Is the Left - Right Paradigm Obsolete?

[Quantum Windbag]

WC is actually onto something, albeit it must be a total random accident.

The left - right split is morphing into Big Government + Cronies vs. The Rest of Us, as is ObamaCare demonstrates in high relief.

Exactly. I've always used the term 'corporatists' - as it accurately describes that style of government. But maybe I just have to admit the term evokes the wrong images for most people (who often see it as an attack on corporations or free markets). Whatever we call it, both major parties cater to the interests of the vested powers and have been selling us out to those interests for decades.

What I feel needs to happen is some kind of coalition of the disaffected. There is common ground between disparate movements like OWS and the Tea Party. We need to focus on the common goal of redirecting government to serve the people (ie all the people, not just special interest groups and corporate lobbyists).

There is a simple way to eliminate that, end all government subsidies. No government loans, tax breaks, or direct payments to any company for any reason, even if that ended up destroying an entire industry.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

WC is actually onto something, albeit it must be a total random accident.

The left - right split is morphing into Big Government + Cronies vs. The Rest of Us, as is ObamaCare demonstrates in high relief.

I see. Big Government and their Cronies vs. the Idiot Fringe. An apt. observation if not for the fallacy of the False Dilemma ( Definition: A limited number of options (usually two) is given, while in reality there are more options).

Are you saying your clock face was a false dilemma?

 

[Pogo]

The same oligarchy that's been pulling the same strings since at least Eisenhower, who courageously called them out in his farewell address in 1961. The MIC.

Or as Ike wanted to originally call it, the MICC - Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex. See also DC Revolving Door. (Tim Geithner? Michael Taylor? Really?)

You are one of those conspiracy whackadoodlea that thinks the Masons and the Illuminati secretly control the entire world. All your post make sense now.

The military industrial complex is a real thing, and it consists of weapons dealers and investors. Why do you think we've been at a constant state of war since WWII? It's not because there are people trying to invade us, it just makes money.

Fortunately, they aren't the only ones pulling the strings of Obama nor his predecessors, nor his eventual successors. Those with the most pull over the strings of a politician are the ones who donate most generously to their campaigns. Obama's strings are not even the ones to worry about, it's the Congressmen who do the legislating and have no term limits we should be worried about. This isn't a conspiracy theory, either, it's just how Congress works.

[MENTION=46061]uhkilleez[/MENTION] - I strongly recommend putting Windbag on ignore. He's a consummate troll who will contribute nothing in an endless torrent of flames. The only honest thing he's ever done on this board is picking his screen name. The sooner we cut out the noise the sooner we can get to the meat.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

i don't think the left-right paradigm is obsolete at all.....i believe 'the left'' would like people to think so for their own reasons....but essentially the difference between left and right remains more force vs. less force.....

That graph is utter bullshit. Even more that two-dimensional charts usually are. Just offhand I'd say fascism, anarchy, theocracy, "modern 'liberalism'" (whatever that means) "classical liberalism" (whatever that means) are all in the wrong place. Some of them don't even fit on the chart at all -- that's the pitfall of a two-dimensional chart.

Neither do those degrees of "force" btw. Force would be, at the very least, at the fringes on both sides. Where left will try to dictate a smaller soda and hire X number of minorites, right will dictate who you can marry and what your worker rights are.

Utter bullshit.

Try more like this:

There are multiple dimensions depending on what angle you're looking for. Here's an angle looking at the nature of the State:

(these being from my link in 73 (q.v.)

That almost comes close to being stupid.

Almost.

Tell me something, why are the only possible choices listed in the first graph socialism and fascism? Where would someone who believes in the free market fit on that graph? Are you one of those idiots that doesn't know what those terms mean?

Where would somebody who doesn't believe that corporations have power fit on your idiot graph that divides people between supporting and not supporting it? Where does someone who supports government power fit?

Actually, now that I think about it a bit, I realize I gave you way too much credit. This crap doesn't even get to the level of batshit crazy. I apologize for giving you way too much credit when I said you were almost stupid.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You are one of those conspiracy whackadoodlea that thinks the Masons and the Illuminati secretly control the entire world. All your post make sense now.

The military industrial complex is a real thing, and it consists of weapons dealers and investors. Why do you think we've been at a constant state of war since WWII? It's not because there are people trying to invade us, it just makes money.

Fortunately, they aren't the only ones pulling the strings of Obama nor his predecessors, nor his eventual successors. Those with the most pull over the strings of a politician are the ones who donate most generously to their campaigns. Obama's strings are not even the ones to worry about, it's the Congressmen who do the legislating and have no term limits we should be worried about. This isn't a conspiracy theory, either, it's just how Congress works.

@uhkilleez - I strongly recommend putting Windbag on ignore. He's a consummate troll who will contribute nothing in an endless torrent of flames. The only honest thing he's ever done on this board is picking his screen name. The sooner we cut out the noise the sooner we can get to the meat.

Translation.

The idiot is still upset that I said he wasn't worth my time the first week he was on the board, and has been trying to prove he is smarter than I am ever since.

First step, delve into multi dimensional mathematics so that you can at least grasp the concept that politics cannot be represented in three, or even 4, dimensions.

 

[Pogo]

See what I mean? ^^

Oh that's another thing -- he skims over the beginning and misses the development (previous post). Then it's right off to ad hominem/subtract credibilum land because he didn't do his homework.

Next....

 

[Quantum Windbag]

See what I mean? ^^

Oh that's another thing -- he skims over the beginning and misses the development (previous post). Then it's right off to ad hominem/subtract credibilum land because he didn't do his homework.

Next....

That's what I would go with, if I were you.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

That graph is utter bullshit. Even more that two-dimensional charts usually are. Just offhand I'd say fascism, anarchy, theocracy, "modern 'liberalism'" (whatever that means) "classical liberalism" (whatever that means) are all in the wrong place. Some of them don't even fit on the chart at all -- that's the pitfall of a two-dimensional chart.

Neither do those degrees of "force" btw. Force would be, at the very least, at the fringes on both sides. Where left will try to dictate a smaller soda and hire X number of minorites, right will dictate who you can marry and what your worker rights are.

Utter bullshit.

Try more like this:

not utter bullshit....my basic graph simplifies the bitter truth of the world today....these 'forces' are real....

while i can appreciate the subtleties of your graphs i think it's time we Americans stop the belly-button gazing...

Yeah I understand that's as deep as your mind can go, carrying around an unworkable two-dimensional simplisticism. And it's not insignificant that you cut off my post just before the charts that destroy yours.

I can only lead the ho to water. Can't make you think. Back to your comic book fantasies, off you go.

simplicity can sometimes be too deep for shallow minds....but go back to your smaller sodas and minority arguments if that makes you happy....

fyi i cut the charts off because my reply was directly under your original charts so it was to minimize the repetition.....but there again the truth of simplicity seems to elude you....

 

[Plasmaball]

Politics had become an issue by issue battle..where someone may fall into the liberal camp on say education,may take the conservative route on immagration.the 2 party system isnt made for this. So right now you have this "war, persay with in the parties on how to handle this. We see this more on the right ,right now.

 

[The T]

not utter bullshit....my basic graph simplifies the bitter truth of the world today....these 'forces' are real....

while i can appreciate the subtleties of your graphs i think it's time we Americans stop the belly-button gazing...

Yeah I understand that's as deep as your mind can go, carrying around an unworkable two-dimensional simplisticism. And it's not insignificant that you cut off my post just before the charts that destroy yours.

I can only lead the ho to water. Can't make you think. Back to your comic book fantasies, off you go.

simplicity can sometimes be too deep for shallow minds....but go back to your smaller sodas and minority arguments if that makes you happy....

fyi i cut the charts off because my reply was directly under your original charts so it was to minimize the repetition.....but there again the truth of simplicity seems to elude you....

Indeed. Truth is like that...but when one lives in a world with various shades of grey? Truth has a tendency never to reveal itself even if they are standing right in front of it.

 

[Pogo]

Yeah I understand that's as deep as your mind can go, carrying around an unworkable two-dimensional simplisticism. And it's not insignificant that you cut off my post just before the charts that destroy yours.

I can only lead the ho to water. Can't make you think. Back to your comic book fantasies, off you go.

simplicity can sometimes be too deep for shallow minds....but go back to your smaller sodas and minority arguments if that makes you happy....

fyi i cut the charts off because my reply was directly under your original charts so it was to minimize the repetition.....but there again the truth of simplicity seems to elude you....

Indeed. Truth is like that...but when one lives in a world with various shades of grey? Truth has a tendency never to reveal itself even if they are standing right in front of it.

Well-- no, it isn't.

"A link? I can't read a link, it's too hard! I want my two-dementianal cookie!'

Please. If you're not interested in the deep go find the kiddie pool.

 

[The T]

simplicity can sometimes be too deep for shallow minds....but go back to your smaller sodas and minority arguments if that makes you happy....

fyi i cut the charts off because my reply was directly under your original charts so it was to minimize the repetition.....but there again the truth of simplicity seems to elude you....

Indeed. Truth is like that...but when one lives in a world with various shades of grey? Truth has a tendency never to reveal itself even if they are standing right in front of it.

Well-- no, it isn't.

"A link? I can't read a link, it's too hard! I want my two-dementianal cookie!'

Please. If you're not interested in the deep go find the kiddie pool.

Read a link filled with bogus information for partisan intent?

Thanks for the non answer.

FAIL.

 

[Pogo]

Indeed. Truth is like that...but when one lives in a world with various shades of grey? Truth has a tendency never to reveal itself even if they are standing right in front of it.

Well-- no, it isn't.

"A link? I can't read a link, it's too hard! I want my two-dementianal cookie!'

Please. If you're not interested in the deep go find the kiddie pool.

Read a link filled with bogus information for partisan intent?

Thanks for the non answer.

FAIL.

This is the larger problem in politics -- closed minds. Obsession with one's own preconceptions and resultant hostility to anything that might shake it up. Which kind of begs the question of why one's on a message board in the first place.

That, and using the word "fail" as a noun ...

 

[Pogo]

Indeed. Truth is like that...but when one lives in a world with various shades of grey? Truth has a tendency never to reveal itself even if they are standing right in front of it.

Well-- no, it isn't.

"A link? I can't read a link, it's too hard! I want my two-dementianal cookie!'

Please. If you're not interested in the deep go find the kiddie pool.

Read a link filled with bogus information for partisan intent?

Thanks for the non answer.

FAIL.

You just put a 'thanks' on post 165 and then dissed my link --- even though they both say the same thing about the need for a multidimensional spectrum.

That's exactly what I mean by "closed minds".

 

[Peterf]

Yawn. More OWS crap.
Is there anyone NOT "consumed with greed"? What does that even mean??

There are plenty of people whom are not consumed with greed, and should you see me around later you will find I identify myself with ideals and not ideologies. I'm not a tea partier, and I don't want to occupy Wall Street either. I don't deal in labels, although judging by the libelous nature of your posts I think it's safe to assume you do. You can deflect my point all you want, but this country is ran by the lobbyists who pay for campaigns and not the voters who elect politicians.

Again, what does that even mean?
Lobbyists represent voters. I realize logic is not your forte, Duhkilleez, but bear with me here. Do you think corporations or unions vote?

Eh? Lobbyists are professional people who represent those who pay them. Just like those other parasites, lawyers. They 'represent voters' only in very unusual circumstances; there is an org called the Taxpayers Alliance in the UK. If they employed lobbyists (which I doubt) then they might be said to represent voters.

 

[Peterf]

i don't think the left-right paradigm is obsolete at all.....i believe 'the left'' would like people to think so for their own reasons....but essentially the difference between left and right remains more force vs. less force.....

That graph is utter bullshit. Even more that two-dimensional charts usually are. Just offhand I'd say fascism, anarchy, theocracy, "modern 'liberalism'" (whatever that means) "classical liberalism" (whatever that means) are all in the wrong place. Some of them don't even fit on the chart at all -- that's the pitfall of a two-dimensional chart.

Neither do those degrees of "force" btw. Force would be, at the very least, at the fringes on both sides. Where left will try to dictate a smaller soda and hire X number of minorites, right will dictate who you can marry and what your worker rights are.

Utter bullshit.

Try more like this:

There are multiple dimensions depending on what angle you're looking for. Here's an angle looking at the nature of the State:

(these being from my link in 73 (q.v.)

And you suggest your 'chart' are other than partisan , crudely attempting to misrepresent your political opponents?

I'm a free market economic conservative. I HATE corporate power. Markets only work if the poser of corporations is constantly monitored and limited. The role of the state is to severely limit corporate power.

And what is this religious angle that so obsesses and confuses you Yanks? I'm a Conservative who believes that the proper place for Churches is in the dustbin (Am. 'trashcan') of history. They should not only be separated from th state but from every field of rational human activity.

 

[RKMBrown]

I think the left-right paradigm has become obsolete. The lines blur as one moves to the extreme edges of political activism. If you believe they remain instructive, please offer examples of the beliefs of those on the far right and far left.

They remain instructive in so far as it's helpful to put the list of issues on a table with democrat views on the left side of the table and republican views on the right side of the table.

However, most reasoned folks understand that it is also possible none of the democrats or republicans have the correct solution for some issues. This is typically because the democrats and republicans are both primarily authoritarian on the issues.

Libertarian solutions confuse a lot of people, the authoritarians took over both parties and are taking advantage of the confusion. One way they do that is by calling libertarian solutions whack because they are not authoritarian left or authoritarian right.

Thus, only issues that arguably have nothing to do with authority over liberty, make sense to discuss in a left right sense. Course there are not a whole lot of issues that have nothing to do with authority over liberty.

Hmm...

Ok no I can't think of any worth discussing. Maybe that's the problem. The only thing our federal government seems to be doing these days is coming up with new ways to limit our liberty as directed by the current set of authorities.

 

[Pogo]

i don't think the left-right paradigm is obsolete at all.....i believe 'the left'' would like people to think so for their own reasons....but essentially the difference between left and right remains more force vs. less force.....

That graph is utter bullshit. Even more that two-dimensional charts usually are. Just offhand I'd say fascism, anarchy, theocracy, "modern 'liberalism'" (whatever that means) "classical liberalism" (whatever that means) are all in the wrong place. Some of them don't even fit on the chart at all -- that's the pitfall of a two-dimensional chart.

Neither do those degrees of "force" btw. Force would be, at the very least, at the fringes on both sides. Where left will try to dictate a smaller soda and hire X number of minorites, right will dictate who you can marry and what your worker rights are.

Utter bullshit.

Try more like this:

There are multiple dimensions depending on what angle you're looking for. Here's an angle looking at the nature of the State:

(these being from my link in 73 (q.v.)

And you suggest your 'chart' are other than partisan , crudely attempting to misrepresent your political opponents?

I'm a free market economic conservative. I HATE corporate power. Markets only work if the poser of corporations is constantly monitored and limited. The role of the state is to severely limit corporate power.

And what is this religious angle that so obsesses and confuses you Yanks? I'm a Conservative who believes that the proper place for Churches is in the dustbin (Am. 'trashcan') of history. They should not only be separated from th state but from every field of rational human activity.

This is why you have to read the whole post including links, isn't it? Those two charts are just the beginning of the point where that link starts to break down the fallacious two-dimensional bullshit charts as Eagle posted. It's introductory but offered as a contrast to his simplistic and unworkable chart. Just to show him there's more to it.

It was an introduction to a deeper analysis -- not by any means a whole story. I don't believe such analysis can be watered down to a simple chart, and certainly not a two-dimensional one. That limitation is a fatal flaw.

IMO.

The link would have been far too long to post here. That's why it's a link. Try reading it before commenting.

 

[RKMBrown]

That graph is utter bullshit. Even more that two-dimensional charts usually are. Just offhand I'd say fascism, anarchy, theocracy, "modern 'liberalism'" (whatever that means) "classical liberalism" (whatever that means) are all in the wrong place. Some of them don't even fit on the chart at all -- that's the pitfall of a two-dimensional chart.

Neither do those degrees of "force" btw. Force would be, at the very least, at the fringes on both sides. Where left will try to dictate a smaller soda and hire X number of minorites, right will dictate who you can marry and what your worker rights are.

Utter bullshit.

Try more like this:

There are multiple dimensions depending on what angle you're looking for. Here's an angle looking at the nature of the State:

(these being from my link in 73 (q.v.)

And you suggest your 'chart' are other than partisan , crudely attempting to misrepresent your political opponents?

I'm a free market economic conservative. I HATE corporate power. Markets only work if the poser of corporations is constantly monitored and limited. The role of the state is to severely limit corporate power.

And what is this religious angle that so obsesses and confuses you Yanks? I'm a Conservative who believes that the proper place for Churches is in the dustbin (Am. 'trashcan') of history. They should not only be separated from th state but from every field of rational human activity.

This is why you have to read the whole post including links, isn't it? Those two charts are just the beginning of the point where that link starts to break down the fallacious two-dimensional bullshit charts as Eagle posted. It's introductory but offered as a contrast to his simplistic and unworkable chart. Just to show him there's more to it.

It was an introduction to a deeper analysis -- not by any means a whole story. I don't believe such analysis can be watered down to a simple chart, and certainly not a two-dimensional one. That limitation is a fatal flaw.

IMO.

The link would have been far too long to post here. That's why it's a link. Try reading it before commenting.

Any political calculus that places all issues into a limited number of dimensions, is really just a ploy to make up lies about the moral authority given to the winner of an election. ...

Said more simply... just because a gay guy may have voted democrat this election because of the gay marriage issue, does not mean the gay guy voted for Obama care. However, the winner of the election will point out that he won based on all of this political planks, thus he has the moral authority to enact his planks. Or at least make that argument.

 

[The Rabbi]

Politics had become an issue by issue battle..where someone may fall into the liberal camp on say education,may take the conservative route on immagration.the 2 party system isnt made for this. So right now you have this "war, persay with in the parties on how to handle this. We see this more on the right ,right now.

So you might say "Politics makes strange bedfellows" to describe this current phenomenon, right? It accurately expresses that Left-Right dichotomy breaks down in certain specific issues, just like you say. Right?
Unfortunately it was coined in the 19th century. So this is hardly new. In fact it is the essence of politics that allegiances shift based on interests.