Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

[rylah]

I don't agree. Hamas has done little for the Palestinians. Hamas is for Hamas. They won an election because they Fatah's corruption became unbearable. Hamas has not shown itself to be any better.

What have they done to improve the lot of the Palestinians? Have they invested in economies? Infrastructure? Schools? Peace partnerships with anyone?

As a matter of fact, they have. The problem is, Hamas completes street improvements on a Gaza street by putting up street lights and the IDF comes along later and shoots out the lamps at the top.

What has Hamas invested into the Gaza economy? Besides tunnels and rockets?

The minimum needed to keep receiving more aid and keep the struggle, all the luxury in Gaza is coming from Emirates money because they're more strict about the spending.

So I suggest that a better question is how much peanuts have been diverted from Hamas pockets to the people on the order of Qatar, and who else is in power to influence Hamas.. or make them irrelevant?

 

[Shusha]

people who are fishing respect the blockade

This is just Israel BS...

How many Gazan fishermen are smuggling weapon OUT of Gaza?

It's not a blockade of Gazan fishermen that is required it is an exclusion zone to stop boats coming IN.

However, an exclusion zone, in international waters, would be against international law so, it's just easier for Israel to break international law and blockade Gazan fishermen!

There is nothing illegal about a blockade. Perfectly legit form of warfare. The only time it is illegal is when it is set up in the territorial waters of a neutral nation.

And what the "fishermen" DO is pick up transfers of smuggled weapons and bring them to shore. OR, as is the case earlier this month -- they plan attacks on Israeli ships.

 

[Shusha]

I am not whining. I am just pointing out that Israel never gave gave them a chance and you are ignoring that while justifying the blockade. The blockade was not just. It went up ahead of any offensive actions towards Israel, because Israel refused to accept the results of the election. It promptly ended any possibility for peace as effectively as any violence.

The blockade IS perfectly justifiable. Whether it was a decade ago is immaterial to this discussion, though I'd argue that was then as well. Hamas was designated a terrorist organization in 2002 by Canada and 2003 by the US. Hamas stated that it would not recognize Israel, would not make peace with Israel and would not honor existing agreements and treaties with Israel. All valid reasons to institute a blockade. Not to mention the fact that Fatah and Hamas were throwing each other off buildings.

And not only that, it reeks of victim-blaming in the sense, "Its all Israel's fault -- if only they had made peace with a terrorist organization there wouldn't have been any violence". Again, its reversing cause and effect. The blockade was a REACTION to a threat to Israel.

And it doesn't explain or excuse what Hamas should be doing NOW to police its own people and prevent them from making unwarranted and belligerent attacks on Israel.

 

[Humanity]

people who are fishing respect the blockade

This is just Israel BS...

How many Gazan fishermen are smuggling weapon OUT of Gaza?

It's not a blockade of Gazan fishermen that is required it is an exclusion zone to stop boats coming IN.

However, an exclusion zone, in international waters, would be against international law so, it's just easier for Israel to break international law and blockade Gazan fishermen!

There is nothing illegal about a blockade. Perfectly legit form of warfare. The only time it is illegal is when it is set up in the territorial waters of a neutral nation.

And what the "fishermen" DO is pick up transfers of smuggled weapons and bring them to shore. OR, as is the case earlier this month -- they plan attacks on Israeli ships.

It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!

You then go on to justify it as a "form of warfare"... You are fucking kidding me!!!

So, please, can you stop bleating about 'attacks' against Israel... Surely, they are legitimate forms of warfare!

Oh no, wait, sorry, I forgot, every piece of BS you post applies ONLY to Israel and how amazing and legitimate Israel is!

However, you, as usual, miss the point because it points out, again, the failing of Israel...

If there has to be an illegal, unjustified blockade then blockade those who try and enter an exclusion zone, NOT those who are going to to feed themselves and their families!

And you are suggesting that a pretty ancient fishing vessel is going out, into open waters, to attack a heavily armed Israeli navy vessel?

Wow, you are really stretching the realms of reality with that one!

 

[Humanity]

OUT of Gaza? I'm sure You meant INTO Gaza.

I know what I meant!

Blockading fishermen LEAVING Gaza is wrong. Why? Because they aren't smuggling weapons OUT of Gaza are they!!!

Let the fishermen fish where they want and, if Israel has to blockade then blockade boats coming INTO Gaza!

If you engage brain you will see the reality! You should try it some time!

 

[Humanity]

all civilians on the field of battle are the responsibility of the sovereign in control of those civilians

That is the biggest bullshit statement I have seen amoungst the rest of the bullshit statements being banded around here by Team Israel!!!

 

[rylah]

OUT of Gaza? I'm sure You meant INTO Gaza.

I know what I meant!

Blockading fishermen LEAVING Gaza is wrong. Why? Because they aren't smuggling weapons OUT of Gaza are they!!!

Let the fishermen fish where they want and, if Israel has to blockade then blockade boats coming INTO Gaza!

If you engage brain you will see the reality! You should try it some time!

The trafficking doesn't come directly by boats but under the surface. The further Gazan smugglers are allowed to reach the harder it is to oversee, and exposure to a greater potential of an international provocation.

Neither Israel nor Egypt owe anything to the Gazans. They were suggested a port with oil and airport, they refused - WHY? because Jews.

Their problem, we're not naive. When and if they wise up and get their act together, in some 2 decades, they can start attempting to explain why they deserve peace from us, or anything. Not the other way around.

There's no other way to deal with suicidal racketeers. Read about Hudna.

 

[Shusha]

It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!

What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.

But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.

 

[Shusha]

all civilians on the field of battle are the responsibility of the sovereign in control of those civilians

That is the biggest bullshit statement I have seen amoungst the rest of the bullshit statements being banded around here by Team Israel!!!

It's another point of international law.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Coyote, et al,

Your observation and analysis are, stand-alone, very true. But there are two sides to the one facet, tied to the many facets here.

Clearly, Israel is NOT the unassailable actor in the Region; nor is it the poster child for narcissistic behaviors. At face value, the Israelis would rather like other nations and cultures to be envious of their accomplishments and achievements, which stand on their own merit. But those accomplishments and achievements mean very little when they constantly under allegation one regional neighbor or another for some outrage --- something almost impossible to defend against.

And while the Israeli’s dislike the constant and intense criticisms and are reluctant to take responsibility for any adverse events without a thorough understanding of the facts, the Israeli’s know that it is foolish to hold the position that they are never in the wrong → or → do not make mistakes.

I doubt the Palestinians killed him. Israel is not denying they shot him. Sometimes Rocco, Israel’s actions ARE wrong. They are no more the perpetual victim then the Pali’s, and sometimes the Palestinians are right. There is the frequent refrain that Israel is always evil...but you ignore the other refrain that Israel can do no wrong.

(COMMENT)

I am probably more wrong, for trying to defend the national home of a people that have been under constant criticism since it was agreed upon by the Principle Allied Powers of the Great War, nearly a century ago.

In the scheme of things, the Israelis know that as far as the security situations go (with a beginning a middle and an end), they are just entering the downhill slalom of a 100 years war. They are caught in a continuous history of a series of endless cycle persecution and prosperity with a diminishing number of their kind at the end of each cycle. And as they turn into the very first shadow of the persecution phase, knowing that there is nothing they can do to stop it happening, they can look down the line of possible alternative and the decision potentials, each more perilous than the next, they know, that in the end, they will once again stand alone; like the thousand times previously they have been expelled.

Are the Arab Palestinians always wrong? That is a statistical impossibility. The problem (who's right - who's wrong) rests in probabilities, but every time a criminal event occurs, it’s big news. And without regard to - who did what to whom — it can (and often does) spark large and rough protests by those who want the Jewish footprint in the occupied territories to shrink; if not disappear completely.

In the case of the recent protest along the border, it is virtually impossible for any more than 3% of them to be a possible Right of Return candidate. You would have to be 70+ years old. So there must be a (very high probability that there exists) strong yet hidden agenda. Making it more probable that the Arab Palestinians had something to do with the shooting of the Journalist.

But yes, probably the reason that the Israelis have been so quiet on the matter is that the potential for a positive impression is better than saying anything.

Your observation and analysis are, stand-alone, very true.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Humanity]

It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!

What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.

But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.

Collective punishment is in breach of international and humanitarian law!

The Israeli blockade is collective punishment!

Thus, the blockades are illegal.

I know it hurts Team Israel to be shown that, well, actually, Israel is NOT always on the right side of the law!

 

[Humanity]

all civilians on the field of battle are the responsibility of the sovereign in control of those civilians

That is the biggest bullshit statement I have seen amoungst the rest of the bullshit statements being banded around here by Team Israel!!!

It's another point of international law.

Incredible Shusha...

Seems that you can ONLY apply international law when it suits Israel. If it doesn't suit Israel then it doesn't count!

What a joke!

 

[Humanity]

all civilians on the field of battle are the responsibility of the sovereign in control of those civilians

That is the biggest bullshit statement I have seen amoungst the rest of the bullshit statements being banded around here by Team Israel!!!

It's another point of international law.

I am intrigued though to hear what international law validates what you are saying.

Care to share a link or do you just expect us to believe every word Team Israel spouts?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Right of return for whom? To where?

For them, to there.

They're already there. No need to return.

 

[Humanity]

It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!

What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.

But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.

I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!

I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?

 

[Indeependent]

It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!

What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.

But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.

I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!

I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?

So when are you moving to Eastern Gaza?

 

[Humanity]

It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!

What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.

But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.

I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!

I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?

So when are you moving to Eastern Gaza?

When you do

 

[Indeependent]

It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!

What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.

But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.

I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!

I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?

So when are you moving to Eastern Gaza?

When you do

I’m not the one making up bullshit stories that Jews who live in Israel are murderers.

 

[Shusha]

It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!

What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.

But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.

I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!

I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?

I have NEVER defended the killing of unarmed civilians.

I DO defend Israel's right to protect its border up to and including the use of lethal force when necessary. It becomes necessary when combatants attempt to infiltrate Israel or use lethal weapons against Israelis.

I DO also require Hamas to be held responsible for activity on their side of the fence including policing and protection of unarmed civilians.

Our fundamental argument here is that you don't seem to think there is anything BUT unarmed civilians despite plenty of credible evidence to the contrary.

 

[Coyote]

I am not whining. I am just pointing out that Israel never gave gave them a chance and you are ignoring that while justifying the blockade. The blockade was not just. It went up ahead of any offensive actions towards Israel, because Israel refused to accept the results of the election. It promptly ended any possibility for peace as effectively as any violence.

The blockade IS perfectly justifiable. Whether it was a decade ago is immaterial to this discussion, though I'd argue that was then as well. Hamas was designated a terrorist organization in 2002 by Canada and 2003 by the US. Hamas stated that it would not recognize Israel, would not make peace with Israel and would not honor existing agreements and treaties with Israel. All valid reasons to institute a blockade. Not to mention the fact that Fatah and Hamas were throwing each other off buildings.

And not only that, it reeks of victim-blaming in the sense, "Its all Israel's fault -- if only they had made peace with a terrorist organization there wouldn't have been any violence". Again, its reversing cause and effect. The blockade was a REACTION to a threat to Israel.

And it doesn't explain or excuse what Hamas should be doing NOW to police its own people and prevent them from making unwarranted and belligerent attacks on Israel.

I never said it was all Israel's fault. I said that Israel instituted the blockade upon the election of Hamas. Not upon any escalation of violence but upon the results of an election they did not like . That IS collective punishment.

The situation now, of course has changed but you cannot just view it in a vacuum.Ignore the beginning when it has likely affected what is happening now.