Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[Hossfly]

No surprise. You believe nothing but Israeli propaganda.

Fine.

Educate me.

Produce your evidence.

Polling or plebiscite results showing Sabra preferences, from an objective and credible source, dating back to the 1947-1948 timeframe.

Here's your chance to prove 'Israeli propaganda' wrong in the context of Sabra preferences, as you previously claimed.

"...The deal was for the Palestinians to give half of their country to foreigners. Name some other country who would accept such a deal. I await your response."

If your choices are:

1. Agree to a division of the land and a separation of peoples, or...

2. Be defeated and slowly die (as a prospective polity) over 65 years in refugee shit-holes

...then, most sane folks would conclude that they chose poorly.

Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem (1867-1948)

With the occupation of Palestine by His Britannic Majesty's Forces and after the confirmation of the Mandate over Palestine by the League of Nations, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration of 1917 a new era opened in the history of the Holy Land. We Orthodox Jews whose forefathers promoted the development of the Jewish Yishuv throughout the generations, who for many centuries constituted the most important element of the Yishuv in the Holy Land, were always on the very best of terms with all sections of the Community. We had hoped that the real purpose of the Mandate would be the promotion of a "Home" to which Jews who lived in the Diaspora might be able to return as their Home Land in order to live here in accordance with the Commandments of the Almighty. It was upon the first appearance of the Zionist organization as a political entity, created in and by the spirit of reform, a spirit to which Orthodox Jewry is so utterly opposed that the idea of the foundation of a Jewish state in the Holy Land was first advanced.

We furthermore wish to express our definite opposition to a Jewish state in any part of Palestine.

Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem (1867-1948) | True Torah Jews

Don't tell us that Tinnie reads the NeoNazi/Islamofascist hate sites!!! These True Torah Jews are some of the favorite Jews of the hate site, and I can't begin to tell you how many times the anti-Semites have dug them out. Tinnie, why not tell us how large a group these True Torah Jews are? I heard their number is very small. Maybe if Tinnie grows a beard, he can go with these True Torah Jews when they visit those crazies in Iran again. Meanwhile, since these True Torah Jews believe that when the Messiah comes, the only ones left in Israel will be the Jews. Perhaps when Tinnie accompanies them to Iran, while on the plane he can ask them where all the other people in Israel are going to disappear to.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Fine.

Educate me.

Produce your evidence.

Polling or plebiscite results showing Sabra preferences, from an objective and credible source, dating back to the 1947-1948 timeframe.

Here's your chance to prove 'Israeli propaganda' wrong in the context of Sabra preferences, as you previously claimed.



If your choices are:

1. Agree to a division of the land and a separation of peoples, or...

2. Be defeated and slowly die (as a prospective polity) over 65 years in refugee shit-holes

...then, most sane folks would conclude that they chose poorly.

Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem (1867-1948)

With the occupation of Palestine by His Britannic Majesty's Forces and after the confirmation of the Mandate over Palestine by the League of Nations, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration of 1917 a new era opened in the history of the Holy Land. We Orthodox Jews whose forefathers promoted the development of the Jewish Yishuv throughout the generations, who for many centuries constituted the most important element of the Yishuv in the Holy Land, were always on the very best of terms with all sections of the Community. We had hoped that the real purpose of the Mandate would be the promotion of a "Home" to which Jews who lived in the Diaspora might be able to return as their Home Land in order to live here in accordance with the Commandments of the Almighty. It was upon the first appearance of the Zionist organization as a political entity, created in and by the spirit of reform, a spirit to which Orthodox Jewry is so utterly opposed that the idea of the foundation of a Jewish state in the Holy Land was first advanced.

We furthermore wish to express our definite opposition to a Jewish state in any part of Palestine.

Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem (1867-1948) | True Torah Jews

Don't tell us that Tinnie reads the NeoNazi/Islamofascist hate sites!!! These True Torah Jews are some of the favorite Jews of the hate site, and I can't begin to tell you how many times the anti-Semites have dug them out. Tinnie, why not tell us how large a group these True Torah Jews are? I heard their number is very small. Maybe if Tinnie grows a beard, he can go with these True Torah Jews when they visit those crazies in Iran again. Meanwhile, since these True Torah Jews believe that when the Messiah comes, the only ones left in Israel will be the Jews. Perhaps when Tinnie accompanies them to Iran, while on the plane he can ask them where all the other people in Israel are going to disappear to.

Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem hated Jews?

 

[Hossfly]

Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem (1867-1948)

With the occupation of Palestine by His Britannic Majesty's Forces and after the confirmation of the Mandate over Palestine by the League of Nations, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration of 1917 a new era opened in the history of the Holy Land. We Orthodox Jews whose forefathers promoted the development of the Jewish Yishuv throughout the generations, who for many centuries constituted the most important element of the Yishuv in the Holy Land, were always on the very best of terms with all sections of the Community. We had hoped that the real purpose of the Mandate would be the promotion of a "Home" to which Jews who lived in the Diaspora might be able to return as their Home Land in order to live here in accordance with the Commandments of the Almighty. It was upon the first appearance of the Zionist organization as a political entity, created in and by the spirit of reform, a spirit to which Orthodox Jewry is so utterly opposed that the idea of the foundation of a Jewish state in the Holy Land was first advanced.

We furthermore wish to express our definite opposition to a Jewish state in any part of Palestine.

Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem (1867-1948) | True Torah Jews

Don't tell us that Tinnie reads the NeoNazi/Islamofascist hate sites!!! These True Torah Jews are some of the favorite Jews of the hate site, and I can't begin to tell you how many times the anti-Semites have dug them out. Tinnie, why not tell us how large a group these True Torah Jews are? I heard their number is very small. Maybe if Tinnie grows a beard, he can go with these True Torah Jews when they visit those crazies in Iran again. Meanwhile, since these True Torah Jews believe that when the Messiah comes, the only ones left in Israel will be the Jews. Perhaps when Tinnie accompanies them to Iran, while on the plane he can ask them where all the other people in Israel are going to disappear to.

Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem hated Jews?

Did I say that, Tinnie? I was talking about the website. This is how you get your facts all screwed up when you talk about the mythical country of Palestine with it's mythical borders and it's mythical people. You assume things because you don't comprehend facts and then proceed to make an ass out of yourself.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Don't tell us that Tinnie reads the NeoNazi/Islamofascist hate sites!!! These True Torah Jews are some of the favorite Jews of the hate site, and I can't begin to tell you how many times the anti-Semites have dug them out. Tinnie, why not tell us how large a group these True Torah Jews are? I heard their number is very small. Maybe if Tinnie grows a beard, he can go with these True Torah Jews when they visit those crazies in Iran again. Meanwhile, since these True Torah Jews believe that when the Messiah comes, the only ones left in Israel will be the Jews. Perhaps when Tinnie accompanies them to Iran, while on the plane he can ask them where all the other people in Israel are going to disappear to.

Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem hated Jews?

Did I say that, Tinnie? I was talking about the website. This is how you get your facts all screwed up when you talk about the mythical country of Palestine with it's mythical borders and it's mythical people. You assume things because you don't comprehend facts and then proceed to make an ass out of yourself.

Palestine was called a country ten times in the Mandate for Palestine document.

One would think that they would know.

Here is a map of Palestine. Note the international borders.

 

[Hossfly]

Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem hated Jews?

Did I say that, Tinnie? I was talking about the website. This is how you get your facts all screwed up when you talk about the mythical country of Palestine with it's mythical borders and it's mythical people. You assume things because you don't comprehend facts and then proceed to make an ass out of yourself.

Palestine was called a country ten times in the Mandate for Palestine document.

One would think that they would know.

Here is a map of Palestine. Note the international borders.

What happened then? Who dropped the ball. Who missed an opportunity?

 

[toastman]

Tinmore, thatis a map of the proposed partition plan..

Show us the treaties or agreements that gave Palestine international borders

 

[Kondor3]

"...We furthermore wish to express our definite opposition to a Jewish state in any part of Palestine. Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem (1867-1948) | True Torah Jews"

Well, Tinny, I asked you whether a plebiscite or poll or referendum of the Sabra had been taken during the 1947-1948 timeframe, by an objective and credible source, in order to reinforce your claim that those same Sabra stood against the declaration of a Jewish State.

You come back at me with a Personal Statement from some Chief Rabbi of some faction or another of JUdaism-at-large within the City of Jerusalem.

I do not know enough about the percentage of Sabras represented by this fellow, nor whether he spoke for the majority of his own followers, never mind the majority of Sabra at-large.

Do YOU know what percentage of the total Sabra population that this fellow was speaking for?

Your 'quotation' is a far, far cry from the empirical data that I asked for... results of a poll or referendum or plebiscite regarding Jewish Independence, taken amongst the Sabra themselves and properly tallied and validated by British or other competent authority, and recorded and faithfully preserved for our analysis in the present day.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Palestine was called a country ten times in the Mandate for Palestine document..."

I can call my cocker spaniel a cow, ten times on a piece of paper, but that does not make her a cow.

"...One would think that they would know..."

But these were outsiders, with no right to do anything in regard to Palestine - or so you, yourself, have said, scores - hundreds - of times, on these boards.

And yet we are supposed to trust these outsiders, in this context, to define Palestine as a country rather than as an unincorporated, loosely-organized former Ottoman province which was being relaxed from British (LON/UN) control?

How is it that these European Outsiders are not competent for ONE purpose (empowering the Jews to divide-up this unincorporated land) but they ARE authoritatively competent for purposes of labeling Palesine as a so-called 'country', because it advances your agenda?

Goose, meet gander.

A country that has never before experienced autonomy is no country at all... rather, merely the raw material from which provinces and smaller nation-states can be sliced-off and animated.

No sale on the 'country' thing, I'm afraid; certainly not using some flyweight rationale such as the one just served up.

I mean... dude... that was lame... and downright embarrassing... although I understand that in your situation, there's not much left to do but to grasp at straws, and hope that every once-in-a-while you pull one off, with the other side asleep at the switch.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...We furthermore wish to express our definite opposition to a Jewish state in any part of Palestine. Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem (1867-1948) | True Torah Jews"

Well, Tinny, I asked you whether a plebiscite or poll or referendum of the Sabra had been taken during the 1947-1948 timeframe, by an objective and credible source, in order to reinforce your claim that those same Sabra stood against the declaration of a Jewish State.

You come back at me with a Personal Statement from some Chief Rabbi of some faction or another of JUdaism-at-large within the City of Jerusalem.

I do not know enough about the percentage of Sabras represented by this fellow, nor whether he spoke for the majority of his own followers, never mind the majority of Sabra at-large.

Do YOU know what percentage of the total Sabra population that this fellow was speaking for?

Your 'quotation' is a far, far cry from the empirical data that I asked for... results of a poll or referendum or plebiscite regarding Jewish Independence, taken amongst the Sabra themselves and properly tallied and validated by British or other competent authority, and recorded and faithfully preserved for our analysis in the present day.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enTbBx622-8]85 sleepless Gaza Jerusalem.divx - YouTube[/ame]

 

[toastman]

Tinmore, Palestine was NOT a country during the period of time you are talking about (was Palestine EVER a country?)
How the fuck could it be a country if:
The Palestinian Arabs has no autonomy
The region was controlled by the British after defeating the Ottoman Empire in WW1
There was a partition plan in 1947 that was supposed to MAKE a Palestinian country
There were no internationally recognized borders
No recognized declaration of Independence
and most important of all, no mention of a country called Palestine

When we tell you that Palestine was not a country, this isn't one of those issues that is up for debate. What's the matter with you , really ??????? Your continuous denial over something so fuckin simple makes you look like a 9 year old

 

[Kondor3]

"..."

Just give me the Cliffs' Notes version, Tinny; what are you trying to say by posting that 40-minutes-long video?

Does the video provide an answer to the question of what percentage of Sabra were represented by this Rabbi's personal statement?

...and, carried-over from the previous interaction... the previous question...

Where is your empirical data - results of a plebiscite, referendum or poll of Sabra in 1947-1948 on the subject of an independent Jewish State, in order to substantiate your claim that the Sabra opposed an independent Jewish State?

If you have the answers, produce them, in digestible form.

If you do not have the answers, please stop wasting time, and simply say so.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"..."

Just give me the Cliffs' Notes version, Tinny; what are you trying to say by posting that 40-minutes-long video?

Does the video provide an answer to the question of what percentage of Sabra were represented by this Rabbi's personal statement?

...and, carried-over from the previous interaction... the previous question...

Where is your empirical data - results of a plebiscite, referendum or poll of Sabra in 1947-1948 on the subject of an independent Jewish State, in order to substantiate your claim that the Sabra opposed an independent Jewish State?

If you have the answers, produce them, in digestible form.

If you do not have the answers, please stop wasting time, and simply say so.

One thing that is consistent among Israel supporters. They refuse to learn anything.

 

[Kondor3]

"...One thing that is consistent among Israel supporters. They refuse to learn anything."

Your response is non sequitur and entirely inadequate to the task at hand.

You are asked to provide hard, empirical data, as you have so often asked of others...

And, when pressed to produce, in order to substantiate your claim about Sabra rejection in 1948 of the formation of a Jewish State...

Rather than hard data, you serve-up present-day marshmallow fluff...

I expected nothing better and was therefore not disappointed, but you blew your opportunity to substantiate your claim.

As expected.

Epic Fail.

 

[theliq]

Did I say that, Tinnie? I was talking about the website. This is how you get your facts all screwed up when you talk about the mythical country of Palestine with it's mythical borders and it's mythical people. You assume things because you don't comprehend facts and then proceed to make an ass out of yourself.

Palestine was called a country ten times in the Mandate for Palestine document.

One would think that they would know.

Here is a map of Palestine. Note the international borders.

What happened then? Who dropped the ball. Who missed an opportunity?

You know why Hoss,"Bribery,Deceit,Deception,Intimidation and Cunning" AND YOU KNOW BY WHOM Hosss.

YOU SHOULD ALL NOT

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Paul, let's be (at least a little bit) honest here.

One thing that is consistent among Israel supporters. They refuse to learn anything.

(COMMENT)

I think that a vast majority of your commentary and opinions are read here. I believe that a vast majority of sherrimunnerlyn's (where ever she has gone) commentaries and opinions were read here. In fact, I think that nearly every anti-Israel (or pro-Palestinian) commentary is given credit where credit is due.

Just as neither side of the Arab-Israeli conflict is perfectly correct in everything they have done, --- so it is with the discussion here --- and the presentations.

Learning is as much dependent on the presentation of the facts as it is in the expression of confidence in the material presented. When that material is tainted, it has an impact on future presentations and the confidence that it holds. And I will be honest, in that I often try not to let the pro-Palestinian propaganda you often present taint the salient facts you present later; but, it is hard. AND, I often find it difficult to work through the frivolous points you make (like on the Map issue and borders/boundaries); that sidetrack the discussion.

The suggestion that (in general) the pro-Israel component of the discussion "refuse to learn" is simply inaccurate. When you mix some minor fact with some significant propaganda - the impact of the propaganda tends to overshadow the relevant fact you present. Don't mix the two (propaganda and fact). We are all quite capable of "learning" and are quite interested in what you have to say, if you would just present the facts or point of discussion in a logical order and a coherent way.

Finally, don't confuse analysis and disagreement with a "refuse to learn" mind set. I have learned that the pro-Palestinian movement has elements within it that firmly believe that Palestine was sovereign to the Arab Palestinian; with some thinking it happened at the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and with some that believe it was sovereign with the end of the British Mandate. Yes, I have learned this. But I don't agree with either version. And that is not the same thing as "refuse to learn."

I recommend that you reassess that perception of your opinion (refuse to learn). I also recommend that you adjust your dependence on the use of inflammatory language (apartheid, racism, nazi, etc) as it changes the confidence interval in the presentation of your commentary and opinion. As an example, when I use the words "insurgent" or "terrorism" --- I use them based on the basis that either the organization, event or action fits a definition or description in a professional guide, manual, publication, law, etc, and not some layman's dictionary. I don't hunt for a specific interpretation that I can cherry-pick to fit the argument. Since you were in South Africa in the pre-Mandela era, you know very damn well that "apartheid" was something totally different from the conditions and relations that exist between the non-Israel and Israel. So, when we talk about "learning" --- let's apply it equally to both sides.

Just My Opinion, Very Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

theliq, et al,

Let's see.

Palestine was called a country ten times in the Mandate for Palestine document.

One would think that they would know.

Here is a map of Palestine. Note the international borders.

What happened then? Who dropped the ball. Who missed an opportunity?

You know why Hoss,"Bribery,Deceit,Deception,Intimidation and Cunning" AND YOU KNOW BY WHOM Hosss.

YOU SHOULD ALL NOT

(OBSERVATION)

The representative designated by the Government of the United Kingdom was Sir Alexander Cadogan. The representative designated by the Jewish Agency for Palestine was Mr. Moshe Shertok. As regards the Arab Higher Committee, the following telegraphic response was received by the Secretary-General on 19 January:

“ARAB HIGHER COMMITTEE IS DETERMINED PERSIST IN REJECTION PARTITION AND IN REFUSAL RECOGNIZE UNO RESOLUTION THIS RESPECT AND ANYTHING DERIVING THEREFROM. FOR THESE REASONS IT IS UNABLE ACCEPT INVITATION”​

No further communication has been addressed to or received from the Arab Higher Committee by the Commission. The Commission will, at the appropriate time, set forth in a separate document its views with regard to the implementations of this refusal by the Arab Higher Committee.

SOURCE: A/AC.21/7 29 January 1948

This was the beginning of what most people refer to as the 65 years of conflict.

In fairness (my internet version of equal time and full disclosure) there is a document that is little appreciated and seldom read that must be shared at this point. I have used it before, but not in a while.

Letter and Statement Submitted
to the
Secretary-General of the United Nations by the Delegation of the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine
and
Transmitted for the Information of the
Conciliation Commission​

On the 29th of November 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nation’s passed a resolution recommending the partitioning of Palestine, and the establishment of a Jewish State therein. That resolution disappointed the Arabs, and destroyed the hope and faith which they had put in the United Nations. They saw that the recommendations to partition Palestine was contrary to the aims, principles, and spirit of the United Nations charter, and their reaction was one of deep concern and anxiety. They therefore rejected the resolution, and declared their refusal to be bound by it, or by anything deriving therefrom. The said resolution not only failed to respect Arab demands, but was in complete violation of the spirit of the charter, contrary to the principle of self-determination, and embodied the elements of aggression and injustice. For the Arabs of Palestine are the real owners the country, and they compose by far the greatest majority of its ‘‘lawful inhabitants.

----- @ -----​

The Arabs believe that the United Nations Organization which is the author of the partition plan, is responsible for the catastrophe that has befallen the Palestinian refugees. As such it is the duty of the United Nations to remove the injustice done to the Arabs. We submit that by removing the cause of the problem of the refugees, the United Nations will have substantially solved their serious problem, and the only and sure way to solve the problem, and remove its causes, is to permit the return of the refugees to their homes where they should be guaranteed to live freely in peace and in prosperity. On their return, they must immediately be given back all their properties, whether movable or immovable, and for such damage or loss as may have resulted from Jewish terrorism and violence adequate indemnity must be paid to them.

SOURCE: A/AC.25/Org/9 4 May 1949

I believe that, in the history yet to be written, this document will play prominently in the evaluation of the subsequent War that was to follow, AND the six decades (plus) of conflict that that ensued. It is a unique perspective presented by the Arab League via the reconstituted Arab Higher Committee.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[docmauser1]

Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem (1867-1948) With the occupation of Palestine by His Britannic Majesty's Forces and after the confirmation of the Mandate over Palestine by the League of Nations, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration of 1917 a new era opened in the history of the Holy Land. We Orthodox Jews whose forefathers promoted the development of the Jewish Yishuv throughout the generations, who for many centuries constituted the most important element of the Yishuv in the Holy Land, were always on the very best of terms with all sections of the Community. We had hoped that the real purpose of the Mandate would be the promotion of a "Home" to which Jews who lived in the Diaspora might be able to return as their Home Land in order to live here in accordance with the Commandments of the Almighty. It was upon the first appearance of the Zionist organization as a political entity, created in and by the spirit of reform, a spirit to which Orthodox Jewry is so utterly opposed that the idea of the foundation of a Jewish state in the Holy Land was first advanced. We furthermore wish to express our definite opposition to a Jewish state in any part of Palestine.

Cool. Is it the same rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, who stated in his written presentation to the United Nations special committee in Palestine in 1947

• The ancient right of the People of Israel to the land of Israel.
• Unbroken settlement by Jews throughout the ages.
• From the time of King Solomon to our very days the Holy Land was either united with Trans-Jordan or attached to Syria or Turkey. Western Palestine was never a single and independent entity and certainly a part of that cannot possibly constitute an independent state, as envisaged in the various plans that are discussed from time to time.
  However, the basic reason for our opposition to an Independent Jewish state as that in prevailing circumstances the officially recognised representation of the Jewish people does not consider the authority of the Holy Law as binding in the public affairs of the Jewish people.,

eh?

 

[Hoffstra]

when it comes to civil and human rights, Israel is much WORSE than South Africa.

 

[toastman]

when it comes to civil and human rights, Israel is much WORSE than South Africa.

What a load of crap !!!!

 

[RoccoR]

docmauser1, et al,

This is a variation on a theme.

• The ancient right of the People of Israel to the land of Israel.
• Unbroken settlement by Jews throughout the ages.
• From the time of King Solomon to our very days the Holy Land was either united with Trans-Jordan or attached to Syria or Turkey. Western Palestine was never a single and independent entity and certainly a part of that cannot possibly constitute an independent state, as envisaged in the various plans that are discussed from time to time.
  However, the basic reason for our opposition to an Independent Jewish state as that in prevailing circumstances the officially recognised representation of the Jewish people does not consider the authority of the Holy Law as binding in the public affairs of the Jewish people.,

eh?

(COMMENT)

The theme, of course, is the "concept of secularism" wherein both the government and religious sect agree to be officially neutral in matters outside the domain of the other. The state is neutral on religious matters and the religious sect remains neutral on matters of state.

It is actually a very ancient theme, dating back to a time before the crucification.

Matthew 22:21

"Caesar's," they replied. Then he said to them, "So give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."​

Luke 20:25

He said to them, "Then give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."​

It is the idea that ancient religious based claims cannot be used to establish matters of state.

Most Respectfully,
R