CDZ Is Slavery America's Original Sin?

[flacaltenn]

....A start would be acknowledging that past wrongs were indeed wrong.
....

America has been doing that for well over a century.

Obviously, it hasn't. Whites and blacks still don't have a story to tell they can both agree on.

Not quite true.. I live near the center of Civil War conflict.. If you tour the battle sites and plantations that are historic -- the docents do an EXCELLENT JOB of telling the story fairly and in a manner that defuses all the bias and emotion that you see in this thread.. LEARNING about the INDIVIDUALS that WERE slaves and how they contributed during and immediately after emancipation makes it REAL history.. I've taken out of state friends several times -- never heard the exact same stories twice, but it's an actual TEARFUL experience. Nashville was big "thoroughbred horse" territory.. MANY of the blacks knew MORE about raising and training thoroughbreds than the owners. And went on to become IN DEMAND and famous in their own rights..

We're 'over it".. Charlie Pride just died. He did more to normalize "race relations" in this country than Congress ever did. Same with Willie Mays and Jackie Robinson, Sammy Davis Jr and a host of others. Muddy Waters, Chubby Checker, Little Richard, Bo Diddly, Jimi Hendricks and on on on and on..

80% of "racial tensions" in this country today is NOT racial bias -- it's political.. If you dig deep enough, what's called systemic racism is actually the EXPECTED failure of govt to perform with any accuracy or motivation.. Local news story today on a Tenn man in prison for 18 years.. Petitioned the state for SIX WHOLE YEARS -- a total of NINE TIMES -- to get a court to READ his sentencing documents and DISCOVER -- his sentence was NOT 18 year -- but 12 years.. Today -- they corrected his sentence.

Poor performing govt is the remaining underlying cause of the MAJORITY of "systemic racism" as it's called out by the numbers...

 

[flacaltenn]

...Slaves were clothed and fed and housed year round; common laborers were left to starve or freeze to death or die in epidemics,....

You are actually saying that you would rather be a SLAVE than be poor and struggling - and FREE? WTF?????????

You assume that all the slaves had it miserably--------------and to ignorant to understand basic that they weren't.

IN many cases, black slaves were treated better far better than poor whites and poor endentured servants as well.

HINT---gravesites have been compared showing far far more abuse on poor whites including indentured servants than on black slaves from the same time period.

In fact at the historical sites around here -- the grave sites for the slaves are right next to the owners. They RAISED the owners kids.. Ran critical parts of the operations. This doesn't remove the stain of slavery, but it showed an incredible ability to SURVIVE slavery with some parts of dignity intact...

 

[flacaltenn]

About 18 posts deleted. 3 warnings and a thread ban.. A LOT of you forgot the Zone you are in. This is to REMAIN "on topic" and civil and NEVER personal.. If you forgot -- well OK.. If you continued or didn't care -- probably shouldn't be in the CDZone.

 

[cnm]

Obviously, it hasn't. Whites and blacks still don't have a story to tell they can both agree on.

This thread is testament to that.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

"likely our slave owners". What on Earth is your hangup on slavery anyway? Is that your way to justify your own personal failures in life or just something to whine about? Slavery is dead, gone, done in most of the countries on the planet Sadly such cannot be stated for some African & Mideastern countries. One cannot progress into the future dragging the past with them.

America is tied firmly to the past because it failed to deal with it's racism issues completely. The Union of the states required compromise and that's doomed America to blatant racism that will be ongoing without a solution, short of a violent uprising of the non-white population.

Now that the Trump regime is over, Americans would do well to consider that Trump and tyrants who aid and abet him were born out of the racism problem. It can all the traced back to that sort of crazy fascist oriented leadership.

If the Democratic party starts goose stepping and arbitrarily taking people off to be interred, tortured, and gassed, when they hold power would it be poetic justice or tragic irony?

*****SMILE*****

 

[Bush92]

If slavery had existed for 150 years before the creation of the United States, how can it be described as our original sin? The answer is that it can't be blamed on our country unless you miraculously reset the date of its creation to 1619, when the first African slaves were sold to British colonialists in Jamestown. The principal reason for buying African slaves was their natural resistance to malaria., which was killing off the European workers in the Southern Colonies. Once purchased, they became an indispensable asset to labor intensive agriculture in those colonies.

Slavery was never popular in the Northern Colonies, and abolitionist movements began to spring up in the mid 1700s. However, resentment of the British government's authoritarian policies was also building and finally erupted into the War for Independence from Great Britain. After winning that war, the Colonies realized that their independence could not be protected unless a common government was formed. A proposed Constitution was hotly debated among the former colonies, and was ratified only after allowing the southern States to retain slavery in return for accepting joint responsibility for the war debts that had been accrued.

This compromise enabled the creation of the United States, but did not end the ever-growing abolitionist movement which culminated in the Civil War. Hundreds of thousands of Americans died in that conflagration, and it is an insult to those who died for that cause to now be accused of supporting the institution they fought against. If there is any original sin to be assigned, it was the widespread rape of African women by their slave masters. But this is not and should not be an indictment of the entire United States of America.

https://historicjamestowne.org/history/the-first-africans/

The United States had no "original sin." But the cultural destruction of the 1960's is our downfall now.

 

[Bush92]

"likely our slave owners". What on Earth is your hangup on slavery anyway? Is that your way to justify your own personal failures in life or just something to whine about? Slavery is dead, gone, done in most of the countries on the planet Sadly such cannot be stated for some African & Mideastern countries. One cannot progress into the future dragging the past with them.

America is tied firmly to the past because it failed to deal with it's racism issues completely. The Union of the states required compromise and that's doomed America to blatant racism that will be ongoing without a solution, short of a violent uprising of the non-white population.

Now that the Trump regime is over, Americans would do well to consider that Trump and tyrants who aid and abet him were born out of the racism problem. It can all the traced back to that sort of crazy fascist oriented leadership.

View attachment 430596

If the Democratic party starts goose stepping and arbitrarily taking people off to be interred, tortured, and gassed, when they hold power would it be poetic justice or tragic irony?

*****SMILE*****

I'm ready to ride to the sound of the guns. "Back to the Front."

 

[alpine]

...Slaves were clothed and fed and housed year round; common laborers were left to starve or freeze to death or die in epidemics,....

You are actually saying that you would rather be a SLAVE than be poor and struggling - and FREE? WTF?????????

You assume that all the slaves had it miserably--------------and to ignorant to understand basic that they weren't.

IN many cases, black slaves were treated better far better than poor whites and poor endentured servants as well.

HINT---gravesites have been compared showing far far more abuse on poor whites including indentured servants than on black slaves from the same time period.

In fact at the historical sites around here -- the grave sites for the slaves are right next to the owners. They RAISED the owners kids.. Ran critical parts of the operations. This doesn't remove the stain of slavery, but it showed an incredible ability to SURVIVE slavery with some parts of dignity intact...

nothing wrong with slave masters keeping their traditions over thousands of years...
and you guys trying to make some emotional self exculpating bed time stories for kids out of it...
but that aint gonna hold any water for any adult equipped with reason and logic, unfortunately...

Odd tale of headless Norse men: Slaves buried with masters

Discovery raises possibility that Viking slaves were buried with their masters.

www.usatoday.com

 

[alpine]

...Slaves were clothed and fed and housed year round; common laborers were left to starve or freeze to death or die in epidemics,....

You are actually saying that you would rather be a SLAVE than be poor and struggling - and FREE? WTF?????????

You assume that all the slaves had it miserably--------------and to ignorant to understand basic that they weren't.

IN many cases, black slaves were treated better far better than poor whites and poor endentured servants as well.

HINT---gravesites have been compared showing far far more abuse on poor whites including indentured servants than on black slaves from the same time period.

In fact at the historical sites around here -- the grave sites for the slaves are right next to the owners. They RAISED the owners kids.. Ran critical parts of the operations. This doesn't remove the stain of slavery, but it showed an incredible ability to SURVIVE slavery with some parts of dignity intact...

nothing wrong with slave masters keeping their traditions over thousands of years...
and you guys trying to make some emotional self exculpating bed time stories for kids out of it...
but that aint gonna hold any water for any adult equipped with reason and logic, unfortunately...

Odd tale of headless Norse men: Slaves buried with masters

Discovery raises possibility that Viking slaves were buried with their masters.

www.usatoday.com

Rubbish. You just like fake history and pity parties for select ethnic groups based on their color, is all. the fact is slaves weren't treated worse than the same wealthy whites treated working class whites, and in fact were treated better in most cases. There are many articles over at EHnet on this, as well as eyewitness accounts from northern abolitionists like Fredrick Omstead. We don't need any emotional self-exculpating psycho-babble for anything; we weren't there and never owned any slaves, much less abused them; most white people never owned any, a fact you probably also don't beleive. What is it you feel guilty about that makes you so neurotic? You basically just want to punish others to appease your own guilt, right?

is this type of language permitted in cdz?
or this is a privilege only for "pro-slavery" folks to enjoy, like always...

like how pro-slavery folks enjoyed to treat human beings like their pets for centuries...
training and shaping them into some animal to get what they want out of them...
obviously they would treat them better compared to useless white europeans arriving on the shores in droves...
and i bet they treated their cattle and horses and dogs the same way, better than trash europeans, who were mostly criminals on the run anyways...

which is fine as i said...
good for them if they did take good care of their slaves...
this was a long time ago...
and we are beyond the limitation of action anyways, for the most part...

all i am saying; no adult will buy into your "emotional fairy tales for kids" about slavery...
it is what it is, as the name suggests; slavery...
there was never a bit of dignity in it and there will never be...

 

[JoeB131]

What is the problem?

Why is our history a problem that has to be solved in some way?

Because our history is a lie.

The Lie- America was a land of opportunity that broke away from an evil monarchy.

The Reality - America was a few rich guys who didn't want to pay their taxes to a relatively benign parliamentary government, and built this country on Native American GENOCIDE, black slavery and the exploitation of immigrants.

 

[alpine]

...Slaves were clothed and fed and housed year round; common laborers were left to starve or freeze to death or die in epidemics,....

You are actually saying that you would rather be a SLAVE than be poor and struggling - and FREE? WTF?????????

You assume that all the slaves had it miserably--------------and to ignorant to understand basic that they weren't.

IN many cases, black slaves were treated better far better than poor whites and poor endentured servants as well.

HINT---gravesites have been compared showing far far more abuse on poor whites including indentured servants than on black slaves from the same time period.

In fact at the historical sites around here -- the grave sites for the slaves are right next to the owners. They RAISED the owners kids.. Ran critical parts of the operations. This doesn't remove the stain of slavery, but it showed an incredible ability to SURVIVE slavery with some parts of dignity intact...

nothing wrong with slave masters keeping their traditions over thousands of years...
and you guys trying to make some emotional self exculpating bed time stories for kids out of it...
but that aint gonna hold any water for any adult equipped with reason and logic, unfortunately...

Odd tale of headless Norse men: Slaves buried with masters

Discovery raises possibility that Viking slaves were buried with their masters.

www.usatoday.com

Rubbish. You just like fake history and pity parties for select ethnic groups based on their color, is all. the fact is slaves weren't treated worse than the same wealthy whites treated working class whites, and in fact were treated better in most cases. There are many articles over at EHnet on this, as well as eyewitness accounts from northern abolitionists like Fredrick Omstead. We don't need any emotional self-exculpating psycho-babble for anything; we weren't there and never owned any slaves, much less abused them; most white people never owned any, a fact you probably also don't beleive. What is it you feel guilty about that makes you so neurotic? You basically just want to punish others to appease your own guilt, right?

is this type of language permitted in cdz?
or this is a privilege only for "pro-slavery" folks to enjoy, like always...

like how pro-slavery folks enjoyed to treat human beings like their pets for centuries...
training and shaping them into some animal to get what they want out of them...
obviously they would treat them better compared to useless white europeans arriving on the shores in droves...
and i bet they treated their cattle and horses and dogs the same way, better than trash europeans, who were mostly criminals on the run anyways...

which is fine as i said...
good for them if they did take good care of their slaves...
this was a long time ago...
and we are beyond the limitation of action anyways, for the most part...

all i am saying; no adult will buy into your "emotional fairy tales for kids" about slavery...
it is what it is, as the name suggests; slavery...
there was never a bit of dignity in it and there will never be...

lol nobody here is 'pro-slavery'. If you have to lie and fabricate strawmen because you don't know any objective history, you're just a troll. The fact is you and the black racists only want to rob and murder at the white proles'expense, and not bother the white elites in their gated communities, like your hero Jow Un Biden, part of that group who has no problems with pandering to violent hoodlums and selling out basic rights for white working class types to benefit their new permanent underclass of criminal illegal aliens and black gangster pols. You really think that's going to be a viable 'solution', despite its miserable failure over the last 50 years. Quit pretending you actually care about 'justice n stuff', you're just another left wing useful idiot who is only interested in more violence and revenge fantasies directed at entirely the wrong white people. The ones you morons claim to want 'justice' from live out in the Hamptons, Beverly hills, Grosse Point, Highland Park, etc. But you're too much of coward and tool to face that, though.

is this language only permitted for "pro-slavery" folks?
because this is clearly trolling... but anyways...

all i said was; no adults will be moved by your emotional narrative that goes like "awwww, look at these nice slave owners, how cute they treat their slaves that nice..."

grown ups are on a different level on these subjects...
thats why it should be the grown ups discussing them...

otherwise it would be just bunch of kids trying to justify slavery by pampering each other...

 

[martybegan]

What is the problem?

Why is our history a problem that has to be solved in some way?

Because our history is a lie.

The Lie- America was a land of opportunity that broke away from an evil monarchy.

The Reality - America was a few rich guys who didn't want to pay their taxes to a relatively benign parliamentary government, and built this country on Native American GENOCIDE, black slavery and the exploitation of immigrants.

Sorry, but exploitation was not genocide. And Europeans were exploiting each other for centuries before they crossed the pond.

 

[Donald H]

If the Democratic party starts goose stepping and arbitrarily taking people off to be interred, tortured, and gassed, when they hold power would it be poetic justice or tragic irony?

*****SMILE*****

I don't think it will happen that way but it's looking a bit more likely that the Dems will arrest your outgoing president and try him for treason. Gassing him is quite unlikely though.

 

[Donald H]

The lesson: If you take a car and treat it in a manner that turns it into a wreck that's hardly capable of running and it's engine won't start reliably because of abuse, then you OWN the problems.

If you take a black person and ................................. etc. then you will OWN the problems.

You can run the car over a cliff and go buy a new one!

You can't run a human being over a cliff!

And that's the lesson!

So now that everybody should be capable of understanding the lesson, what is the solution to the problem?

There's no start date and NO END date on the practice of slavery.. What bothers me more than attempts to pin COLONIAL PRACTICES on a nation (US in America) BEFORE it existed -- is the FACT that slavery STILL FLOURISHES in the world and not a SOLE -- wants to end it.. Would rather teach kids about SINFUL beginnings of this country with made up dates -- than TELL the kids the practice of slavery is alive and well and needs to end TODAY !!!!

For you to relate to what I said, you could take ever mention of 'slavery' and change it to either 'racism' or 'racist'. I'm simply saying that America created the racist problems by shoddy treatment of the black population and now the situation is at a crisis level. In Canada we mostly live side by side with black people and usually don't even notice a distinction. They're just people.
America has run the car over a cliff and is expecting to drag it back on the road and drive away. Does this make sense to you?

 

[Donald H]

What is the problem?

Why is our history a problem that has to be solved in some way?

Because our history is a lie.

The Lie- America was a land of opportunity that broke away from an evil monarchy.

The Reality - America was a few rich guys who didn't want to pay their taxes to a relatively benign parliamentary government, and built this country on Native American GENOCIDE, black slavery and the exploitation of immigrants.

Sorry, but exploitation was not genocide. And Europeans were exploiting each other for centuries before they crossed the pond.

Well Marty, that 'was' true.

 

[Donald H]

Not interested in changing the topic; if you want to know in detail what the 'failure' is in detail get a copy of Hugh Davis Graham's The Civil Rights Era so you will have a genuine knowledge of where 'it went wrong', then we could have a real discussion instead of you just having to parrot memes and specious opinion page rhetoric. Pay special interest to the 'Philadelphia Plan', its initial defeat by the real liberals, it's revival by George Schultz and Richard Nixon, and its consequences.

The reasons for the failure are of no interest to me. It's the 'failure' that we're talking about. And fwiw, I don't agree that there's such a thing as 'origianl sin' as it's intended to be with this thread title.

America has treated it's black people badly and now they are left with the results of having a wrecked car. And there's no body shop or mechanic with the skills or the will to fix it.

 

[Donald H]

View attachment 430786

Does that mean we can charge Hillary and Obama for war crimes and treason also?

*****SMILE*****

If the Trump side brings a case against either of them and find a judge that is willing to hear it, then of course you could.
In fact, I would suggest that it needs to be done in order to answer some outstanding questions.

But I think that once Trump is gone, as he surely will be from the WH at least, there won't be any stomach left to pursue such issues.

A very big reason being in the case of Obama being that it would virtually guarantee charges against Trump would be pursued as revenge. And then in a rigged system controlled by the Dems, charges against Trump wouldn't fail.

Fwiw, Biden is going to forget pursuing charges against Trump, almost guaranteed. Unless the Trump side misbehaves and brings it on.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

View attachment 430786

Does that mean we can charge Hillary and Obama for war crimes and treason also?

*****SMILE*****

If the Trump side brings a case against either of them and find a judge that is willing to hear it, then of course you could.
In fact, I would suggest that it needs to be done in order to answer some outstanding questions.

But I think that once Trump is gone, as he surely will be from the WH at least, there won't be any stomach left to pursue such issues.

A very big reason being in the case of Obama being that it would virtually guarantee charges against Trump would be pursued as revenge. And then in a rigged system controlled by the Dems, charges against Trump wouldn't fail.

Fwiw, Biden is going to forget pursuing charges against Trump, almost guaranteed. Unless the Trump side misbehaves and brings it on.

It sounds like progressive Democrats are already seeking revenge of some sort, even if there is a change in office on 20 January 2021, so what difference does it make if Trump does pursue those lines?

*****SMILE*****

 

[Donald H]

It sounds like progressive Democrats already seeking revenge of some sort, even if there is a change in office on 20 January 2021, so what difference does it make if Trump does pursue those lines?

From a Canadian's POV, frankly I believe that the fight must come eventually in order to allow wounds to be healed, and horrible cirumstances need to be witnessed by a people who have gone so horribly far astray.

But I also have to start wondering if it isn't all just false bravado or all smoke and mirrors by the extremist faction of America.

What will be the eventual outcome. Is the inauration of Biden going to light the spark or is it just more likely that no Americans in sufficient number will have the b-lls to pull the triggers?

You could answer, you appear to be one of the most aggrieved parties over the whole issue.

 

[flacaltenn]

all i said was; no adults will be moved by your emotional narrative that goes like "awwww, look at these nice slave owners, how cute they treat their slaves that nice..."

That's an absurd reduction of something nobody ever said.. Don't mind the "dramatic fiction", but it's not discussing MY position even after I stated that the mixed race docents at our local Civil War sites DO tell a story that EVERYONE can buy.. Especially adults that live on these grounds of that war..

The Allies reconciled after after 2 bloody World wars. Became quite close to each other. Neither blames the others for their shortcomings just 2 or 3 generations later.. The Japanese recovered from 2 atomic bombs and complete devastation and dont hold any long lasting "inter-racial" or nationalistic bias or reparational demands for the AUTHORIZED murders of 100s of thousands. Neither do the Brits who survived a rocket/air assault and were on the brink of total national destruction..

I LIKE reconciliation on past atrocities. The left deplores reconciliation because it is politically "inconvenient".. If they cant' point to folks TODAY as "slavery lovers" -- they lose a major playing card for race tension.,

I like the idea of "Never Again".. Which is the Jewish outlook at the Holocaust. The past is the past, but resolve to never "go there" again. Anyone NOT on board on train isn't focused on the present and future.

Too many racial tensions are political.,. And they DONT get reconciled, because of the struggle for power.. And this 1619 Project is a POLITICAL construct.. NOT DESIGNED on historical fact, but on POLITICAL CONVENIENCE to AVOID "racial reconciliation" which would do much better without the purposely designed POLITICAL barriers to it.