Is Public School Education Under-funded?

[mgh80]

Now why do you suppose that might be?

Because vouchers add competition to the equation so the schools are forced to improve. ECON 101.

Or it could be that...

(a) Those that receive vouchers are attending Private Schools, if they were rejected by Private Schools the student remained in the Public School and didn't count as using a voucher.

(b) Private schools are free to reject students and expel students for behavioral or academic problems. Again those students are then returned to the Public Schools system.​

It's pretty easy to show improved graduation rates when (a) the school can pick and choose students, and (b) get rid of students. It's harder to improve scores and rates when you are mandated by law to accept all students, expend a great amount of effort to keep them in school, and be where it very difficult to expel students.

Common Sense 101.



>>>>

Great point(s). I had a student last year physically push me in the cafeteria. He was back in school within 2 weeks. Most middle-class/upper class Americans have this glorified idea of what teenagers are like. They think they're just normal high school kids...until you're face to face with a classroom with Bloods and Latin Kings that is (who mind you tend to be the most respectful students-as they have nothing to prove to their peers). Opinions tend to change quickly when you start spotting gang tattoos on students and realize that somebody's Johnny and Susie are in a class with "kids" who've been arrested for armed burglary (with a firearm that they've acquired illegally). Some people want to compare dropout and test rates between classrooms of those students and entitled wealthy kids? What a joke.

 

[mgh80]

The advantage of the private school is that it can shuffle all those test scores around much easier than public schools. Might read Diane Ravitch to see all the tricks that private schools use to raise test scores on paper but not in reality.





Here in Nevada, if the ACLU loses their lawsuit, the average student will be able to find out. Nevada enacted the most comprehensive school voucher program in the USA and that will make it possible for people to enjoy the benefits of a private school.

I simply look at the amount of kids going to private school in my area who go on to college. That number is over 95% and more to the point they go right into a 4 year college and usually with loads of scholarships. Further, the graduation rate is above 90% as well. They perform an order of magnitude better than the public schools in all areas save athletics. For less money spent per student.

Key, is they do it for less money per student.
Teachers are over payed.
They get 3 months vacation. Retire early. It's time they competed for their jobs like everyone else does.

No...teachers do not get 3 months vacation.

Do too.

I'm contracted for 199 work days...180 instructional 19 planning.

I do NOT get paid for summers.

I used to attend roughly 4 weeks of mandatory training over the summer (that I paid for out of my paychecks later in the year).

Teachers in my district start out at $38K/year.

We have to act as teachers, role-models, are held to a higher standard than the rest of the general public, and sometimes even have to play parent to the students (a scary amount of parents ask ME what THEY should do with their problem children)...unfortunately I can't say "how about you be a parent instead of a friend and teach your kid how to spoon-feed themselves).

 

[bodecea]

The advantage of the private school is that it can shuffle all those test scores around much easier than public schools. Might read Diane Ravitch to see all the tricks that private schools use to raise test scores on paper but not in reality.





Here in Nevada, if the ACLU loses their lawsuit, the average student will be able to find out. Nevada enacted the most comprehensive school voucher program in the USA and that will make it possible for people to enjoy the benefits of a private school.

I simply look at the amount of kids going to private school in my area who go on to college. That number is over 95% and more to the point they go right into a 4 year college and usually with loads of scholarships. Further, the graduation rate is above 90% as well. They perform an order of magnitude better than the public schools in all areas save athletics. For less money spent per student.

Key, is they do it for less money per student.
Teachers are over payed.
They get 3 months vacation. Retire early. It's time they competed for their jobs like everyone else does.

No...teachers do not get 3 months vacation.

Do too.

Nope, they do not....180 school days by law with students, add in at least 5 prep days....then throw in all the days of professional growth classes. Around here, school doesn't end til mid June and starts up mid Aug. Now...even if you don't count prep days, etc. how does that add up to 3 months vacation?

 

[Unkotare]

Underfunded?

Hard to say

If you keep classroom sizes 20-25 you are probably adequately funded
30 and above and you are underfunded

25 or 30 is not that big a difference.

Actually it's a very big difference (at least in a core classroom).

Not really.

It's much easier to teach a class of 25 students than it is a class of 30. That's 5 less students you have to worry about DIing for, 5 less kids likely to be troublemakers (which in some schools is rampant), and in classrooms it opens up your room so much and allows for more types of instructional methods and tools.

Could you imagine dealing with 30 snot-nosed, entitled, arrogant, hormone filled teenagers? It's not easy, I assure you of that.

I personally can handle 30 students on a discipline level, my rapport and respect in my classrooms are incredibly high. However many of my students need specific one-on-one attention following the instruction objectives, and honestly introducing an extra 5 kids takes away from everybody's education in the classroom. My concern isn't how easy my job is--it's how much the students will absorb from my class.

7 vs 30 is a big difference. 25 vs 30, not so much.

 

[Slyhunter]

No...teachers do not get 3 months vacation.

Do too.

Technically teachers don't get vacation.

Actually the teachers in my school division are contracted for 200 days and earn no vacation time. Non-teacher full time employment is 5*52 = 260 days. (250 workdays if you assume 2-weeks paid vacation.) Teachers are not paid for the summer either are regular workdays or as vacation days.


>>>>

The argument is they make over 40k a year and don't even have to work the entire year. Whether you call it a vacation or not is immaterial, it's a vacation. I don't play word games with Liberals.

 

[Slyhunter]

I simply look at the amount of kids going to private school in my area who go on to college. That number is over 95% and more to the point they go right into a 4 year college and usually with loads of scholarships. Further, the graduation rate is above 90% as well. They perform an order of magnitude better than the public schools in all areas save athletics. For less money spent per student.

Key, is they do it for less money per student.
Teachers are over payed.
They get 3 months vacation. Retire early. It's time they competed for their jobs like everyone else does.

No...teachers do not get 3 months vacation.

Do too.

Nope, they do not....180 school days by law with students, add in at least 5 prep days....then throw in all the days of professional growth classes. Around here, school doesn't end til mid June and starts up mid Aug. Now...even if you don't count prep days, etc. how does that add up to 3 months vacation?

180 days is 6 months so you are saying they get 6 months of vacation.

 

[Slyhunter]

I simply look at the amount of kids going to private school in my area who go on to college. That number is over 95% and more to the point they go right into a 4 year college and usually with loads of scholarships. Further, the graduation rate is above 90% as well. They perform an order of magnitude better than the public schools in all areas save athletics. For less money spent per student.

Key, is they do it for less money per student.
Teachers are over payed.
They get 3 months vacation. Retire early. It's time they competed for their jobs like everyone else does.

No...teachers do not get 3 months vacation.

Do too.

I'm contracted for 199 work days...180 instructional 19 planning.

I do NOT get paid for summers.

I used to attend roughly 4 weeks of mandatory training over the summer (that I paid for out of my paychecks later in the year).

Teachers in my district start out at $38K/year.

We have to act as teachers, role-models, are held to a higher standard than the rest of the general public, and sometimes even have to play parent to the students (a scary amount of parents ask ME what THEY should do with their problem children)...unfortunately I can't say "how about you be a parent instead of a friend and teach your kid how to spoon-feed themselves).

I get paid 27k a year and I work 360. I wish I got a teachers salary. The point is you don't even work the entire year.

 

[WorldWatcher]

The argument is they make over 40k a year and don't even have to work the entire year. Whether you call it a vacation or not is immaterial, it's a vacation. I don't play word games with Liberals.

Sorry dude, registered Republican since 1978. Just because someone calls you on something does not make them a liberal.


>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

I get paid 27k a year and I work 360. I wish I got a teachers salary. The point is you don't even work the entire year.

Go to school and get a degree. Become a teacher. You can make $40,000 a year to start for only 200 days of work.

>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

Nope, they do not....180 school days by law with students, add in at least 5 prep days....then throw in all the days of professional growth classes. Around here, school doesn't end til mid June and starts up mid Aug. Now...even if you don't count prep days, etc. how does that add up to 3 months vacation?

180 days is 6 months so you are saying they get 6 months of vacation.

She said 180 days is when the students are in the school, not that teacher work 180 days.


>>>>

 

[Slyhunter]

I get paid 27k a year and I work 360. I wish I got a teachers salary. The point is you don't even work the entire year.

Go to school and get a degree. Become a teacher. You can make $40,000 a year to start for only 200 days of work.

>>>>

I owe 32k in student loans. I can't go on to a 4 year school until I learn two levels of a foreign language. And I have to pay for it myself. So I'm stuck. The fact that I don't need a foreign language to work in America is besides the point. Fucking Liberal colleges.

 

[OnePercenter]

Because vouchers add competition to the equation so the schools are forced to improve. ECON 101.

No. It removes money from pubic education and funnels it to Republican contributors.

 

[regent]

Care to provide a link to where any of the vouchers have been issued yet? Here in Nevada we are at least a year out.

Sure

• In 1989,the Wisconsin legislature passed the nation’s first modern school voucher program targeting students from low income households in the Milwaukee School District.
• In 2001, Florida enacted the John M. McKay Scholarships Program for Students with Disabilities becoming the first state to offer private school vouchers to students with disabilities.
• In 2004, the first federally funded and administered voucher program was enacted by Congress in Washington, D.C. It offered private school vouchers to low income students, giving priority to those attending low-performing public schools
• In 2007, the Utah legislature passed legislation creating the first statewide universal school voucher program, meaning it was available to any student in state with no limitations on student eligibility. A petition effort successfully placed the legislation on the state ballot for voter approval. In November 2007, the ballot measure was voted down and the new voucher program was never implemented. Utah’s existing special needs voucher program was not affected by the vote.
• In 2011, Indiana created the nation’s first state-wide school voucher program for low income students

http://www.ncsl.org/research/education/school-choice-vouchers.aspx

Did you pay attention to this part of your link?

"though some gains have been found among low income and minority students who receive vouchers.

Other research has found voucher recipients are more likely to graduate from higher school than their public school counterparts"

Now why do you suppose that might be?

Because vouchers add competition to the equation so the schools are forced to improve. ECON 101.

And who decides the school has improved and what evidence is required to prove the school has improved?

 

[westwall]

Care to provide a link to where any of the vouchers have been issued yet? Here in Nevada we are at least a year out.

Sure

• In 1989,the Wisconsin legislature passed the nation’s first modern school voucher program targeting students from low income households in the Milwaukee School District.
• In 2001, Florida enacted the John M. McKay Scholarships Program for Students with Disabilities becoming the first state to offer private school vouchers to students with disabilities.
• In 2004, the first federally funded and administered voucher program was enacted by Congress in Washington, D.C. It offered private school vouchers to low income students, giving priority to those attending low-performing public schools
• In 2007, the Utah legislature passed legislation creating the first statewide universal school voucher program, meaning it was available to any student in state with no limitations on student eligibility. A petition effort successfully placed the legislation on the state ballot for voter approval. In November 2007, the ballot measure was voted down and the new voucher program was never implemented. Utah’s existing special needs voucher program was not affected by the vote.
• In 2011, Indiana created the nation’s first state-wide school voucher program for low income students

http://www.ncsl.org/research/education/school-choice-vouchers.aspx

Did you pay attention to this part of your link?

"though some gains have been found among low income and minority students who receive vouchers.

Other research has found voucher recipients are more likely to graduate from higher school than their public school counterparts"

Now why do you suppose that might be?

Because vouchers add competition to the equation so the schools are forced to improve. ECON 101.

And who decides the school has improved and what evidence is required to prove the school has improved?

The students performance and continued education at a institute of higher education for one. Public schools are failing the kids and have been for decades. When I went to high school I got the chem book for the Los Angeles Unified School district published in 1927. I used that book all through college. I compared it to a college chem book just a few years ago and it was significantly better than the current college text....which tells me that the high school books are even worse.

Our children are being dumbed down to levels unheard of in the developed world.

 

[OnePercenter]

Nope, they do not....180 school days by law with students, add in at least 5 prep days....then throw in all the days of professional growth classes. Around here, school doesn't end til mid June and starts up mid Aug. Now...even if you don't count prep days, etc. how does that add up to 3 months vacation?

180 days is 6 months so you are saying they get 6 months of vacation.

She said 180 days is when the students are in the school, not that teacher work 180 days.


>>>>

I think he included weekends.

 

[OnePercenter]

The students performance and continued education at a institute of higher education for one. Public schools are failing the kids and have been for decades. When I went to high school I got the chem book for the Los Angeles Unified School district published in 1927. I used that book all through college. I compared it to a college chem book just a few years ago and it was significantly better than the current college text....which tells me that the high school books are even worse.

Our children are being dumbed down to levels unheard of in the developed world.

When I went to high school I got the chem book for the Los Angeles Unified School district published in 1927.

That's because you went to high school in 1928.

Perhaps your text book was FIRST published in 1927.

 

[regent]

Sure

http://www.ncsl.org/research/education/school-choice-vouchers.aspx

Not being dumbed down, but not being educated to the level they might achieve. All of these scores can be manipulated and school vouchers can be the reward for the manipulation. Some students do not achieve, because they do not receive the education they are capable of and America loses some self supporting citizens.
Education in the United States is not equal and it shows.
The real question: should all children receive a quality education or at least an equal education? If so America has some work to do, if not, we should accept the fact that for a number of our young people our work is done.







Did you pay attention to this part of your link?

"though some gains have been found among low income and minority students who receive vouchers.

Other research has found voucher recipients are more likely to graduate from higher school than their public school counterparts"

Now why do you suppose that might be?

Because vouchers add competition to the equation so the schools are forced to improve. ECON 101.

And who decides the school has improved and what evidence is required to prove the school has improved?

The students performance and continued education at a institute of higher education for one. Public schools are failing the kids and have been for decades. When I went to high school I got the chem book for the Los Angeles Unified School district published in 1927. I used that book all through college. I compared it to a college chem book just a few years ago and it was significantly better than the current college text....which tells me that the high school books are even worse.

Our children are being dumbed down to levels unheard of in the developed world.

 

[regent]

Not being dumbed down, but not being educated to the level they might achieve. All of these scores can be manipulated and school vouchers can be the reward for the manipulation. Some students do not achieve, because they do not receive the education they are capable of and America loses some self supporting citizens.
Education in the United States is not equal and it shows.
The real question: should all children receive a quality education or at least an equal education? If so America has some work to do, if not, we should accept the fact that for a number of our young people our work is done.







Did you pay attention to this part of your link?

"though some gains have been found among low income and minority students who receive vouchers.

Other research has found voucher recipients are more likely to graduate from higher school than their public school counterparts"

Now why do you suppose that might be?

Because vouchers add competition to the equation so the schools are forced to improve. ECON 101.

And who decides the school has improved and what evidence is required to prove the school has improved?

The students performance and continued education at a institute of higher education for one. Public schools are failing the kids and have been for decades. When I went to high school I got the chem book for the Los Angeles Unified School district published in 1927. I used that book all through college. I compared it to a college chem book just a few years ago and it was significantly better than the current college text....which tells me that the high school books are even worse.

Our children are being dumbed down to levels unheard of in the developed world.

 

[regent]

I get paid 27k a year and I work 360. I wish I got a teachers salary. The point is you don't even work the entire year.

Go to school and get a degree. Become a teacher. You can make $40,000 a year to start for only 200 days of work.

>>>>

I owe 32k in student loans. I can't go on to a 4 year school until I learn two levels of a foreign language. And I have to pay for it myself. So I'm stuck. The fact that I don't need a foreign language to work in America is besides the point. Fucking Liberal colleges.

Actually the language requirement is probably a conservative hold-over when the job of colleges was to train the sons of gentlemen to be gentlemen. We have been slowly converting the colleges and universities to quasi-vocational schools. Universities still have some of that upper class aura about them and in another 100 years all of that may be gone and colleges will mostly teach for upper level jobs.

 

[westwall]

The students performance and continued education at a institute of higher education for one. Public schools are failing the kids and have been for decades. When I went to high school I got the chem book for the Los Angeles Unified School district published in 1927. I used that book all through college. I compared it to a college chem book just a few years ago and it was significantly better than the current college text....which tells me that the high school books are even worse.

Our children are being dumbed down to levels unheard of in the developed world.

When I went to high school I got the chem book for the Los Angeles Unified School district published in 1927.

That's because you went to high school in 1928.

Perhaps your text book was FIRST published in 1927.

Actually i went to high school in 1957 but it was a poor district so we had real old textbooks. I stole the chem book because I valued it so much. And no there were earlier books published. Funny how you ignore the fact that the text books were better back then. So you agree that the textbooks today are terrible.

Why then do you support the further use of shit textbooks?