Islam. The religion of peace, tolerance and truth?

[WelfareQueen]

There are millions of Muslims with sincere and genuinely held beliefs who are peaceful and good people. One size definitely does not fit all.

 

[Coyote]

Here we see consensus among islamist "scholars" as to the revulsion for democratic values and precepts.

Islam is utterly consumed with revulsion for the societal norms of Western liberal democracy.

How lucky for the islamist Pom Pom wavers that they are safely ensconced in the Great Satan and protected from the very islamist sharia hell holes they rattle on about.

Ruling on democracy and elections and participating in that system - islamqa.info


Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz, Shaykh ‘Abd al-Razzaaq ‘Afeefi, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ghadyaan, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Qa’ood.

Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (23/406, 407

They were also asked:

As you know, here in Algeria we have what are called legislative elections. There are parties which call for Islamic rule, and there are others that do not want Islamic rule. What is the ruling on one who votes for something other than Islamic rule even though he prays?

They replied:

The Muslims in a country that is not governed according to Islamic sharee’ah should do their utmost and strive as much as they can to bring about rule according to Islamic sharee’ah, and they should unite in helping the party which is known will rule in accordance with Islamic sharee’ah. As for supporting one who calls for non-implementation of Islamic sharee’ah, that is not permissible, rather it may lead a person to kufr, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And so judge (you O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among them by what Allaah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allaah’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient to Allaah).

A consensus? From one site.

There isn't a consensus yet - Islam is all over the board on this. But the earlier article looked at how Islam could work with modern democratic values using history, Islamic jurisprudence and an understanding of the underpinnings of the religion. Fact is - yes, it is possible.

I understand you're desperate and grasping at straws to prop up your Islamist ideology, but you might want to take a look around the world today and also look back with a historical (in your case, hysterical) perspective. At no time in islamist history have such precepts as representative rule, one person one vote, equality regardless of race, religion or nationality, etc., ever been a distinguishing characteristic of Islamist ideology.

All of those are very modern concepts in terms of human history and largely absent in the histories of the major world religions. But if you read the article you posted, you would realize that the seeds for some of those concepts - particularly equality do indeed exist in the Islamic ideology.

 

[teddyearp]

All religions are made up and all of them claim to be good when so much bad comes out of them. We can debate and discuss how much good your church or you have done in the name of your god(s) but it is totally unnecessary and religion is one of the major ways "authority" keeps us citizens in check. Yes they control us with religion. They also use theater and bread of course.

And if you aren't buying their religions, they're dumbing you down with Kim Kardashian. Suckers.

On those things, you are absolutely correct. We are the Romans again. As long as the masses are kept in control one way or another . . . . . via religion, or entertainment . . . . . .

 

[Coyote]

All religions are made up and all of them claim to be good when so much bad comes out of them. We can debate and discuss how much good your church or you have done in the name of your god(s) but it is totally unnecessary and religion is one of the major ways "authority" keeps us citizens in check. Yes they control us with religion. They also use theater and bread of course.

And if you aren't buying their religions, they're dumbing you down with Kim Kardashian. Suckers.

On those things, you are absolutely correct. We are the Romans again. As long as the masses are kept in control one way or another . . . . . via religion, or entertainment . . . . . .

I'm all for the entertainment part!

 

[irosie91]

Here we see consensus among islamist "scholars" as to the revulsion for democratic values and precepts.

Islam is utterly consumed with revulsion for the societal norms of Western liberal democracy.

How lucky for the islamist Pom Pom wavers that they are safely ensconced in the Great Satan and protected from the very islamist sharia hell holes they rattle on about.

Ruling on democracy and elections and participating in that system - islamqa.info


Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz, Shaykh ‘Abd al-Razzaaq ‘Afeefi, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ghadyaan, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Qa’ood.

Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (23/406, 407

They were also asked:

As you know, here in Algeria we have what are called legislative elections. There are parties which call for Islamic rule, and there are others that do not want Islamic rule. What is the ruling on one who votes for something other than Islamic rule even though he prays?

They replied:

The Muslims in a country that is not governed according to Islamic sharee’ah should do their utmost and strive as much as they can to bring about rule according to Islamic sharee’ah, and they should unite in helping the party which is known will rule in accordance with Islamic sharee’ah. As for supporting one who calls for non-implementation of Islamic sharee’ah, that is not permissible, rather it may lead a person to kufr, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And so judge (you O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among them by what Allaah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allaah’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient to Allaah).

A consensus? From one site.

There isn't a consensus yet - Islam is all over the board on this. But the earlier article looked at how Islam could work with modern democratic values using history, Islamic jurisprudence and an understanding of the underpinnings of the religion. Fact is - yes, it is possible.

I understand you're desperate and grasping at straws to prop up your Islamist ideology, but you might want to take a look around the world today and also look back with a historical (in your case, hysterical) perspective. At no time in islamist history have such precepts as representative rule, one person one vote, equality regardless of race, religion or nationality, etc., ever been a distinguishing characteristic of Islamist ideology.

All of those are very modern concepts in terms of human history and largely absent in the histories of the major world religions. But if you read the article you posted, you would realize that the seeds for some of those concepts - particularly equality do indeed exist in the Islamic ideology.

If you were not wholly ignorant and functioning as a bigoted lump of filth----and if you ever had meaningful conversations with muslims-------you would know that your statement is ABSURD. Someday you may be able
to have a conversation with a real muslim-------you might have to resort to a bit of trickery to
discover the truth-------as in FEIGN an interest in "reverting"---
the actual FACT is the statement that all people are equal in value and before the law is tantamount to BLASPHEMY
in Islamic law and ideology. Of course it is possible that
you already know that but you are playing apologist for filth

 

[Hollie]

Here we see consensus among islamist "scholars" as to the revulsion for democratic values and precepts.

Islam is utterly consumed with revulsion for the societal norms of Western liberal democracy.

How lucky for the islamist Pom Pom wavers that they are safely ensconced in the Great Satan and protected from the very islamist sharia hell holes they rattle on about.

Ruling on democracy and elections and participating in that system - islamqa.info


Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz, Shaykh ‘Abd al-Razzaaq ‘Afeefi, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ghadyaan, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Qa’ood.

Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (23/406, 407

They were also asked:

As you know, here in Algeria we have what are called legislative elections. There are parties which call for Islamic rule, and there are others that do not want Islamic rule. What is the ruling on one who votes for something other than Islamic rule even though he prays?

They replied:

The Muslims in a country that is not governed according to Islamic sharee’ah should do their utmost and strive as much as they can to bring about rule according to Islamic sharee’ah, and they should unite in helping the party which is known will rule in accordance with Islamic sharee’ah. As for supporting one who calls for non-implementation of Islamic sharee’ah, that is not permissible, rather it may lead a person to kufr, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And so judge (you O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among them by what Allaah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allaah’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient to Allaah).

A consensus? From one site.

There isn't a consensus yet - Islam is all over the board on this. But the earlier article looked at how Islam could work with modern democratic values using history, Islamic jurisprudence and an understanding of the underpinnings of the religion. Fact is - yes, it is possible.

I understand you're desperate and grasping at straws to prop up your Islamist ideology, but you might want to take a look around the world today and also look back with a historical (in your case, hysterical) perspective. At no time in islamist history have such precepts as representative rule, one person one vote, equality regardless of race, religion or nationality, etc., ever been a distinguishing characteristic of Islamist ideology.

All of those are very modern concepts in terms of human history and largely absent in the histories of the major world religions. But if you read the article you posted, you would realize that the seeds for some of those concepts - particularly equality do indeed exist in the Islamic ideology.

I can understand you're making your best effort to prop up your islamist ideology but you need to be honest with yourself and others regarding Islamism. The ideology has never been furthering of equality. The ideology explicitly demarcates moslems from the hated kuffar. Non-Islamists were always viewed as lesser and deserving of lesser rights.

The term for that is fascism.

 

[Coyote]

Here we see consensus among islamist "scholars" as to the revulsion for democratic values and precepts.

Islam is utterly consumed with revulsion for the societal norms of Western liberal democracy.

How lucky for the islamist Pom Pom wavers that they are safely ensconced in the Great Satan and protected from the very islamist sharia hell holes they rattle on about.

Ruling on democracy and elections and participating in that system - islamqa.info


Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz, Shaykh ‘Abd al-Razzaaq ‘Afeefi, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ghadyaan, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Qa’ood.

Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (23/406, 407

They were also asked:

As you know, here in Algeria we have what are called legislative elections. There are parties which call for Islamic rule, and there are others that do not want Islamic rule. What is the ruling on one who votes for something other than Islamic rule even though he prays?

They replied:

The Muslims in a country that is not governed according to Islamic sharee’ah should do their utmost and strive as much as they can to bring about rule according to Islamic sharee’ah, and they should unite in helping the party which is known will rule in accordance with Islamic sharee’ah. As for supporting one who calls for non-implementation of Islamic sharee’ah, that is not permissible, rather it may lead a person to kufr, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And so judge (you O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among them by what Allaah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allaah’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient to Allaah).

A consensus? From one site.

There isn't a consensus yet - Islam is all over the board on this. But the earlier article looked at how Islam could work with modern democratic values using history, Islamic jurisprudence and an understanding of the underpinnings of the religion. Fact is - yes, it is possible.

I understand you're desperate and grasping at straws to prop up your Islamist ideology, but you might want to take a look around the world today and also look back with a historical (in your case, hysterical) perspective. At no time in islamist history have such precepts as representative rule, one person one vote, equality regardless of race, religion or nationality, etc., ever been a distinguishing characteristic of Islamist ideology.

All of those are very modern concepts in terms of human history and largely absent in the histories of the major world religions. But if you read the article you posted, you would realize that the seeds for some of those concepts - particularly equality do indeed exist in the Islamic ideology.

I can understand you're making your best effort to prop up your islamist ideology but you need to be honest with yourself and others regarding Islamism. The ideology has never been furthering of equality. The ideology explicitly demarcates moslems from the hated kuffar. Non-Islamists were always viewed as lesser and deserving of lesser rights.

The term for that is fascism.

It sounds like not only should you read the article you linked to but look up the meaning of "fascism".

 

[Hollie]

Here we see consensus among islamist "scholars" as to the revulsion for democratic values and precepts.

Islam is utterly consumed with revulsion for the societal norms of Western liberal democracy.

How lucky for the islamist Pom Pom wavers that they are safely ensconced in the Great Satan and protected from the very islamist sharia hell holes they rattle on about.

Ruling on democracy and elections and participating in that system - islamqa.info


Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz, Shaykh ‘Abd al-Razzaaq ‘Afeefi, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ghadyaan, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Qa’ood.

Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (23/406, 407

They were also asked:

As you know, here in Algeria we have what are called legislative elections. There are parties which call for Islamic rule, and there are others that do not want Islamic rule. What is the ruling on one who votes for something other than Islamic rule even though he prays?

They replied:

The Muslims in a country that is not governed according to Islamic sharee’ah should do their utmost and strive as much as they can to bring about rule according to Islamic sharee’ah, and they should unite in helping the party which is known will rule in accordance with Islamic sharee’ah. As for supporting one who calls for non-implementation of Islamic sharee’ah, that is not permissible, rather it may lead a person to kufr, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And so judge (you O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among them by what Allaah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allaah’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient to Allaah).

A consensus? From one site.

There isn't a consensus yet - Islam is all over the board on this. But the earlier article looked at how Islam could work with modern democratic values using history, Islamic jurisprudence and an understanding of the underpinnings of the religion. Fact is - yes, it is possible.

I understand you're desperate and grasping at straws to prop up your Islamist ideology, but you might want to take a look around the world today and also look back with a historical (in your case, hysterical) perspective. At no time in islamist history have such precepts as representative rule, one person one vote, equality regardless of race, religion or nationality, etc., ever been a distinguishing characteristic of Islamist ideology.

All of those are very modern concepts in terms of human history and largely absent in the histories of the major world religions. But if you read the article you posted, you would realize that the seeds for some of those concepts - particularly equality do indeed exist in the Islamic ideology.

I can understand you're making your best effort to prop up your islamist ideology but you need to be honest with yourself and others regarding Islamism. The ideology has never been furthering of equality. The ideology explicitly demarcates moslems from the hated kuffar. Non-Islamists were always viewed as lesser and deserving of lesser rights.

The term for that is fascism.

It sounds like not only should you read the article you linked to but look up the meaning of "fascism".

The definition of fascism is amply demonstrated in Islamist ideology. The implementation of fascism is a matter of Islamist history.

Non-moslems have never been treated as equals in Islamist majority nations. I don't accept your ignorance of Islamist history so I must accept your attempts at deception to be a display of taqiyya.

Islam is the ultimate totalitarianism / authoritarianism with Muhammud (swish) as the unquestioned and worshipped leader, and moslems as deserving of special rights and privileges. There are allowances for the kuffar to live under Islamic "protection" as second-class citizens; dhimmis, but that entails a host of dangers: humiliation, privation, and sometimes death.

 

[Coyote]

A consensus? From one site.

There isn't a consensus yet - Islam is all over the board on this. But the earlier article looked at how Islam could work with modern democratic values using history, Islamic jurisprudence and an understanding of the underpinnings of the religion. Fact is - yes, it is possible.

I understand you're desperate and grasping at straws to prop up your Islamist ideology, but you might want to take a look around the world today and also look back with a historical (in your case, hysterical) perspective. At no time in islamist history have such precepts as representative rule, one person one vote, equality regardless of race, religion or nationality, etc., ever been a distinguishing characteristic of Islamist ideology.

All of those are very modern concepts in terms of human history and largely absent in the histories of the major world religions. But if you read the article you posted, you would realize that the seeds for some of those concepts - particularly equality do indeed exist in the Islamic ideology.

I can understand you're making your best effort to prop up your islamist ideology but you need to be honest with yourself and others regarding Islamism. The ideology has never been furthering of equality. The ideology explicitly demarcates moslems from the hated kuffar. Non-Islamists were always viewed as lesser and deserving of lesser rights.

The term for that is fascism.

It sounds like not only should you read the article you linked to but look up the meaning of "fascism".

The definition of fascism is amply demonstrated in Islamist ideology. The implementation of fascism is a matter of Islamist history.

Non-moslems have never been treated as equals in Islamist majority nations. I don't accept your ignorance of Islamist history so I must accept your attempts at deception to be a display of taqiyya.

Islam is the ultimate totalitarianism / authoritarianism with Muhammud (swish) as the unquestioned and worshipped leader, and moslems as deserving of special rights and privileges. There are allowances for the kuffar to live under Islamic "protection" as second-class citizens; dhimmis, but that entails a host of dangers: humiliation, privation, and sometimes death.

You do realize that, historically - religious minorities have never been treated equally in states where one religion was politically supreme? Everything you describe applies to Christendom and add to that periodic pogroms, deportations and forced conversions depending on the mood of the rulers. That didn't change until government was seperated from religion.

 

[Hollie]

I understand you're desperate and grasping at straws to prop up your Islamist ideology, but you might want to take a look around the world today and also look back with a historical (in your case, hysterical) perspective. At no time in islamist history have such precepts as representative rule, one person one vote, equality regardless of race, religion or nationality, etc., ever been a distinguishing characteristic of Islamist ideology.

All of those are very modern concepts in terms of human history and largely absent in the histories of the major world religions. But if you read the article you posted, you would realize that the seeds for some of those concepts - particularly equality do indeed exist in the Islamic ideology.

I can understand you're making your best effort to prop up your islamist ideology but you need to be honest with yourself and others regarding Islamism. The ideology has never been furthering of equality. The ideology explicitly demarcates moslems from the hated kuffar. Non-Islamists were always viewed as lesser and deserving of lesser rights.

The term for that is fascism.

It sounds like not only should you read the article you linked to but look up the meaning of "fascism".

The definition of fascism is amply demonstrated in Islamist ideology. The implementation of fascism is a matter of Islamist history.

Non-moslems have never been treated as equals in Islamist majority nations. I don't accept your ignorance of Islamist history so I must accept your attempts at deception to be a display of taqiyya.

Islam is the ultimate totalitarianism / authoritarianism with Muhammud (swish) as the unquestioned and worshipped leader, and moslems as deserving of special rights and privileges. There are allowances for the kuffar to live under Islamic "protection" as second-class citizens; dhimmis, but that entails a host of dangers: humiliation, privation, and sometimes death.

You do realize that, historically - religious minorities have never been treated equally in states where one religion was politically supreme? Everything you describe applies to Christendom and add to that periodic pogroms, deportations and forced conversions depending on the mood of the rulers. That didn't change until government was seperated from religion.

I do realize that your apologetics for Islamic fascism is typical for convert wannabes.

The Treatment of Jews in Arab Islamic Countries Jewish Virtual Library

The Dhimmi
Still, as "People of the Book," Jews (and Christians) are protected under Islamic law. The traditional concept of the "dhimma" ("writ of protection") was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This "protection" did little, however, to insure that Jewsand Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer--the Muslim.



Do yourself a favor and research the term fascism. You will find parallels with islamic ideology.

 

[Coyote]

All of those are very modern concepts in terms of human history and largely absent in the histories of the major world religions. But if you read the article you posted, you would realize that the seeds for some of those concepts - particularly equality do indeed exist in the Islamic ideology.

I can understand you're making your best effort to prop up your islamist ideology but you need to be honest with yourself and others regarding Islamism. The ideology has never been furthering of equality. The ideology explicitly demarcates moslems from the hated kuffar. Non-Islamists were always viewed as lesser and deserving of lesser rights.

The term for that is fascism.

It sounds like not only should you read the article you linked to but look up the meaning of "fascism".

The definition of fascism is amply demonstrated in Islamist ideology. The implementation of fascism is a matter of Islamist history.

Non-moslems have never been treated as equals in Islamist majority nations. I don't accept your ignorance of Islamist history so I must accept your attempts at deception to be a display of taqiyya.

Islam is the ultimate totalitarianism / authoritarianism with Muhammud (swish) as the unquestioned and worshipped leader, and moslems as deserving of special rights and privileges. There are allowances for the kuffar to live under Islamic "protection" as second-class citizens; dhimmis, but that entails a host of dangers: humiliation, privation, and sometimes death.

You do realize that, historically - religious minorities have never been treated equally in states where one religion was politically supreme? Everything you describe applies to Christendom and add to that periodic pogroms, deportations and forced conversions depending on the mood of the rulers. That didn't change until government was seperated from religion.

I do realize that your apologetics for Islamic fascism is typical for convert wannabes.

The Treatment of Jews in Arab Islamic Countries Jewish Virtual Library

The Dhimmi
Still, as "People of the Book," Jews (and Christians) are protected under Islamic law. The traditional concept of the "dhimma" ("writ of protection") was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This "protection" did little, however, to insure that Jewsand Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer--the Muslim.



Do yourself a favor and research the term fascism. You will find parallels with islamic ideology.

And this is different from the historic treatment of religious minorities under other religions...how?

Are you suggesting that, given the above, that religions are fascist? That's a stretch.

(going hot and heavy on the cut and paste now are you?)

 

[Hollie]

I can understand you're making your best effort to prop up your islamist ideology but you need to be honest with yourself and others regarding Islamism. The ideology has never been furthering of equality. The ideology explicitly demarcates moslems from the hated kuffar. Non-Islamists were always viewed as lesser and deserving of lesser rights.

The term for that is fascism.

It sounds like not only should you read the article you linked to but look up the meaning of "fascism".

The definition of fascism is amply demonstrated in Islamist ideology. The implementation of fascism is a matter of Islamist history.

Non-moslems have never been treated as equals in Islamist majority nations. I don't accept your ignorance of Islamist history so I must accept your attempts at deception to be a display of taqiyya.

Islam is the ultimate totalitarianism / authoritarianism with Muhammud (swish) as the unquestioned and worshipped leader, and moslems as deserving of special rights and privileges. There are allowances for the kuffar to live under Islamic "protection" as second-class citizens; dhimmis, but that entails a host of dangers: humiliation, privation, and sometimes death.

You do realize that, historically - religious minorities have never been treated equally in states where one religion was politically supreme? Everything you describe applies to Christendom and add to that periodic pogroms, deportations and forced conversions depending on the mood of the rulers. That didn't change until government was seperated from religion.

I do realize that your apologetics for Islamic fascism is typical for convert wannabes.

The Treatment of Jews in Arab Islamic Countries Jewish Virtual Library

The Dhimmi
Still, as "People of the Book," Jews (and Christians) are protected under Islamic law. The traditional concept of the "dhimma" ("writ of protection") was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This "protection" did little, however, to insure that Jewsand Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer--the Muslim.



Do yourself a favor and research the term fascism. You will find parallels with islamic ideology.

And this is different from the historic treatment of religious minorities under other religions...how?

Are you suggesting that, given the above, that religions are fascist? That's a stretch.

(going hot and heavy on the cut and paste now are you?)

It's typical that you would want to ignore those parts of Islamist history that you find uncomfortable. But your denial of history doesn't vacate the fact of Islamist fascism as it's currently performed.

From the previous link:

In the early years of the Islamic conquest, the "tribute" (or jizya), paid as a yearly poll tax, symbolized the subordination of the dhimmi. Later, the inferior status of Jews and Christians was reinforced through a series of regulations that governed the behavior of the dhimmi. Dhimmis, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Koran, Islam or Muhammad, to proselytize among Muslims or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a nonMuslim as a wife).

Dhimmis were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. They were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices-as that might offend the Muslims. The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.(4)

Dhimmis were also forced to wear distinctive clothing. In the ninth century, for example, Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.(5)

 

[teddyearp]

I'm not talking about history here. I am talking about the present. So how does what Christian nations did in the past have to do with how Islam is today?

 

[sealybobo]

Here we see consensus among islamist "scholars" as to the revulsion for democratic values and precepts.

Islam is utterly consumed with revulsion for the societal norms of Western liberal democracy.

How lucky for the islamist Pom Pom wavers that they are safely ensconced in the Great Satan and protected from the very islamist sharia hell holes they rattle on about.

Ruling on democracy and elections and participating in that system - islamqa.info


Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz, Shaykh ‘Abd al-Razzaaq ‘Afeefi, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ghadyaan, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Qa’ood.

Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (23/406, 407

They were also asked:

As you know, here in Algeria we have what are called legislative elections. There are parties which call for Islamic rule, and there are others that do not want Islamic rule. What is the ruling on one who votes for something other than Islamic rule even though he prays?

They replied:

The Muslims in a country that is not governed according to Islamic sharee’ah should do their utmost and strive as much as they can to bring about rule according to Islamic sharee’ah, and they should unite in helping the party which is known will rule in accordance with Islamic sharee’ah. As for supporting one who calls for non-implementation of Islamic sharee’ah, that is not permissible, rather it may lead a person to kufr, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And so judge (you O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among them by what Allaah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allaah’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient to Allaah).

A consensus? From one site.

There isn't a consensus yet - Islam is all over the board on this. But the earlier article looked at how Islam could work with modern democratic values using history, Islamic jurisprudence and an understanding of the underpinnings of the religion. Fact is - yes, it is possible.

I understand you're desperate and grasping at straws to prop up your Islamist ideology, but you might want to take a look around the world today and also look back with a historical (in your case, hysterical) perspective. At no time in islamist history have such precepts as representative rule, one person one vote, equality regardless of race, religion or nationality, etc., ever been a distinguishing characteristic of Islamist ideology.

All of those are very modern concepts in terms of human history and largely absent in the histories of the major world religions. But if you read the article you posted, you would realize that the seeds for some of those concepts - particularly equality do indeed exist in the Islamic ideology.

If you were not wholly ignorant and functioning as a bigoted lump of filth----and if you ever had meaningful conversations with muslims-------you would know that your statement is ABSURD. Someday you may be able
to have a conversation with a real muslim-------you might have to resort to a bit of trickery to
discover the truth-------as in FEIGN an interest in "reverting"---
the actual FACT is the statement that all people are equal in value and before the law is tantamount to BLASPHEMY
in Islamic law and ideology. Of course it is possible that
you already know that but you are playing apologist for filth

Are we really all equal in value and before the law here in America? Try going to court with a court appointed attorney vs. one that is connected and well respected. Then consider how racist our court and prison system is.

I suspect one could have many arguments how a Christian American Conservative saying this might be considered a hypocrite.

 

[irosie91]

Here we see consensus among islamist "scholars" as to the revulsion for democratic values and precepts.

Islam is utterly consumed with revulsion for the societal norms of Western liberal democracy.

How lucky for the islamist Pom Pom wavers that they are safely ensconced in the Great Satan and protected from the very islamist sharia hell holes they rattle on about.

Ruling on democracy and elections and participating in that system - islamqa.info


Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz, Shaykh ‘Abd al-Razzaaq ‘Afeefi, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ghadyaan, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Qa’ood.

Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (23/406, 407

They were also asked:

As you know, here in Algeria we have what are called legislative elections. There are parties which call for Islamic rule, and there are others that do not want Islamic rule. What is the ruling on one who votes for something other than Islamic rule even though he prays?

They replied:

The Muslims in a country that is not governed according to Islamic sharee’ah should do their utmost and strive as much as they can to bring about rule according to Islamic sharee’ah, and they should unite in helping the party which is known will rule in accordance with Islamic sharee’ah. As for supporting one who calls for non-implementation of Islamic sharee’ah, that is not permissible, rather it may lead a person to kufr, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And so judge (you O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among them by what Allaah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allaah’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient to Allaah).

A consensus? From one site.

There isn't a consensus yet - Islam is all over the board on this. But the earlier article looked at how Islam could work with modern democratic values using history, Islamic jurisprudence and an understanding of the underpinnings of the religion. Fact is - yes, it is possible.

I understand you're desperate and grasping at straws to prop up your Islamist ideology, but you might want to take a look around the world today and also look back with a historical (in your case, hysterical) perspective. At no time in islamist history have such precepts as representative rule, one person one vote, equality regardless of race, religion or nationality, etc., ever been a distinguishing characteristic of Islamist ideology.

All of those are very modern concepts in terms of human history and largely absent in the histories of the major world religions. But if you read the article you posted, you would realize that the seeds for some of those concepts - particularly equality do indeed exist in the Islamic ideology.

If you were not wholly ignorant and functioning as a bigoted lump of filth----and if you ever had meaningful conversations with muslims-------you would know that your statement is ABSURD. Someday you may be able
to have a conversation with a real muslim-------you might have to resort to a bit of trickery to
discover the truth-------as in FEIGN an interest in "reverting"---
the actual FACT is the statement that all people are equal in value and before the law is tantamount to BLASPHEMY
in Islamic law and ideology. Of course it is possible that
you already know that but you are playing apologist for filth

Are we really all equal in value and before the law here in America? Try going to court with a court appointed attorney vs. one that is connected and well respected. Then consider how racist our court and prison system is.

I suspect one could have many arguments how a Christian American Conservative saying this might be considered a hypocrite.

I have been in court for many reasons------mostly as a witness but a few times as plaintiff and a few as defendant. My experience in courts is that some judges are no damned good---but other than that----the FACT is people are equal
before the law in the USA by law. The fact is that people are NOT equal before the law in Islamic courts-----BY LAW
Muslims are superior in every way before the law in a shariah court. You are simply ignoring that fact. I do ot believe
you are stupid-----just trying to divert

 

[Vigilante]

 

[sealybobo]

It sounds like not only should you read the article you linked to but look up the meaning of "fascism".

The definition of fascism is amply demonstrated in Islamist ideology. The implementation of fascism is a matter of Islamist history.

Non-moslems have never been treated as equals in Islamist majority nations. I don't accept your ignorance of Islamist history so I must accept your attempts at deception to be a display of taqiyya.

Islam is the ultimate totalitarianism / authoritarianism with Muhammud (swish) as the unquestioned and worshipped leader, and moslems as deserving of special rights and privileges. There are allowances for the kuffar to live under Islamic "protection" as second-class citizens; dhimmis, but that entails a host of dangers: humiliation, privation, and sometimes death.

You do realize that, historically - religious minorities have never been treated equally in states where one religion was politically supreme? Everything you describe applies to Christendom and add to that periodic pogroms, deportations and forced conversions depending on the mood of the rulers. That didn't change until government was seperated from religion.

I do realize that your apologetics for Islamic fascism is typical for convert wannabes.

The Treatment of Jews in Arab Islamic Countries Jewish Virtual Library

The Dhimmi
Still, as "People of the Book," Jews (and Christians) are protected under Islamic law. The traditional concept of the "dhimma" ("writ of protection") was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This "protection" did little, however, to insure that Jewsand Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer--the Muslim.



Do yourself a favor and research the term fascism. You will find parallels with islamic ideology.

And this is different from the historic treatment of religious minorities under other religions...how?

Are you suggesting that, given the above, that religions are fascist? That's a stretch.

(going hot and heavy on the cut and paste now are you?)

It's typical that you would want to ignore those parts of Islamist history that you find uncomfortable. But your denial of history doesn't vacate the fact of Islamist fascism as it's currently performed.

From the previous link:

In the early years of the Islamic conquest, the "tribute" (or jizya), paid as a yearly poll tax, symbolized the subordination of the dhimmi. Later, the inferior status of Jews and Christians was reinforced through a series of regulations that governed the behavior of the dhimmi. Dhimmis, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Koran, Islam or Muhammad, to proselytize among Muslims or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a nonMuslim as a wife).

Dhimmis were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. They were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices-as that might offend the Muslims. The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.(4)

Dhimmis were also forced to wear distinctive clothing. In the ninth century, for example, Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.(5)

Muslims, Christians & Jews need to take the advice of Ibn al-Hazen. He lived in Iraq 1000 years ago. I suspect he knew all the organized religions were full of shit with their insane stories.

As seekers after truth, you will be wise to withhold judgment and not simply put your trust in the writings of the ancients.
You must question and critically examine those writings from every side.
You must submit only to argument and experiment and not to the sayings of any person.
For every human being is vulnerable to all kinds of imperfection.
As seekers after truth, we must also suspect and question our own ideas as we perform our investigations, to avoid falling into prejudice or careless thinking.
Take this course, and truth will be revealed to you.
This is the method of science.

 

[sealybobo]

A consensus? From one site.

There isn't a consensus yet - Islam is all over the board on this. But the earlier article looked at how Islam could work with modern democratic values using history, Islamic jurisprudence and an understanding of the underpinnings of the religion. Fact is - yes, it is possible.

I understand you're desperate and grasping at straws to prop up your Islamist ideology, but you might want to take a look around the world today and also look back with a historical (in your case, hysterical) perspective. At no time in islamist history have such precepts as representative rule, one person one vote, equality regardless of race, religion or nationality, etc., ever been a distinguishing characteristic of Islamist ideology.

All of those are very modern concepts in terms of human history and largely absent in the histories of the major world religions. But if you read the article you posted, you would realize that the seeds for some of those concepts - particularly equality do indeed exist in the Islamic ideology.

If you were not wholly ignorant and functioning as a bigoted lump of filth----and if you ever had meaningful conversations with muslims-------you would know that your statement is ABSURD. Someday you may be able
to have a conversation with a real muslim-------you might have to resort to a bit of trickery to
discover the truth-------as in FEIGN an interest in "reverting"---
the actual FACT is the statement that all people are equal in value and before the law is tantamount to BLASPHEMY
in Islamic law and ideology. Of course it is possible that
you already know that but you are playing apologist for filth

Are we really all equal in value and before the law here in America? Try going to court with a court appointed attorney vs. one that is connected and well respected. Then consider how racist our court and prison system is.

I suspect one could have many arguments how a Christian American Conservative saying this might be considered a hypocrite.

I have been in court for many reasons------mostly as a witness but a few times as plaintiff and a few as defendant. My experience in courts is that some judges are no damned good---but other than that----the FACT is people are equal
before the law in the USA by law. The fact is that people are NOT equal before the law in Islamic courts-----BY LAW
Muslims are superior in every way before the law in a shariah court. You are simply ignoring that fact. I do ot believe
you are stupid-----just trying to divert

If someone forced me to pick one organized religion, I would pick Christianity. Then I would go Mormon. Then I would go Jew and last I would pick Muslim. Of the main 4 religions we have in America, Muslim is the worse. I hope they calm down like most Christians have over the past few centuries. We no longer burn old single women for being witches. Our Christians also let us atheists argue with them and we don't get killed anymore. And Muslims can even come here and be annoying as long as they are not violent.

Thank goodness we don't have Islamic courts here in America. If you aren't a Muslim, don't be in the Middle east.

Hopefully the internet modernizes and wakes up the people of the middle east. When people are free they finally wake up from the religious brainwashing they've been under. Not everyone wakes up but the ones that remain brainwashed are usually harmless. For example, today we have a lot less Christians running around telling everyone they're going to hell. Not as many Christians believe that today like they did maybe 20 or 40 years ago. We've lightened up.

I think the angry Muslims in France and around the world are usually first or 2nd generation immigrants who move to a foreign land and never feel like they fit in. I see it in America and it isn't just Muslims. Chaldeans go around in gangs and treat everyone who isn't one of them like shit. Hopefully their kids will assimilate better once the Chaldeans lighten up and stop marrying their cousins because they don't want to marry a white American. My parents were born in Greece. We were treated differently because we were the only Greeks in the town I grew up in. Luckily we didn't have 100 Greeks that we could hang out with in a gang and alienate ourselves. We were forced to fit in. Muslims/Arabs/Chaldeans come here and only hang out with Muslims.

 

[sealybobo]

Won't be the first time religion has set us back. The Greeks in Pilos 500 years before Jesus figured out science and Plato/Christianity stomped that knowledge out for 2100 years. The Chinese figured shit out thousands of years before too and rulers destroyed all the books. In Iraq, Eqypt, India, Holland, Europe, Meso Americans. Religions and rulers have held us back at least 2000 years. We had to re discover things that were discovered thousands of years ago.

Don't forget church and state were one and the same for the past 3000 plus years. So when I say the rulers of the time suppressed knowledge, that also means the church.

 

[irosie91]

I understand you're desperate and grasping at straws to prop up your Islamist ideology, but you might want to take a look around the world today and also look back with a historical (in your case, hysterical) perspective. At no time in islamist history have such precepts as representative rule, one person one vote, equality regardless of race, religion or nationality, etc., ever been a distinguishing characteristic of Islamist ideology.

All of those are very modern concepts in terms of human history and largely absent in the histories of the major world religions. But if you read the article you posted, you would realize that the seeds for some of those concepts - particularly equality do indeed exist in the Islamic ideology.

If you were not wholly ignorant and functioning as a bigoted lump of filth----and if you ever had meaningful conversations with muslims-------you would know that your statement is ABSURD. Someday you may be able
to have a conversation with a real muslim-------you might have to resort to a bit of trickery to
discover the truth-------as in FEIGN an interest in "reverting"---
the actual FACT is the statement that all people are equal in value and before the law is tantamount to BLASPHEMY
in Islamic law and ideology. Of course it is possible that
you already know that but you are playing apologist for filth

Are we really all equal in value and before the law here in America? Try going to court with a court appointed attorney vs. one that is connected and well respected. Then consider how racist our court and prison system is.

I suspect one could have many arguments how a Christian American Conservative saying this might be considered a hypocrite.

I have been in court for many reasons------mostly as a witness but a few times as plaintiff and a few as defendant. My experience in courts is that some judges are no damned good---but other than that----the FACT is people are equal
before the law in the USA by law. The fact is that people are NOT equal before the law in Islamic courts-----BY LAW
Muslims are superior in every way before the law in a shariah court. You are simply ignoring that fact. I do ot believe
you are stupid-----just trying to divert

If someone forced me to pick one organized religion, I would pick Christianity. Then I would go Mormon. Then I would go Jew and last I would pick Muslim. Of the main 4 religions we have in America, Muslim is the worse. I hope they calm down like most Christians have over the past few centuries. We no longer burn old single women for being witches. Our Christians also let us atheists argue with them and we don't get killed anymore. And Muslims can even come here and be annoying as long as they are not violent.

Thank goodness we don't have Islamic courts here in America. If you aren't a Muslim, don't be in the Middle east.

Hopefully the internet modernizes and wakes up the people of the middle east. When people are free they finally wake up from the religious brainwashing they've been under. Not everyone wakes up but the ones that remain brainwashed are usually harmless. For example, today we have a lot less Christians running around telling everyone they're going to hell. Not as many Christians believe that today like they did maybe 20 or 40 years ago. We've lightened up.

I think the angry Muslims in France and around the world are usually first or 2nd generation immigrants who move to a foreign land and never feel like they fit in. I see it in America and it isn't just Muslims. Chaldeans go around in gangs and treat everyone who isn't one of them like shit. Hopefully their kids will assimilate better once the Chaldeans lighten up and stop marrying their cousins because they don't want to marry a white American. My parents were born in Greece. We were treated differently because we were the only Greeks in the town I grew up in. Luckily we didn't have 100 Greeks that we could hang out with in a gang and alienate ourselves. We were forced to fit in. Muslims/Arabs/Chaldeans come here and only hang out with Muslims.

I do not agree with some bits of what you say----your impresson seems to be that education will solve the problem of the supremacist nature of islam --------My muslim friends have all been educated in a manner considered the best in their countries of origin. ------I have also known some converts to islam from Christianity----solidly American and educated.
That SUPREMACIST thing is a very real issue-----be a muslim and rule the world and have the favor of "god"--crosses all lines. It seem to beat even "eternal life thru faith alone." When it comes to BEST REWARD----muslims got even catholics beat. Another advantage to being
the BEST and MOST powerful in the world by being
a muslim is that-----it's so easy TO BE a muslim-----
just say "yes"