CDZ Is kneeling the most effective protest?

[Votto]

What I find odd is when Tim Tebow kneeled in prayer he was mercilessly attacked by the media, but kneeling for the anthem is acceptable. The symbolism of one is more offensive than the other, though the paying public disagrees.

Of all of Trumps goals and accomplishments, his calling out and challenging of the media might be his greatest contribution in the long run. This point must chap the hide of so many who had been given a free pass.

I will say in my opinion, kneeling for the flag in protest is not the most effective form of protest. Not by a long shot.

Why the hell are we still bringing up tebow? Completely different situation.

Teebow was attacked for praying on the football field as he kneeled down to do it He was lambasted as divisive. It was shocking reading the hateful comments about him.

However, Kap kneeling down during the anthem is OK?

Interesting.

What I also find interesting is looking at old picture during the Civil Rights movement. Blacks were well dressed, respectful, and had Bibles in their hands. They also were successful in implementing laws to help the black cause. Their leader, MLK, swore to only pursue a nonviolent movement based in the Christian faith.

Now look at today's movement. Riots in Ferguson tore up the community, building were looted and burned, looking at the pictures they looked like animals with hate filled eyes. Their leader? I reckon Barak Obama who hints at the legal racial bias and that in law enforcement as police officers are assassinated around the country. This is the same guy that won't mention the term "Islamic terrorist", so that people won't be motivated to target Muslims out of hate. Oh, and the Christian example of nonviolence is no where to be seen, as they accomplish as much as Palestinians do sending their children out to die in the streets as they blow themselves up for their cause.

The method should be what Christ, Gandhi and MLK used. If you don't lower your morality down the level of your oppressor, the sheer weight of your righteous cause will crush your adversary. However, lower yourself to their level, or lower, then you become no better and no one will give a damn

 

[IsaacNewton]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

I would say those protesting and kneeling to elevate the protests to a National level have reached the point they don't give a shit if it offends someone. A group of 40 million people is screaming that something is terribly wrong with bad cops and people in their specific community are being outright murdered and STILL almost none of these cops are held accountable.

If being nice and working in the system gets you nowhere you then reject the system. All the people complaining about the kneeling, which Jesus H they are peacefully just kneeling when the anthem is played, still haven't gotten it. None of them are saying 'ok these people are really pissed off about something, let's have a look at it and try to fix it'. Instead what they've been getting is 'there isn't a problem, what's the problem'.

We have many videos of what the problem is now. For anyone to pretend they still don't know or still say 'there is no problem' is slapping millions of people in the face. And guess what, you are going to get slapped back.

They aren't getting it because the narrative of injustice you are citing is wrong. This is coming from someone who does see a problem with our police, I sympathize with BLM, I certainly do not stand with them. It is NOT systemic racism in the police force, it is NOT murder. Are there racist cops sure, not many, still they should not be police. The problem with police lies in their training, especially after almost 50 years with the war on drugs. There is a problem with police if the our soldiers in hostile war zones have stricter rules of engagement than our police do with our citizens. These cops are not getting away with literal murder, most are carrying out their training, which is what our courts of law are finding. And in the AA population where around 30% of males wind up felons, that's where the overbearing hand of the training (proverbial rubber) is meeting the population it largely effects (the road). There is also a problem with groups like BLM lying about what is happening in these cases, take for instance hands up don't shoot in the micheal brown case, that never happened. What actually happened (that we know for a fact) is micheal brown punched the officer hard enough in the face to fracture his eye bone while he was sitting in his cruiser, then there was a struggle for the officers firearm in the cruiser, where brown was shot in the arm. Brown tried to flee as the officer got out, ordered him to stop, which brown (according to his friend who was present caught on video minutes after), charged the officer, the officer shot and struck him multiple time IN HIS FRONTSIDE, where he died. Which the friend of brown said "I thought the cop was missing BC Mike just kept coming." So the actual evidence very closely aligns to the cops testimony on what happened in the shooting. And those who claimed otherwise, it was found out that they weren't at the scene and did not actually witness it.

So do you actually want change, or do you just want to be defiant?

There is post after post here of a long list of 'reasons' for cops murdering people, right up to outright denial.

So get used to the protests, they won't stop until the bad cops stop murdering people and getting away with it.

 

[Mac1958]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

Well, it's very effective in making people angry.

Since no one is trying to heal or improve anything, since it's all just about attacks and insults and accusations, I guess that's the goal.
.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Since no one is trying to heal or improve anything, since it's all just about attacks and insults and accusations, I guess that's the goal.
.

Sadly, your sentence right there is a succinct and perfect description of virtually every national debate for the past dozen years or so.
And, clearly, it is getting worse.
The establishment of the media, government officials and the entire entertainment industry are very interested in keeping people divided. The last thing any of them want, in fact their worst nightmare is for the American public to suddenly start seeing things with a clear mind.
Can you imagine it?
Can you imagine if people all stopped throwing rocks at each other and started to actually take a look at what is happening?

 

[Mac1958]

Since no one is trying to heal or improve anything, since it's all just about attacks and insults and accusations, I guess that's the goal.
.

Sadly, your sentence right there is a succinct and perfect description of virtually every national debate for the past dozen years or so.
And, clearly, it is getting worse.
The establishment of the media, government officials and the entire entertainment industry are very interested in keeping people divided. The last thing any of them want, in fact their worst nightmare is for the American public to suddenly start seeing things with a clear mind.
Can you imagine it?
Can you imagine if people all stopped throwing rocks at each other and started to actually take a look at what is happening?

Frankly, I'd rather not. Too frustrating. All of this is based on choices we're making to not give an inch, to not communicate, to not listen, to just attack, attack, attack.

This doesn't have to happen. We could change this tomorrow if we had the nerve to.
.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Since no one is trying to heal or improve anything, since it's all just about attacks and insults and accusations, I guess that's the goal.
.

Sadly, your sentence right there is a succinct and perfect description of virtually every national debate for the past dozen years or so.
And, clearly, it is getting worse.
The establishment of the media, government officials and the entire entertainment industry are very interested in keeping people divided. The last thing any of them want, in fact their worst nightmare is for the American public to suddenly start seeing things with a clear mind.
Can you imagine it?
Can you imagine if people all stopped throwing rocks at each other and started to actually take a look at what is happening?

Frankly, I'd rather not. Too frustrating. All of this is based on choices we're making to not give an inch, to not communicate, to not listen, to just attack, attack, attack.

This doesn't have to happen. We could change this tomorrow if we had the nerve to.
.

And right now our government is essentially useless. Incapable of getting anything done. Practically everything now falls straight down party lines. Our system was designed to force the two houses to work together. And now that design is being used to constantly prevent the other side from getting things passed. And nothing gets done.

 

[sakinago]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

I would say those protesting and kneeling to elevate the protests to a National level have reached the point they don't give a shit if it offends someone. A group of 40 million people is screaming that something is terribly wrong with bad cops and people in their specific community are being outright murdered and STILL almost none of these cops are held accountable.

If being nice and working in the system gets you nowhere you then reject the system. All the people complaining about the kneeling, which Jesus H they are peacefully just kneeling when the anthem is played, still haven't gotten it. None of them are saying 'ok these people are really pissed off about something, let's have a look at it and try to fix it'. Instead what they've been getting is 'there isn't a problem, what's the problem'.

We have many videos of what the problem is now. For anyone to pretend they still don't know or still say 'there is no problem' is slapping millions of people in the face. And guess what, you are going to get slapped back.

They aren't getting it because the narrative of injustice you are citing is wrong. This is coming from someone who does see a problem with our police, I sympathize with BLM, I certainly do not stand with them. It is NOT systemic racism in the police force, it is NOT murder. Are there racist cops sure, not many, still they should not be police. The problem with police lies in their training, especially after almost 50 years with the war on drugs. There is a problem with police if the our soldiers in hostile war zones have stricter rules of engagement than our police do with our citizens. These cops are not getting away with literal murder, most are carrying out their training, which is what our courts of law are finding. And in the AA population where around 30% of males wind up felons, that's where the overbearing hand of the training (proverbial rubber) is meeting the population it largely effects (the road). There is also a problem with groups like BLM lying about what is happening in these cases, take for instance hands up don't shoot in the micheal brown case, that never happened. What actually happened (that we know for a fact) is micheal brown punched the officer hard enough in the face to fracture his eye bone while he was sitting in his cruiser, then there was a struggle for the officers firearm in the cruiser, where brown was shot in the arm. Brown tried to flee as the officer got out, ordered him to stop, which brown (according to his friend who was present caught on video minutes after), charged the officer, the officer shot and struck him multiple time IN HIS FRONTSIDE, where he died. Which the friend of brown said "I thought the cop was missing BC Mike just kept coming." So the actual evidence very closely aligns to the cops testimony on what happened in the shooting. And those who claimed otherwise, it was found out that they weren't at the scene and did not actually witness it.

So do you actually want change, or do you just want to be defiant?

There is post after post here of a long list of 'reasons' for cops murdering people, right up to outright denial.

So get used to the protests, they won't stop until the bad cops stop murdering people and getting away with it.

In which case did they murder someone and got away with it?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

Well, from the perspective of being noticed, it is a very effective form of protest. The problem is some people will always choose to see things according to their own agenda.

If that's your goal is to get noticed, ok, but that doesn't do anything at all to actually "start a conversation" about the topic. All it's doing is just pissing both sides off, and starting a heated argument about the method of "starting a conversation" in kneeling for the anthem. It hasn't done squat when it comes to actual change, it's just galvanized both side further. Nobody on either side is having an honest conversation, nobody is listening, and BOTH SIDES NEED TO START LISTENING. Which will not happen if your starting point is doing something that the people you're trying to convince find disrespectful, and then try to tell them it isn't disrespectful from your view, and continue to do it.

If I was trying to convince a Muslim village in Afghanistan that honor killing is bad, and if by doing that I'm drawing Muhammad in front of them...do you really think that's going to work!? If I go to a traditional Japanese house to try to convince them that they should buy my shoes, and I'm walking all over their place in my shoes (which they consider disrespectful even though I don't) do you think I'm going to get any where with them? You need to actually listen to the other side. That doesn't mean listen and ignore, or listen and then turn around and try to invalidate what they're saying to you. There is a better way to protest that, just like there is a way way way better and uniting way Trump could've have said players should stand for the flag, he didn't, and he messed up big time (if he was trying to be uniting, he's not interested in that at all). If you think what trump said was stupid, divisive and wrong, but think that players should keep kneeling, you're guilty of the same damn thing. It may not be as "bad" as what trump said, but does that even matter? It should if your goal is to bring about change, if that isn't your goal, then keep cheering on the players kneeling for the anthem, and leave the actual honest "conversation" to the people who actually do care.

You want real change, you have to look at where that real change could come from.

The only way you can get real change is if you change the political system. Get rid of the two party system, get rid of the easy corruption and the rich corporations trying to control everything. Implement PR for the House, have a run off system for President, even potentially open up voting for the different departments within the executive so the President controls each department, but they have a certain amount of autonomy.

Until you do this, the people won't listen. Why not? Because right now there are two political parties who are trying to win enough votes to win an election. It's impossible to listen to what the people have to say, you'd never get anywhere. You side with one group, you'll annoy the next group. You end up telling people what to think and people think politics is about a small range of issues that has nothing to do with much.

Do I think there is a better way than protesting? No. The simple fact is that telling white Middle Class America there is a problem pisses them off. The politicians aren't going to do anything about the problems because the White Middle Class votes, and they don't vote to fix the problems. Sometimes you have to piss off the people who you want to convince. Why? Because you get in their face enough they get pissed off enough, then they might accept change just to get these people off their backs. Or maybe not. But the Civil Rights movement worked, didn't it, and they pissed the white people off.

 

[danielpalos]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

I would say liberals not paying their taxes would be the best protest.

When it comes to money, people listen.

After all, do you really want to pay taxes to a racist government, hmm?

As a liberal, I don't complain about taxes. Only whiners do that.

Well both parties insist on putting us into insurmountable debt that will eventually destroy the Republic.

Dims want to raise taxes and then turn around and give free everything, and the GOP want's to lower taxes and go to war over seas.

Either way it results in pretty much the same outcome.

I am advocating ending our drug war to pay for health care.

Marijuana Sales Totaled $6.7 Billion In 2016

Right, bring in more governmental revenue that they will use that revenue to pay for things..................you do know how things really work in government, don't you?

I am advocating ending our drug war to pay for health care.

 

[2aguy]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

I would say those protesting and kneeling to elevate the protests to a National level have reached the point they don't give a shit if it offends someone. A group of 40 million people is screaming that something is terribly wrong with bad cops and people in their specific community are being outright murdered and STILL almost none of these cops are held accountable.

If being nice and working in the system gets you nowhere you then reject the system. All the people complaining about the kneeling, which Jesus H they are peacefully just kneeling when the anthem is played, still haven't gotten it. None of them are saying 'ok these people are really pissed off about something, let's have a look at it and try to fix it'. Instead what they've been getting is 'there isn't a problem, what's the problem'.

We have many videos of what the problem is now. For anyone to pretend they still don't know or still say 'there is no problem' is slapping millions of people in the face. And guess what, you are going to get slapped back.

No...because their protest is based on a lie.....cops are not shooting innocent blacks out of racism or any other ism. The people they mention all failed to comply with the police, or were actual criminals engaged in criminal activity......

If they wanted to really protest .... they would conduct marches in democrat controlled, black neighborhoods and tell young black males to stop shooting each other...that would be a protest based in truth.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

I would say those protesting and kneeling to elevate the protests to a National level have reached the point they don't give a shit if it offends someone. A group of 40 million people is screaming that something is terribly wrong with bad cops and people in their specific community are being outright murdered and STILL almost none of these cops are held accountable.

If being nice and working in the system gets you nowhere you then reject the system. All the people complaining about the kneeling, which Jesus H they are peacefully just kneeling when the anthem is played, still haven't gotten it. None of them are saying 'ok these people are really pissed off about something, let's have a look at it and try to fix it'. Instead what they've been getting is 'there isn't a problem, what's the problem'.

We have many videos of what the problem is now. For anyone to pretend they still don't know or still say 'there is no problem' is slapping millions of people in the face. And guess what, you are going to get slapped back.

No...because their protest is based on a lie.....cops are not shooting innocent blacks out of racism or any other ism. The people they mention all failed to comply with the police, or were actual criminals engaged in criminal activity......

If they wanted to really protest .... they would conduct marches in democrat controlled, black neighborhoods and tell young black males to stop shooting each other...that would be a protest based in truth.

Yep. Take Michael brown, for instance. Even AFTER the tapes surfaced of this huge, lumbering thug grabbing a little store clerk and tossing him aside like a rag doll, the leftist idiots Didn't miss a beat and just doubled down on their preprogrammed garbage.

The real discussion should be about behavior leading to consequences. If these phony activists actually wanted to make a difference, they should start teaching more blacks to take responsibility for their behavior.

All they are doing now is enabling even more bad behavior by blaming anybody but the black perps for their unruly behavior.

 

[Vastator]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

Clearly not as effective as closing ones wallet...

 

[sakinago]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

I would say those protesting and kneeling to elevate the protests to a National level have reached the point they don't give a shit if it offends someone. A group of 40 million people is screaming that something is terribly wrong with bad cops and people in their specific community are being outright murdered and STILL almost none of these cops are held accountable.

If being nice and working in the system gets you nowhere you then reject the system. All the people complaining about the kneeling, which Jesus H they are peacefully just kneeling when the anthem is played, still haven't gotten it. None of them are saying 'ok these people are really pissed off about something, let's have a look at it and try to fix it'. Instead what they've been getting is 'there isn't a problem, what's the problem'.

We have many videos of what the problem is now. For anyone to pretend they still don't know or still say 'there is no problem' is slapping millions of people in the face. And guess what, you are going to get slapped back.

No...because their protest is based on a lie.....cops are not shooting innocent blacks out of racism or any other ism. The people they mention all failed to comply with the police, or were actual criminals engaged in criminal activity......

If they wanted to really protest .... they would conduct marches in democrat controlled, black neighborhoods and tell young black males to stop shooting each other...that would be a protest based in truth.

In most cases yes, but you don't see a problem with the philando Castile case? Granted he did forget one of the two most important things as a carry permit holder when being stopped by police, one being informing the officer you're packing, which he did, the second KEEP YOUR HANDS ON THE WHEEL. Philando did make a mistake, but it's a mistake that does not deserve that consequence. I'm sorry but just plainly reaching for something during a stop is not cause enough for use of lethal force. If you or I acted the way that cop did as "civilians" we'd be rotting away in prison, 100%. And there's the problem, the police are civilians, civilians entrusted to enforce the law but still civilians. They shouldn't be given special privileges when it comes to using lethal force, they should obey the same laws we do. Now the laws are on the officers side in this case, he acted within law, it's the law I have a problem with. And if the officer was that worried about the act of reaching for his back pocket, that he could've been reaching for his gun, that's honestly just ridiculous. Reaching for your ID during a traffic stop is something WE ALL DO. Almost every single stop, where is there any less risk of someone when asked for ID, pretends like their rummaging for the purse for it, or in their glove box and instead pulls a gun and fires. Why is that case treated differently? Someone planning to shoot a cop like that certainly would not announce before hand that they were a carry permit holder that's armed. Clearly this cop was waaay to jumpy to be a cop, did not use the better judgment they were entrusted with, and someone is now dead because of it. But this cop has the laws in the book on his side, and he's free and clear. And like I said before, if that would have been you or I in plain clothes, even with a more credible threat than this officer faced, we be charged with at least maslaughter, more likely murder. There is a problem with police. Most are following the rules, but the rules in place shift more value on their own lives than the citizens they encounter and are supposed to protect. That value should be even.

Or take for instance the many many cases of police shooting people armed with only knives. Every time that happens they'll throw out the stat that it only takes someone with a knife a couple seconds to kill you from 10 ft away. Here's an idea, DO NOT CLOSE DISTANCE TO PEOPLE ARMED WITH KNIVES UNTIL THEY HAVE BEEN DISARMED OR NEUTRALIZED IN SOME OTHER WAY. Why the hell is that not part of their training. There is at least of couple of these cases per state a year, and I get that not every case is the same. It still happens far far too often, especially since most of the people with knives are mentally ill, paranoid schizophrenics who are worried about the G-men coming to switch their brains out with an aliens brain. There needs to be better desernment there. And they need to be held accountable when they don't use it. Which brings up my next point...the "Law Enforcement Bill of Rights," needs to go. There is no reason they should get special treatment in investigations just because "they're in the biz." Nope, no way, they are citizens just like us, if anything they should be under extra scrutiny, being the ones entrusted with enforcing the law.

 

[Mac1958]

All they are doing now is enabling even more bad behavior by blaming anybody but the black perps for their unruly behavior.

And, bingo.

This is something they choose to ignore. Their higher priority is the Oppressed/Oppressor template they apply to virtually every relationship.

They have to know they're enabling bad behavior. But it's just not a high enough priority for them. And, of course, it's valuable to them politically.
.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

All they are doing now is enabling even more bad behavior by blaming anybody but the black perps for their unruly behavior.

And, bingo.

This is something they choose to ignore. Their higher priority is the Oppressed/Oppressor template they apply to virtually every relationship.

They have to know they're enabling bad behavior. But it's just not a high enough priority for them. And, of course, it's valuable to them politically.
.

The phenomenon is much like we see when regressives defend Islamists. time after time they defend the Islamist behavior and attitudes but CLAIM they are doing this to defend moderate Muslims. Similarly, they support thug life under the misapprehension they are supporting all blacks. To them, the thugs ARE blacks just as the Islamists attitudes are Muslim, so they feel compelled to defend them.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

Well, from the perspective of being noticed, it is a very effective form of protest. The problem is some people will always choose to see things according to their own agenda.

If that's your goal is to get noticed, ok, but that doesn't do anything at all to actually "start a conversation" about the topic. All it's doing is just pissing both sides off, and starting a heated argument about the method of "starting a conversation" in kneeling for the anthem. It hasn't done squat when it comes to actual change, it's just galvanized both side further. Nobody on either side is having an honest conversation, nobody is listening, and BOTH SIDES NEED TO START LISTENING. Which will not happen if your starting point is doing something that the people you're trying to convince find disrespectful, and then try to tell them it isn't disrespectful from your view, and continue to do it.

If I was trying to convince a Muslim village in Afghanistan that honor killing is bad, and if by doing that I'm drawing Muhammad in front of them...do you really think that's going to work!? If I go to a traditional Japanese house to try to convince them that they should buy my shoes, and I'm walking all over their place in my shoes (which they consider disrespectful even though I don't) do you think I'm going to get any where with them? You need to actually listen to the other side. That doesn't mean listen and ignore, or listen and then turn around and try to invalidate what they're saying to you. There is a better way to protest that, just like there is a way way way better and uniting way Trump could've have said players should stand for the flag, he didn't, and he messed up big time (if he was trying to be uniting, he's not interested in that at all). If you think what trump said was stupid, divisive and wrong, but think that players should keep kneeling, you're guilty of the same damn thing. It may not be as "bad" as what trump said, but does that even matter? It should if your goal is to bring about change, if that isn't your goal, then keep cheering on the players kneeling for the anthem, and leave the actual honest "conversation" to the people who actually do care.

You want real change, you have to look at where that real change could come from.

The only way you can get real change is if you change the political system. Get rid of the two party system, get rid of the easy corruption and the rich corporations trying to control everything. Implement PR for the House, have a run off system for President, even potentially open up voting for the different departments within the executive so the President controls each department, but they have a certain amount of autonomy.

Until you do this, the people won't listen. Why not? Because right now there are two political parties who are trying to win enough votes to win an election. It's impossible to listen to what the people have to say, you'd never get anywhere. You side with one group, you'll annoy the next group. You end up telling people what to think and people think politics is about a small range of issues that has nothing to do with much.

Do I think there is a better way than protesting? No. The simple fact is that telling white Middle Class America there is a problem pisses them off. The politicians aren't going to do anything about the problems because the White Middle Class votes, and they don't vote to fix the problems. Sometimes you have to piss off the people who you want to convince. Why? Because you get in their face enough they get pissed off enough, then they might accept change just to get these people off their backs. Or maybe not. But the Civil Rights movement worked, didn't it, and they pissed the white people off.

I can't imagine a future in which blacks are allowed to commit crimes and kill police officers just because people are bored with being pissed off. Can you?

What blacks want is a license to kill. A license based upon skin color. Perhaps, the darker the skin, the more killings you can get away with.

 

[Coyote]

I saw this on facebook.....and it was confirmed here: FACT CHECK: Did a U.S. Veteran Influence Kaepernick's 'Take a Knee' Protest of Police Brutality? ... is this really so bad?

How it all started:

How it all started, and how we got here.

(Unfortunately, the people that could learn something by reading this likely won't bother).

Did you know this?

Aug 14, 2016- Colin Kaepernick sits for the national anthem.....and no one noticed.

Aug 20th, 2016- Colin again sits, and again, no one noticed.

Aug 26th, 2016- Colin sits and this time he is met with a level of vitriol unseen against an athlete. Even the future President of the United States took shots at him while on the campaign trail. Colin went on to explain his protest had NOTHING to with the military, but he felt it hard to stand for a flag that didn't treat people of color fairly.

Then on on Aug 30th, 2016 Nate Boyer, a former Army Green Beret turned NFL long snapper, penned an open letter to Colin in the Army Times. In it he expressed how Colin's sitting affected him.

Then a strange thing happened. Colin was able to do what most Americans to date have not...
He listened.

In his letter, Mr. Boyer writes:
"I’m not judging you for standing up for what you believe in. It’s your inalienable right. What you are doing takes a lot of courage, and I’d be lying if I said I knew what it was like to walk around in your shoes. I’ve never had to deal with prejudice because of the color of my skin, and for me to say I can relate to what you’ve gone through is as ignorant as someone who’s never been in a combat zone telling me they understand what it’s like to go to war.
Even though my initial reaction to your protest was one of anger, I’m trying to listen to what you’re saying and why you’re doing it."

Mr. Boyer goes on to write "There are already plenty people fighting fire with fire, and it’s just not helping anyone or anything. So I’m just going to keep listening, with an open mind. I look forward to the day you're inspired to once again stand during our national anthem. I'll be standing right there next to you."

Empathy and understanding was shown by Mr. Boyer.........and Mr. Kaepernick reciprocated.

Colin invited Nate to San Diego where the two had a 90 minute discussion and Nate proposed Colin kneel instead of sit.

But why kneel? In a military funeral, after the flag is taken off the casket of the fallen military member, it is smartly folded 13 times and then presented to the parents, spouse or child of the fallen member by a fellow service member while KNEELING. The two decided that kneeling for the flag would symbolize his reverence for those that paid the ultimate sacrifice while still allowing Colin to peacefully protest the injustices he saw.

Empathy, not zealotry under the guise of patriotism, is the only way meaningful discussion can be had. Mr. Kaepernick listened to all of you that say he disrespects the military and extended an olive branch to find a peace.

When will America listen to him?

We can all learn from this backstory. The truth often lies in the middle. Seek to learn the opposing side's point.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Both sides are not listening too each other, clearly. But let me for a second try to add some perspective to this debate, that has gotten pretty ridiculous.

It's probably pretty fair to say that most who support the kneeling, also find the confederate flag racist. To people who fly the stars and bars, many do not fly it because of racism, they do not support slavery, they don't wish to reinstate slavery, they don't stand for what the south stood for back then. For many, it's a sign that they believe the southern way of living is better than the north, or the south is just better than the north, or they are a fan of country music and the country life. But some still find it racist, and should those who find it racist be ignored?

Now while you're thinking about that, let's move onto the kneeling. To those who don't support the kneeling during the anthem, you have to understand what that symbol is to them. Now those who kneel for the anthem may have zero ill will or disrespect to service members, but it still means something else to the people who choose to stand and sing. To them, they have always been taught that we stand and sing this anthem in reverence to those who have fought and died for our freedoms, it's not just a song we sing BC we love our country, to them it's almost a ritual, almost like a religious ceremony, that we do to pay our respects to those who deserve it the most in our country, that we do not do enough for. So in the same way that people find the stars and bars a deeply racist symbol, those who stand for the anthem find it deeply disrespectful to those who have served and sacrificed. So by kneeling, are we really trying to effect change. It may not be done to be disrespectful to service members, but that's how people are going to interpret it, no matter what. Is disrespecting something important and almost sacred in their culture, really the best way to try to reach the very same people you're trying to bring awareness too, even though disrespect isn't necessarily your intentions?

Well, from the perspective of being noticed, it is a very effective form of protest. The problem is some people will always choose to see things according to their own agenda.

If that's your goal is to get noticed, ok, but that doesn't do anything at all to actually "start a conversation" about the topic. All it's doing is just pissing both sides off, and starting a heated argument about the method of "starting a conversation" in kneeling for the anthem. It hasn't done squat when it comes to actual change, it's just galvanized both side further. Nobody on either side is having an honest conversation, nobody is listening, and BOTH SIDES NEED TO START LISTENING. Which will not happen if your starting point is doing something that the people you're trying to convince find disrespectful, and then try to tell them it isn't disrespectful from your view, and continue to do it.

If I was trying to convince a Muslim village in Afghanistan that honor killing is bad, and if by doing that I'm drawing Muhammad in front of them...do you really think that's going to work!? If I go to a traditional Japanese house to try to convince them that they should buy my shoes, and I'm walking all over their place in my shoes (which they consider disrespectful even though I don't) do you think I'm going to get any where with them? You need to actually listen to the other side. That doesn't mean listen and ignore, or listen and then turn around and try to invalidate what they're saying to you. There is a better way to protest that, just like there is a way way way better and uniting way Trump could've have said players should stand for the flag, he didn't, and he messed up big time (if he was trying to be uniting, he's not interested in that at all). If you think what trump said was stupid, divisive and wrong, but think that players should keep kneeling, you're guilty of the same damn thing. It may not be as "bad" as what trump said, but does that even matter? It should if your goal is to bring about change, if that isn't your goal, then keep cheering on the players kneeling for the anthem, and leave the actual honest "conversation" to the people who actually do care.

You want real change, you have to look at where that real change could come from.

The only way you can get real change is if you change the political system. Get rid of the two party system, get rid of the easy corruption and the rich corporations trying to control everything. Implement PR for the House, have a run off system for President, even potentially open up voting for the different departments within the executive so the President controls each department, but they have a certain amount of autonomy.

Until you do this, the people won't listen. Why not? Because right now there are two political parties who are trying to win enough votes to win an election. It's impossible to listen to what the people have to say, you'd never get anywhere. You side with one group, you'll annoy the next group. You end up telling people what to think and people think politics is about a small range of issues that has nothing to do with much.

Do I think there is a better way than protesting? No. The simple fact is that telling white Middle Class America there is a problem pisses them off. The politicians aren't going to do anything about the problems because the White Middle Class votes, and they don't vote to fix the problems. Sometimes you have to piss off the people who you want to convince. Why? Because you get in their face enough they get pissed off enough, then they might accept change just to get these people off their backs. Or maybe not. But the Civil Rights movement worked, didn't it, and they pissed the white people off.

I can't imagine a future in which blacks are allowed to commit crimes and kill police officers just because people are bored with being pissed off. Can you?

What blacks want is a license to kill. A license based upon skin color. Perhaps, the darker the skin, the more killings you can get away with.

No, you're wrong.

But based on this post I doubt there's much point in actually telling you the reality. It'd involve more than a few sentences.

 

[Mac1958]

All they are doing now is enabling even more bad behavior by blaming anybody but the black perps for their unruly behavior.

And, bingo.

This is something they choose to ignore. Their higher priority is the Oppressed/Oppressor template they apply to virtually every relationship.

They have to know they're enabling bad behavior. But it's just not a high enough priority for them. And, of course, it's valuable to them politically.
.

The phenomenon is much like we see when regressives defend Islamists. time after time they defend the Islamist behavior and attitudes but CLAIM they are doing this to defend moderate Muslims. Similarly, they support thug life under the misapprehension they are supporting all blacks. To them, the thugs ARE blacks just as the Islamists attitudes are Muslim, so they feel compelled to defend them.

it's not "much" like, it's exactly like.

That's because it falls into the "Oppressed"/"Oppressor" template they apply to all relationships. Determine the Oppressed group, and then defend and attack for and coddle and deflect for that group at all costs, including enabling future bad behaviors, no matter what, period.
.

 

[danielpalos]

We have a McCarthy era phrase in our pledge. There should be no false witness bearing to our Constitution.