodus, you dumb bastard...

Exodus 32

25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."






see, THIS is the kind of shit i'm talking about. You clearly have no fucking clue about the bible.

Let's see, if God comes to me in the form of a burning bush and commands me to kill, I will do so, but if God "comes to me" through a crazy minister and commands me to kill I think I will ignore him.


However, this still doesn't explain how you can say that we should both kill and turn the other other cheek? Do I turn the other cheek and THEN kill or can I skip that step depending on circumstances, or what?

 

[Shogun]

So, tell me oh great scholar, how are we supposed to know when to kill and when to turn the other cheek? I'm confused.

far be it for me to point out the hilariously long history of conflicted biblical interpretation, fool!

I'm not conflicted at all.

Number 6

Where's the Muslim equivalent?

ps.. THIS is Numbers 6 in it's entirety...

Numbers 6 (King James Version)

Numbers 6

1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:

3He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

4All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

5All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.

6All the days that he separateth himself unto the LORD he shall come at no dead body.

7He shall not make himself unclean for his father, or for his mother, for his brother, or for his sister, when they die: because the consecration of his God is upon his head.

8All the days of his separation he is holy unto the LORD.

9And if any man die very suddenly by him, and he hath defiled the head of his consecration; then he shall shave his head in the day of his cleansing, on the seventh day shall he shave it.

10And on the eighth day he shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons, to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:

11And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, and make an atonement for him, for that he sinned by the dead, and shall hallow his head that same day.

12And he shall consecrate unto the LORD the days of his separation, and shall bring a lamb of the first year for a trespass offering: but the days that were before shall be lost, because his separation was defiled.

13And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:

14And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,

15And a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and wafers of unleavened bread anointed with oil, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings.

16And the priest shall bring them before the LORD, and shall offer his sin offering, and his burnt offering:

17And he shall offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread: the priest shall offer also his meat offering, and his drink offering.

18And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings.

19And the priest shall take the sodden shoulder of the ram, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazarite, after the hair of his separation is shaven:

20And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.

21This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.

22And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

23Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them,

24The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

25The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

26The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

27And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.


Numbers 6 - PassageLookup - King James Version - BibleGateway.com



WHOOPSY!

 

[theDoctorisIn]

I'm not conflicted at all.

Number 6

Where's the Muslim equivalent?

maybe you should read the REST of exodus, you dumb bastard...

Exodus 32

25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."






see, THIS is the kind of shit i'm talking about. You clearly have no fucking clue about the bible.

Let's see, if God comes to me in the form of a burning bush and commands me to kill, I will do so, but if God "comes to me" through a crazy minister and commands me to kill I think I will ignore him.


However, this still doesn't explain how you can say that we should both kill and turn the other other cheek? Do I turn the other cheek and THEN kill or can I skip that step depending on circumstances, or what?

That's very good, I'm glad to hear it.

If a crazy minister told me that God told him to tell me to kill people, I wouldn't listen either.

Why is it so hard for you to except that a majority of Muslims would do the same as you and I, and NOT listen?

 

[ConHog]

far be it for me to point out the hilariously long history of conflicted biblical interpretation, fool!

I'm not conflicted at all.

Number 6

Where's the Muslim equivalent?

ps.. THIS is Numbers 6 in it's entirety...

Numbers 6 (King James Version)

Numbers 6

1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:

3He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

4All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

5All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.

6All the days that he separateth himself unto the LORD he shall come at no dead body.

7He shall not make himself unclean for his father, or for his mother, for his brother, or for his sister, when they die: because the consecration of his God is upon his head.

8All the days of his separation he is holy unto the LORD.

9And if any man die very suddenly by him, and he hath defiled the head of his consecration; then he shall shave his head in the day of his cleansing, on the seventh day shall he shave it.

10And on the eighth day he shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons, to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:

11And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, and make an atonement for him, for that he sinned by the dead, and shall hallow his head that same day.

12And he shall consecrate unto the LORD the days of his separation, and shall bring a lamb of the first year for a trespass offering: but the days that were before shall be lost, because his separation was defiled.

13And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:

14And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,

15And a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and wafers of unleavened bread anointed with oil, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings.

16And the priest shall bring them before the LORD, and shall offer his sin offering, and his burnt offering:

17And he shall offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread: the priest shall offer also his meat offering, and his drink offering.

18And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings.

19And the priest shall take the sodden shoulder of the ram, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazarite, after the hair of his separation is shaven:

20And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.

21This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.

22And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

23Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them,

24The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

25The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

26The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

27And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.


Numbers 6 - PassageLookup - King James Version - BibleGateway.com



WHOOPSY!

What in the hell does the book of Numbers have to do with Thou Shalt Not Kill?