ISIS v Israel: Which Borders Change?

[irosie91]

ISIS attack Israel?
Not what I'd be recommending they do if I were their advisor.

If they start losing, they'll move from fighting the Shia and attack Israel in the hopes that their Allah will save them and bring about the end of times.

Yeah, it's a pipe dream, but that's what Saddam did too.

For discussion ---fellow posters. Who do you think ISIS people are? -----and
what do you think is the agenda of those people? Speaking of Saddam----his
his plan and actions certainly did include attacks on Israel. He was not all
that good at it-----but did manage to commit murder in the name of his "deen"

As to fighting the shia------????? It seems to me that attacks on shia by ISIS
people is not actually ideological. It may just be a manifestation of
Shariah "justice" Keep in mind----shia people have, lately, been killing
sunni people<<<< also for the sake of "justice" since saddam killed hundreds
of thousands (if not millions) of shia.

A perspective. -----'PEOPLES IS PEOPLES and all want to live nicely' ----but somehow
it does not take much to get sunnis and Shiites at each others throats in LARGE
numbers in Iraq

 

[Ropey]

ISIS attack Israel?
Not what I'd be recommending they do if I were their advisor.

If they start losing, they'll move from fighting the Shia and attack Israel in the hopes that their Allah will save them and bring about the end of times.

Yeah, it's a pipe dream, but that's what Saddam did too.

For discussion ---fellow posters. Who do you think ISIS people are? -----and
what do you think is the agenda of those people? Speaking of Saddam----his
his plan and actions certainly did include attacks on Israel. He was not all
that good at it-----but did manage to commit murder in the name of his "deen"

As to fighting the shia------????? It seems to me that attacks on shia by ISIS
people is not actually ideological. It may just be a manifestation of
Shariah "justice" Keep in mind----shia people have, lately, been killing
sunni people<<<< also for the sake of "justice" since saddam killed hundreds
of thousands (if not millions) of shia.

A perspective. -----'PEOPLES IS PEOPLES and all want to live nicely' ----but somehow
it does not take much to get sunnis and Shiites at each others throats in LARGE
numbers in Iraq

I agree, but it's not about the people, it's about the command and control of the land that is a pathway to the final attack on Israel. So, they fight each other to be first to kill the Jews and win the fight.

And it's been going on for ~1400 years.

The liberals can try to take the religion out of the Islamic ideology all they want but the end result is violent.

It didn't take all that many terrorists to hit the twin towers either.

 

[georgephillip]

For 1400 years Muslims have been killing each other to destroy a state that didn't exist until 1948?

Got a link for that one?

 

[MisterBeale]

Uh-huh ... and you got that "fact" where? From Lehmann?

What would you consider to be a credible source?

The 4th Media

I'd want some corroboration - not another source repeating Lehmann's opinion - for an opinion piece of a blogger before I'd post it as fact but to each his own.

Yes. . . We know what your idea of corroboration is. Corroboration means corporations in bed with BIG Government.

Frankly, I trust independent truth seekers, folks on the ground doing what old fashioned journalists USED to do. People who are digging for facts and meeting people who have been there to give me the truth. That's who I'll listen to. Foreign media is most times more reliable than US or British media. Intelligent folks are going to ignore commentators and disinformation specialists like yourself. George has posted a great thread, wish I had more rep to give him. That other ISIS thread devolved into insults by page three, this one has avoided devolving into fallacies, so why do you want to bring up the old Argumentum ad Verecundiam? If his source isn't one from the school of the USC Annenberg School for Communication & Journalism, or associated with the CFR, well then, it can't possibly be reliable, is that it? Really? Others would say that if he had used Fox news, well, then, you can't trust them because, well, they are Fox news. Others would say the same about MSNBC. The elites play the public like puppets. Divide et impera.

Why not just outlaw all folks that want to conduct news with out a license? Oh wait. . . That's right, Shield Law. Once again, government regulations.

 

[georgephillip]

I certainly hope that Mideast powers-that-be are working with our CIA to give Arab/Muslim rads in the region the opportunity to sincerely express themselves but it will take more than an opinion piece from your source to convince me:

Dr. Christof Lehmann, born 1958 in West Germany, was Advisor for Research in Psycho-traumatology to Yassir Arafat and Survivor of the Sabra Shatila Massace in 1982...
Dr. Lehmann is a Practicing Clinical Psychologist and has been actively advocating Palestinians Right to Statehood and Self Determination. In 2011 he began writing articles to contribute to breaking what he perceives as "The Embargo on Truth" by founding and running an independent webmedia. In Feb, 2013 he founded nsnbc on the basis of a blog that was established by Lehmann in 2011.

I can't vouch for Lehmann's accuracy, but his integrity can't be worse than John Forbes Kerry.

Uh-huh ... and you got that "fact" where? From Lehmann?

Anything that comes from Kerry's mouth is at least as likely to be a lie as it is to be truthful.
If Lehmann's correct about ISIS being a creation of Saudi Royals and the CIA, don't hold your breath waiting for Fox to break the News.
Or maybe you should

 

[georgephillip]

What would you consider to be a credible source?

The 4th Media

I'd want some corroboration - not another source repeating Lehmann's opinion - for an opinion piece of a blogger before I'd post it as fact but to each his own.

Yes. . . We know what your idea of corroboration is. Corroboration means corporations in bed with BIG Government.

Frankly, I trust independent truth seekers, folks on the ground doing what old fashioned journalists USED to do. People who are digging for facts and meeting people who have been there to give me the truth. That's who I'll listen to. Foreign media is most times more reliable than US or British media. Intelligent folks are going to ignore commentators and disinformation specialists like yourself. George has posted a great thread, wish I had more rep to give him. That other ISIS thread devolved into insults by page three, this one has avoided devolving into fallacies, so why do you want to bring up the old Argumentum ad Verecundiam? If his source isn't one from the school of the USC Annenberg School for Communication & Journalism, or associated with the CFR, well then, it can't possibly be reliable, is that it? Really? Others would say that if he had used Fox news, well, then, you can't trust them because, well, they are Fox news. Others would say the same about MSNBC. The elites play the public like puppets. Divide et impera.

Why not just outlaw all folks that want to conduct news with out a license? Oh wait. . . That's right, Shield Law. Once again, government regulations.

"Anarchism is a political philosophy that advocates stateless societies often defined as self-governed voluntary institutions,[1][2][3][4] but that several authors have defined as more specific institutions based on non-hierarchical free associations.[5][6][7][8]

"Anarchism holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, or harmful.[9][10] While anti-statism is central, some argue[11] that anarchism entails opposing authority or hierarchical organisation in the conduct of human relations, including, but not limited to, the state system.[6][12][13][1"

Anarchism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ropey]

For 1400 years Muslims have been killing each other to destroy a state that didn't exist until 1948?

Got a link for that one?

A link for what? In the end, all three books say there will be an Israel and that the war will be fought there. You want a link for that? Google it.

Israel is, once again, extant. Its very first recreation was fought and it's recreation is still fought. When the Babylonians were already falling the Maccabean revolt recreated it and it was far easier than this last time. Iraq/Iran was the center of the Babylonian Empire. They seek to restore that glory and the Sunni Arabs are very fearful of being bounded once again. By bounded I mean landlocked.

Maccabean Revolt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is just another flow in the ebb & flow of militant Islam as it seeks to reorder itself.

Not the Jews.

For them, the Jews are simply to kill in their attempt to gain power over each other.

When Achmadinejad came to Southern Lebanon and to the borders of Israel, he was saying:

Look, we can now walk here.

 

[aris2chat]

ISIS attack Israel?
Not what I'd be recommending they do if I were their advisor.

No UN handcuffs or other restraints, all out kill or be killed..... all out blitz

If ISIS hypothetically were to make advances towards Israel, hamas and others might take advantage, even hezbullah.

If Israel cleans house in syria the ISIS don't really care. If they fail, they can crawls back to what ever country that came from. Syria could be laid bare and the foreign fighters would just pick up their lives again and bide their time till another opportunity comes around.

Syrian refugees around the region will have to rebuild syria from the ground up.

 

[irosie91]

rosie>>
For discussion ---fellow posters. Who do you think ISIS people are? -----and
what do you think is the agenda of those people? Speaking of Saddam----his
his plan and actions certainly did include attacks on Israel. He was not all
that good at it-----but did manage to commit murder in the name of his "deen"

As to fighting the shia------????? It seems to me that attacks on shia by ISIS
people is not actually ideological. It may just be a manifestation of
Shariah "justice" Keep in mind----shia people have, lately, been killing
sunni people<<<< also for the sake of "justice" since saddam killed hundreds
of thousands (if not millions) of shia.

rosie>>
A perspective. -----'PEOPLES IS PEOPLES and all want to live nicely' ----but somehow
it does not take much to get sunnis and Shiites at each others throats in LARGE
numbers in Iraq

ropey
I agree, but it's not about the people, it's about the command and control of the land that is a pathway to the final attack on Israel. So, they fight each other to be first to kill the Jews and win the fight.

rosie>

you cite an interesting point-----a good stratagem might be----pay attention
to just where ISIS tries to set up housekeeping. Likely it is trying to creep
TOWARD its goal. I still think ISIS wants Saudi Arabia ----in order to
control the whole umma

 

[georgephillip]

"Engineering a civil war is the best way to divide a country into several territories.

"It worked in the Balkans and it is well documented that ethnic tensions were used and abused in order to destroy Yugoslavia and divide it into seven separate entities.

"Today we are clearly witnessing the balkanization of Iraq with the help of the favorite imperial tool, namely armed militias, referred to as pro-democracy opposition or terrorists depending on the context and the role they have to play in the collective psyche.

"Western media and government officials define them not by who they are, but by who they fight against. In Syria they constitute a 'legitimate opposition, freedom fighters fighting for democracy against a brutal dictatorship', whereas in Iraq, they are 'terrorists fighting a democratically elected U.S.-supported government...'"

The 4th Media » US-Sponsored Terrorism in Iraq and ?Constructive Chaos? in the Middle East

 

[SAYIT]

What would you consider to be a credible source?

The 4th Media

I'd want some corroboration - not another source repeating Lehmann's opinion - for an opinion piece of a blogger before I'd post it as fact but to each his own.

Yes. . . We know what your idea of corroboration is. Corroboration means corporations in bed with BIG Government.

We? Exactly how many foil-hatted idiots are in that pinhead of your, Princess?
So instead of acting all stupid, why not just provide some corroboration for GP's story. Idiot.

 

[georgephillip]

I'd want some corroboration - not another source repeating Lehmann's opinion - for an opinion piece of a blogger before I'd post it as fact but to each his own.

Yes. . . We know what your idea of corroboration is. Corroboration means corporations in bed with BIG Government.

We? Exactly how many foil-hatted idiots are in that pinhead of your, Princess?
So instead of acting all stupid, why not just provide some corroboration for GP's story. Idiot.

Why not explain what you disagree with in the following and why?

"ISIS, its former incarnations and confrère across the region – particularly those of the last three years operating in Libya and Syria – are most definitely not abstract spontaneous expressions of Sunni discontent or a 'Sunni-Shia divide'; nor the Iraqi governments mismanagement and corruption; nor the alleged 'sectarian policies' or the threat of Iranian 'Shia expansion'.

"While there may well be minimal truth within such malformed and distorted perceptions promulgated by the lackeys of imperialism, they are secondary to the fundamental reality that ISIS et al are the organised, concrete manifestation of western imperial policy and its reactionary clients who implement it; they represent nothing more than the corollary of the extremist-dominated Syrian insurgency, in turn nothing more than a tool of imperial machinations.

"They are mercenaries, private military contractors, intelligence operatives, thrill-seekers and deluded zealots, hoodwinking the desperate and vulnerable subjects of social immiseration; a paramilitary force that is by no means autogenous and whose social condition is reliant upon the imperial class that has engineered and now sustains it."

The 4th Media » A Premeditated Policy? ISIS, An Expression of Imperialism in Iraq

 

[SAYIT]

Yes. . . We know what your idea of corroboration is. Corroboration means corporations in bed with BIG Government.

We? Exactly how many foil-hatted idiots are in that pinhead of your, Princess?
So instead of acting all stupid, why not just provide some corroboration for GP's story. Idiot.

Why not explain what you disagree with in the following and why?

"ISIS, its former incarnations and confrère across the region – particularly those of the last three years operating in Libya and Syria – are most definitely not abstract spontaneous expressions of Sunni discontent or a 'Sunni-Shia divide'; nor the Iraqi governments mismanagement and corruption; nor the alleged 'sectarian policies' or the threat of Iranian 'Shia expansion'.

"While there may well be minimal truth within such malformed and distorted perceptions promulgated by the lackeys of imperialism, they are secondary to the fundamental reality that ISIS et al are the organised, concrete manifestation of western imperial policy and its reactionary clients who implement it; they represent nothing more than the corollary of the extremist-dominated Syrian insurgency, in turn nothing more than a tool of imperial machinations.

"They are mercenaries, private military contractors, intelligence operatives, thrill-seekers and deluded zealots, hoodwinking the desperate and vulnerable subjects of social immiseration; a paramilitary force that is by no means autogenous and whose social condition is reliant upon the imperial class that has engineered and now sustains it."

The 4th Media » A Premeditated Policy? ISIS, An Expression of Imperialism in Iraq

Not only did I not disagree, I specifically stated I hope it is true that our CIA, in cooperation with the Mideast powers-that-be, is influencing ISIS and the situation. I have a prob with unsubstantiated camel crap from blogsters posted here as facts.

 

[aris2chat]

"Engineering a civil war is the best way to divide a country into several territories.

"It worked in the Balkans and it is well documented that ethnic tensions were used and abused in order to destroy Yugoslavia and divide it into seven separate entities.

"Today we are clearly witnessing the balkanization of Iraq with the help of the favorite imperial tool, namely armed militias, referred to as pro-democracy opposition or terrorists depending on the context and the role they have to play in the collective psyche.

"Western media and government officials define them not by who they are, but by who they fight against. In Syria they constitute a 'legitimate opposition, freedom fighters fighting for democracy against a brutal dictatorship', whereas in Iraq, they are 'terrorists fighting a democratically elected U.S.-supported government...'"

The 4th Media » US-Sponsored Terrorism in Iraq and ?Constructive Chaos? in the Middle East

Still trying to promote this map as something it is not. It sounds like a one note opus, and a flat one at that.

 

[georgephillip]

The borders of Syria and Iraq are being redrawn before your eyes.
Maybe you're tone deaf and blind?

 

[georgephillip]

We? Exactly how many foil-hatted idiots are in that pinhead of your, Princess?
So instead of acting all stupid, why not just provide some corroboration for GP's story. Idiot.

Why not explain what you disagree with in the following and why?

"ISIS, its former incarnations and confrère across the region – particularly those of the last three years operating in Libya and Syria – are most definitely not abstract spontaneous expressions of Sunni discontent or a 'Sunni-Shia divide'; nor the Iraqi governments mismanagement and corruption; nor the alleged 'sectarian policies' or the threat of Iranian 'Shia expansion'.

"While there may well be minimal truth within such malformed and distorted perceptions promulgated by the lackeys of imperialism, they are secondary to the fundamental reality that ISIS et al are the organised, concrete manifestation of western imperial policy and its reactionary clients who implement it; they represent nothing more than the corollary of the extremist-dominated Syrian insurgency, in turn nothing more than a tool of imperial machinations.

"They are mercenaries, private military contractors, intelligence operatives, thrill-seekers and deluded zealots, hoodwinking the desperate and vulnerable subjects of social immiseration; a paramilitary force that is by no means autogenous and whose social condition is reliant upon the imperial class that has engineered and now sustains it."

The 4th Media » A Premeditated Policy? ISIS, An Expression of Imperialism in Iraq

Not only did I not disagree, I specifically stated I hope it is true that our CIA, in cooperation with the Mideast powers-that-be, is influencing ISIS and the situation. I have a prob with unsubstantiated camel crap from blogsters posted here as facts.

I assumed you were smart enough to distinguish opinion from something that's actually occurred or been proven to be the case.
My mistake.

"The ISIS-led insurgency currently gripping the western and northern regions of Iraq is but a continuation of the imperialist-sponsored insurgency in neighboring Syria.

"The state actors responsible for arming and funding said insurgency hold the same principal objectives in Iraq as those pursued in Syria for the last three years, namely: the destruction of state sovereignty; weakening the allies of an independent Iran;

"the permanent division of Iraq and Syria along sectarian lines establishing antagonistic 'mini-states' incapable of forming a unified front against US/Israeli imperial domination.

"Phil Greaves is a UK based writer on UK/US Foreign Policy, with a focus on western imperialism in the Arab and Muslim World, post WWII.http://notthemsmdotcom.wordpress.com/"

The 4th Media » A Premeditated Policy? ISIS, An Expression of Imperialism in Iraq

 

[SAYIT]

Why not explain what you disagree with in the following and why?

"ISIS, its former incarnations and confrère across the region – particularly those of the last three years operating in Libya and Syria – are most definitely not abstract spontaneous expressions of Sunni discontent or a 'Sunni-Shia divide'; nor the Iraqi governments mismanagement and corruption; nor the alleged 'sectarian policies' or the threat of Iranian 'Shia expansion'.

"While there may well be minimal truth within such malformed and distorted perceptions promulgated by the lackeys of imperialism, they are secondary to the fundamental reality that ISIS et al are the organised, concrete manifestation of western imperial policy and its reactionary clients who implement it; they represent nothing more than the corollary of the extremist-dominated Syrian insurgency, in turn nothing more than a tool of imperial machinations.

"They are mercenaries, private military contractors, intelligence operatives, thrill-seekers and deluded zealots, hoodwinking the desperate and vulnerable subjects of social immiseration; a paramilitary force that is by no means autogenous and whose social condition is reliant upon the imperial class that has engineered and now sustains it."

The 4th Media » A Premeditated Policy? ISIS, An Expression of Imperialism in Iraq

Not only did I not disagree, I specifically stated I hope it is true that our CIA, in cooperation with the Mideast powers-that-be, is influencing ISIS and the situation. I have a prob with unsubstantiated camel crap from blogsters posted here as facts.

I assumed you were smart enough to distinguish opinion from something that's actually occurred or been proven to be the case.
My mistake.

"The ISIS-led insurgency currently gripping the western and northern regions of Iraq is but a continuation of the imperialist-sponsored insurgency in neighboring Syria.

"The state actors responsible for arming and funding said insurgency hold the same principal objectives in Iraq as those pursued in Syria for the last three years, namely: the destruction of state sovereignty; weakening the allies of an independent Iran;

"the permanent division of Iraq and Syria along sectarian lines establishing antagonistic 'mini-states' incapable of forming a unified front against US/Israeli imperial domination.

"Phil Greaves is a UK based writer on UK/US Foreign Policy, with a focus on western imperialism in the Arab and Muslim World, post WWII.http://notthemsmdotcom.wordpress.com/"

The 4th Media » A Premeditated Policy? ISIS, An Expression of Imperialism in Iraq

Another opinion piece which also does not prove that Riyadh or the CIA is directing ISIS but rather seeks to smear with the "western imperialism" brush. Like you these bloggers simply hate America. I get that. Got anything else?

 

[irosie91]

my comment is short and easy---Georgie----what does "imperialists" mean in the
context of your quoted bits? Long long ago when I was young-----
"AMERICANIMPERIALISM" was one word on the corners and on the park benches and
in the handball courts and "ZIONISTCONTROLEDCIA" was one word in the mosques
and the bar rooms

 

[georgephillip]

my comment is short and easy---Georgie----what does "imperialists" mean in the
context of your quoted bits? Long long ago when I was young-----
"AMERICANIMPERIALISM" was one word on the corners and on the park benches and
in the handball courts and "ZIONISTCONTROLEDCIA" was one word in the mosques
and the bar rooms

Where did you first encounter the words "Zionist colonization of Palestine"?

 

[irosie91]

my comment is short and easy---Georgie----what does "imperialists" mean in the
context of your quoted bits? Long long ago when I was young-----
"AMERICANIMPERIALISM" was one word on the corners and on the park benches and
in the handball courts and "ZIONISTCONTROLEDCIA" was one word in the mosques
and the bar rooms

Where did you first encounter the words "Zionist colonization of Palestine"?

In the town of my childhood. I grew up in a town which existed in the USA since
before the American revolution. It had been--- for a few centuries and to some
extent even in my own childhood-----semi rural semi suburban.....lots of houses
plopped down after world war II---the farms disappearing. It was also located
in the midst of an historic Nazi enclave. Because of the VA mortgage thing---
my dad was able to buy a little house----as jews my family was an innovation.

I learned how to read at a young age and by the mid fifties was reading anything
that fell into my hands-----there were pamphlets about "JEWS' all over the place.
I read the word ZIONISM before I knew what it was and "Israel" before I knew
what that was. As it turned out lots of the articles were written in a place
called SYRIA---and some in Egypt------well I knew that there was an Egypt----it
housed the pyramids and Charlton Heston. Thus I was reading propaganda
written by escaped Nazi war criminals who had found refuge in Egypt and Syria
long before I knew anything about modern Egypt and Syria. As a kid I assumed
that SYRIA is a Christian country since all the Syrians I ran into were Christians who,
if they wore a cross----the cross had an extra line-----like those of my
Yugoslavian playmates. Why do you ask? I read lots of phrases I did not even
understand when I was about eight years old but I had an excellent memory for
anything I read. I still remember