Israel does not exist

[P F Tinmore]

Let's put it another way. Syria has borders, right? Jordan has borders. Lebanon and Iraq have borders.

So why wouldn't Palestine have borders?

Palestine does have borders.

When was there a treaty with Palestine altering their borders?

 

[Shusha]

Occupations do not acquire sovereignty.

In order for there to be an "occupation" -- there must exist two separate legal entities. One is the sovereign of the entire territory of Palestine, which has never been divided, which has a government, has treaties delineating its borders, has engaged in relations with other states and currently operates as a fully functioning legal entity on the international stage.

What is the other one? When did it come into being? What evidence do you have of its existence?

 

[Shusha]

Let's put it another way. Syria has borders, right? Jordan has borders. Lebanon and Iraq have borders.

So why wouldn't Palestine have borders?

Palestine does have borders.

When was there a treaty with Palestine altering their borders?

Thank you. We can now put any question of borders to rest, since we both agree there are borders and we both agree where they are. There is no need to discuss borders again.

The question remaining then is whether or not there is an existing State within those borders.

I got a government.
Treaties with other countries.
Israel as a signatory to international agreements
UN recognition.
Recognized borders with Jordan and Egypt.


What you got?

 

[Shusha]

Look, you are trying to argue that there is a single legal entity within the borders of "Palestine" but because Jooooooos it must not be real. Its the most bogus argument ever presented on this board since I've been here.

 

[Shusha]

Go back to Syria and Jordan and Lebanon and Iraq. Why do they exist? What MAKES them exist?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Let's put it another way. Syria has borders, right? Jordan has borders. Lebanon and Iraq have borders.

So why wouldn't Palestine have borders?

Palestine does have borders.

When was there a treaty with Palestine altering their borders?

Thank you. We can now put any question of borders to rest, since we both agree there are borders and we both agree where they are. There is no need to discuss borders again.

The question remaining then is whether or not there is an existing State within those borders.

I got a government.
Treaties with other countries.
Israel as a signatory to international agreements
UN recognition.
Recognized borders with Jordan and Egypt.


What you got?

The land Israel sits on.

 

[Shusha]

The land Israel sits on.

The fact that land exists does not in any way give legal sovereignty to anyone. The criteria that YOU laid out were:

a government
a territory
a permanent population
capacity to have relations with other states


We agree on the territory and the permanent population. I have a government and capacity. Why do you reject your own criteria?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The land Israel sits on.

The fact that land exists does not in any way give legal sovereignty to anyone. The criteria that YOU laid out were:

a government
a territory
a permanent population
capacity to have relations with other states


We agree on the territory and the permanent population. I have a government and capacity. Why do you reject your own criteria?

Indeed, it is Palestinian territory. That is what the UN said in 1949. I have seen nothing since then that changes that.

 

[Shusha]

Indeed, it is Palestinian territory. That is what the UN said in 1949. I have seen nothing since then that changes that.

Neither have I. It IS "Palestinian territory". All of it. That "Palestinian territory" is now the State of Israel.

You are trying to argue that the State of Israel does not exist. But it does. According to the criteria that you supplied, and according to all known understanding of international law. According to the parallel examples of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq.

There is no logical, legal reason WHY the "Palestinian territory" you speak of can not be = State of Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Indeed, it is Palestinian territory. That is what the UN said in 1949. I have seen nothing since then that changes that.

Neither have I. It IS "Palestinian territory". All of it. That "Palestinian territory" is now the State of Israel.

You are trying to argue that the State of Israel does not exist. But it does. According to the criteria that you supplied, and according to all known understanding of international law. According to the parallel examples of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq.

There is no logical, legal reason WHY the "Palestinian territory" you speak of can not be = State of Israel.

Where is the treaty transferring that territory?

 

[Shusha]

Where is the treaty transferring that territory?

What treaty transferred territory from the Ottoman Empire to Jordan? Or Syria? Or Lebanon? Or Iraq? Its the SAME.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where is the treaty transferring that territory?

What treaty transferred territory from the Ottoman Empire to Jordan? Or Syria? Or Lebanon? Or Iraq? Its the SAME.

No it isn't. The land was ceded to Palestine.

 

[Shusha]

Where is the treaty transferring that territory?

What treaty transferred territory from the Ottoman Empire to Jordan? Or Syria? Or Lebanon? Or Iraq? Its the SAME.

No it isn't. The land was ceded to Palestine.

Okay. The land of Jordan was ceded to Jordan. The land of Syria was ceded to Syria. That land of Lebanon was ceded to Lebanon. The land of Iraq was ceded to Iraq. The land of Palestine was ceded to Palestine.

Its the same. WHAT does that mean to say that a territory was ceded to a new legal entity?

The land of Jordan was defined, in law. It developed a government. It developed the capacity to enter into relations with other states.

So did Palestine. It was the SAME. Why do you reject one and not the others?

 

[Humanity]

I have found the evidence that Israel REALLY exists!

Google Maps

Good enough for me!

Why do they always show Israel inside fake borders?

Where ARE the borders then?

There aren't any.

Ok, so, for my own peace of mind and clarity...

Can you please explain why you think that there are no borders?

I'm curious, because when I was in Jordan there was definitely a border crossing into Israel, a full, and legal border crossing. I know, I used it!

So, I am really interested to try and understand why you believe there are no borders...

 

[Humanity]

Where is the treaty transferring that territory?

What treaty transferred territory from the Ottoman Empire to Jordan? Or Syria? Or Lebanon? Or Iraq? Its the SAME.

No it isn't. The land was ceded to Palestine.

Okay. The land of Jordan was ceded to Jordan. The land of Syria was ceded to Syria. That land of Lebanon was ceded to Lebanon. The land of Iraq was ceded to Iraq. The land of Palestine was ceded to Palestine.

Its the same. WHAT does that mean to say that a territory was ceded to a new legal entity?

The land of Jordan was defined, in law. It developed a government. It developed the capacity to enter into relations with other states.

So did Palestine. It was the SAME. Why do you reject one and not the others?

You have the patience of a saint!

Is you head not hurting yet?

 

[P F Tinmore]

I have found the evidence that Israel REALLY exists!

Google Maps

Good enough for me!

Why do they always show Israel inside fake borders?

Where ARE the borders then?

There aren't any.

Ok, so, for my own peace of mind and clarity...

Can you please explain why you think that there are no borders?

I'm curious, because when I was in Jordan there was definitely a border crossing into Israel, a full, and legal border crossing. I know, I used it!

So, I am really interested to try and understand why you believe there are no borders...

There is no border around Gaza. Only the green line. You would think there is a border when you cross it because it is under military control. Israel controls the border between Jordan and the West Bank, (Palestinian occupied territory) but you would think you are entering Israel. Similarly, going from the West Bank into Israel there is a "border crossing" even though there is only the green line. The green line is not a political or territorial border between countries. It merely determined military movement within Palestine.

Israel likes to pretend it has borders.

 

[Boston1]

I have found the evidence that Israel REALLY exists!

Google Maps

Good enough for me!

Why do they always show Israel inside fake borders?

Where ARE the borders then?

There aren't any.

Ok, so, for my own peace of mind and clarity...

Can you please explain why you think that there are no borders?

I'm curious, because when I was in Jordan there was definitely a border crossing into Israel, a full, and legal border crossing. I know, I used it!

So, I am really interested to try and understand why you believe there are no borders...

There is no border around Gaza. Only the green line. You would think there is a border when you cross it because it is under military control. Israel controls the border between Jordan and the West Bank, (Palestinian occupied territory) but you would think you are entering Israel. Similarly, going from the West Bank into Israel there is a "border crossing" even though there is only the green line. The green line is not a political or territorial border between countries. It merely determined military movement within Palestine.

Israel likes to pretend it has borders.

Looks like you like to do a lot of pretending yourself TinFoilHat

Israel has very definite borders. But they share a lot of land with the Arabs in Israel and now the Arabs pretend its there's ;-)

 

[P F Tinmore]

Why do they always show Israel inside fake borders?

Where ARE the borders then?

There aren't any.

Ok, so, for my own peace of mind and clarity...

Can you please explain why you think that there are no borders?

I'm curious, because when I was in Jordan there was definitely a border crossing into Israel, a full, and legal border crossing. I know, I used it!

So, I am really interested to try and understand why you believe there are no borders...

There is no border around Gaza. Only the green line. You would think there is a border when you cross it because it is under military control. Israel controls the border between Jordan and the West Bank, (Palestinian occupied territory) but you would think you are entering Israel. Similarly, going from the West Bank into Israel there is a "border crossing" even though there is only the green line. The green line is not a political or territorial border between countries. It merely determined military movement within Palestine.

Israel likes to pretend it has borders.

Looks like you like to do a lot of pretending yourself TinFoilHat

Israel has very definite borders. But they share a lot of land with the Arabs in Israel and now the Arabs pretend its there's ;-)

Links?

 

[Boston1]

Links ? Oh sure, no problem ;-)

 

[Shusha]

You have the patience of a saint!

Is you head not hurting yet?

I enjoy the legal arguments, so when Tinmore is actually debating, I find it interesting. Its when he runs out of useful arguments and just posts, "links?" that I want to bang my head against a brick.