Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

[P F Tinmore]

Actually after reading this....
Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests

I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence. Israel does have a right to defend it's border.

This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.

We agree.

But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse.

The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc

But how does Gaza get THERE from here? At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election - that is essentially the way I see how it started, and that has only made the situation worse for them, and perhaps ultimately Israel - not better.

Here is an interesting article from February:

IDF chief said to warn Gaza war likely if humanitarian crisis persists

IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot warned ministers during a cabinet meeting on Sunday that Israel could soon face another war with Gaza-based terror group Hamas, as a result of the deteriorating humanitarian and economic conditions in the coastal enclave, according to Israeli television reports.

In his briefing, Eisenkot pointed to the lack of electricity, drinkable water, and food in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10.

...In a security assessment handed recently to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the defense establishment reiterated its belief that Hamas is not interested in another conflict with Israel. However, an economic collapse would make such a scenario inevitable.

Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority in 2007, has been under increasing pressure as the coastal enclave teeters on the verge of an economic and infrastructure collapse that UN Middle East peace envoy Nickolay Mladenov last week said was already “well beyond” a humanitarian crisis.​

But the response is not rockets, it is an unarmed protest. Israel responds with violence because that is the only tool in their box.

 

[Coyote]

I think that is a good question. It seems smoke bombs and teargas would have been a better response than live ammo.

They used those things. It did not deter everyone. What then?

increase them. Add water cannons if avsilable. Rubber bullets.

Why should a protest be "put down?" Shouldn't the Palestinians have free speech?

Free speech does not extend to property destruction or crashing another country's border.

How peaceful would those protests be if they were not shot at as a first response. Israel initiated the violence.

Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?

 

[Coyote]

Actually after reading this....
Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests

I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence. Israel does have a right to defend it's border.

This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.

We agree.

But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse.

The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc

But how does Gaza get THERE from here? At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election - that is essentially the way I see how it started, and that has only made the situation worse for them, and perhaps ultimately Israel - not better.

Here is an interesting article from February:

IDF chief said to warn Gaza war likely if humanitarian crisis persists

IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot warned ministers during a cabinet meeting on Sunday that Israel could soon face another war with Gaza-based terror group Hamas, as a result of the deteriorating humanitarian and economic conditions in the coastal enclave, according to Israeli television reports.

In his briefing, Eisenkot pointed to the lack of electricity, drinkable water, and food in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10.

...In a security assessment handed recently to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the defense establishment reiterated its belief that Hamas is not interested in another conflict with Israel. However, an economic collapse would make such a scenario inevitable.

Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority in 2007, has been under increasing pressure as the coastal enclave teeters on the verge of an economic and infrastructure collapse that UN Middle East peace envoy Nickolay Mladenov last week said was already “well beyond” a humanitarian crisis.​

But the response is not rockets, it is an unarmed protest. Israel responds with violence because that is the only tool in their box.

They're attempting to rip down the fence and Israel DID use smoke bombs, tear gas and they still kept trying.

In all honesty I have to ask - what should they do?

 

[P F Tinmore]

They used those things. It did not deter everyone. What then?

increase them. Add water cannons if avsilable. Rubber bullets.

Why should a protest be "put down?" Shouldn't the Palestinians have free speech?

Free speech does not extend to property destruction or crashing another country's border.

How peaceful would those protests be if they were not shot at as a first response. Israel initiated the violence.

Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?

Israel is allowed to arrest them. Read article 68 that Rocco posts all of the time.

 

[Coyote]

increase them. Add water cannons if avsilable. Rubber bullets.

Why should a protest be "put down?" Shouldn't the Palestinians have free speech?

Free speech does not extend to property destruction or crashing another country's border.

How peaceful would those protests be if they were not shot at as a first response. Israel initiated the violence.

Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?

Israel is allowed to arrest them. Read article 68 that Rocco posts all of the time.

They are essentially hostile foreign nationals attempting to crash the border. They are known to have carried out terrorist activities in Israel. They were storming the fence in large numbers, trying to tear it down in what really can't be called a peaceful manner.

So...I have to say, what are Israel's options when smokebombs and teargas fail? It's a bad situation all around isn't it?

 

[Hollie]

Actually after reading this....
Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests

I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence. Israel does have a right to defend it's border.

This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.

We agree.

But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse.

The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc

But how does Gaza get THERE from here? At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election - that is essentially the way I see how it started, and that has only made the situation worse for them, and perhaps ultimately Israel - not better.

Here is an interesting article from February:

IDF chief said to warn Gaza war likely if humanitarian crisis persists

IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot warned ministers during a cabinet meeting on Sunday that Israel could soon face another war with Gaza-based terror group Hamas, as a result of the deteriorating humanitarian and economic conditions in the coastal enclave, according to Israeli television reports.

In his briefing, Eisenkot pointed to the lack of electricity, drinkable water, and food in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10.

...In a security assessment handed recently to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the defense establishment reiterated its belief that Hamas is not interested in another conflict with Israel. However, an economic collapse would make such a scenario inevitable.

Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority in 2007, has been under increasing pressure as the coastal enclave teeters on the verge of an economic and infrastructure collapse that UN Middle East peace envoy Nickolay Mladenov last week said was already “well beyond” a humanitarian crisis.​

But the response is not rockets, it is an unarmed protest. Israel responds with violence because that is the only tool in their box.

You mean the Arabs-Moslems staged unarmed protests excepting those protestors who were armed.

 

[Coyote]

Actually after reading this....
Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests

I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence. Israel does have a right to defend it's border.

This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.

We agree.

But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse.

The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc

But how does Gaza get THERE from here? At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election - that is essentially the way I see how it started, and that has only made the situation worse for them, and perhaps ultimately Israel - not better.

Here is an interesting article from February:

IDF chief said to warn Gaza war likely if humanitarian crisis persists

IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot warned ministers during a cabinet meeting on Sunday that Israel could soon face another war with Gaza-based terror group Hamas, as a result of the deteriorating humanitarian and economic conditions in the coastal enclave, according to Israeli television reports.

In his briefing, Eisenkot pointed to the lack of electricity, drinkable water, and food in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10.

...In a security assessment handed recently to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the defense establishment reiterated its belief that Hamas is not interested in another conflict with Israel. However, an economic collapse would make such a scenario inevitable.

Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority in 2007, has been under increasing pressure as the coastal enclave teeters on the verge of an economic and infrastructure collapse that UN Middle East peace envoy Nickolay Mladenov last week said was already “well beyond” a humanitarian crisis.​

But the response is not rockets, it is an unarmed protest. Israel responds with violence because that is the only tool in their box.

You mean the Arabs-Moslems staged unarmed protests excepting those protestors who were armed.

They were? They didn't seem to have killed or injured anyone.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Why should a protest be "put down?" Shouldn't the Palestinians have free speech?

Free speech does not extend to property destruction or crashing another country's border.

How peaceful would those protests be if they were not shot at as a first response. Israel initiated the violence.

Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?

Israel is allowed to arrest them. Read article 68 that Rocco posts all of the time.

They are essentially hostile foreign nationals attempting to crash the border. They are known to have carried out terrorist activities in Israel. They were storming the fence in large numbers, trying to tear it down in what really can't be called a peaceful manner.

So...I have to say, what are Israel's options when smokebombs and teargas fail? It's a bad situation all around isn't it?

Every video I have seen where there were people at the border there were only 3 - 4 people.

 

[Hollie]

Actually after reading this....
Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests

I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence. Israel does have a right to defend it's border.

This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.

We agree.

But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse.

The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc

But how does Gaza get THERE from here? At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election - that is essentially the way I see how it started, and that has only made the situation worse for them, and perhaps ultimately Israel - not better.

Here is an interesting article from February:

IDF chief said to warn Gaza war likely if humanitarian crisis persists

IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot warned ministers during a cabinet meeting on Sunday that Israel could soon face another war with Gaza-based terror group Hamas, as a result of the deteriorating humanitarian and economic conditions in the coastal enclave, according to Israeli television reports.

In his briefing, Eisenkot pointed to the lack of electricity, drinkable water, and food in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10.

...In a security assessment handed recently to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the defense establishment reiterated its belief that Hamas is not interested in another conflict with Israel. However, an economic collapse would make such a scenario inevitable.

Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority in 2007, has been under increasing pressure as the coastal enclave teeters on the verge of an economic and infrastructure collapse that UN Middle East peace envoy Nickolay Mladenov last week said was already “well beyond” a humanitarian crisis.​

But the response is not rockets, it is an unarmed protest. Israel responds with violence because that is the only tool in their box.

You mean the Arabs-Moslems staged unarmed protests excepting those protestors who were armed.

They were? They didn't seem to have killed or injured anyone.

Are you excluding Molotov cocktails and explosives as weapons?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore, Coyote, et al,

Article 68, Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV) is not really applicable in this case. The issue is a matter for domestic border security and immigration. The Border Police (Gendarmerie)(a major asset within the Israeli National Police) "can" make apprehensions as a national law enforcement effort.

Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?

Israel is allowed to arrest them. Read article 68 that Rocco posts all of the time.

(COMMENT)

It is the Israel Defense Force (IDF) job to prevent an attack and penetration by any hostile force. The purpose is to mount a dedicated effort to defend the Israeli People, to guard the Jewish Homeland and security for the future of the Jewish people and the sovereignty of the state.

If the Arab Palestinians attempt to swamp the barriers in an effort to breach the border, the Israelis will have to make a choice: Whether or not to consider the aggressors as a massive civilian immigration effort by force, → or → a Rule 97 use of civilians by a hostie nation to gain a political advantage they could not achieve by International Law and Peaceful Means.

Article 68 only applies to an Occupation. It does not apply to Israeli Sovereign Territory (on one side of the border) → or → Gaza Territory (on the other side of the border) remanded to the Arab Palestinians in the 2005 unilateral withdraw.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore, Coyote, et al,

Article 68, Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV) is not really applicable in this case. The issue is a matter for domestic border security and immigration. The Border Police (Gendarmerie)(a major asset within the Israeli National Police) "can" make apprehensions as a national law enforcement effort.

Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?

Israel is allowed to arrest them. Read article 68 that Rocco posts all of the time.

(COMMENT)

It is the Israel Defense Force (IDF) job to prevent an attack and penetration by any hostile force. The purpose is to mount a dedicated effort to defend the Israeli People, to guard the Jewish Homeland and security for the future of the Jewish people and the sovereignty of the state.

If the Arab Palestinians attempt to swamp the barriers in an effort to breach the border, the Israelis will have to make a choice: Whether or not to consider the aggressors as a massive civilian immigration effort by force, → or → a Rule 97 use of civilians by a hostie nation to gain a political advantage they could not achieve by International Law and Peaceful Means.

Article 68 only applies to an Occupation. It does not apply to Israeli Sovereign Territory (on one side of the border) → or → Gaza Territory (on the other side of the border) remanded to the Arab Palestinians in the 2005 unilateral withdraw.

Most Respectfully,
R

Does that give Israel the right to shoot fish in a barrel?

 

[Billo_Really]

Not what the report states.

It states the area will be uninhabitable by 2020. What do you think "uninhabitable" means?

 

[Billo_Really]

Winning once is enough. Arabs-Moslems voted in their own dictatorial oppressors who have since refused any “democratic” elections. Do you know that democracy is shirk in the view of Islamist sharia? No. You didn’t.

Words thrown carelessly around tend to lose any connection to their intrinsic meaning. There is nothing “democratic” about Islamism or retrograde Islamist sharia. Theocratic totalitarianism is the polar opposite of western liberal democracy. Notice they’re even spelled differently.

There's nothing democratic with Israel's fascist tyranny the Pals are forced to live under.

 

[Billo_Really]

It's stupid to ask someone to recognize you exist, after you already do.

It's dumber to deny you have the right to exist, after you already do.

This is a stupid issue to be talking about.

 

[Billo_Really]

What land is owned by the competing Islamic terrorist franchises of Islamic Terrorism Intl. Inc. occupying the geographic you call Pal’istan?

It doesn't matter who owns it. It only matters that Israel doesn't.

 

[Billo_Really]

Israeli talking point. Nobody has ever proven that to be true.

Hamas claims Israel must be totally destroyed wiped from existence and they promote support and actively engage in violence to accomplish that goal. And you defend them.[/QUOTE]After what Israel has done to them, how could you blame them?

At least they don't have to lie in order to justify their argument.

So tell me, what does Israeli butt taste like?

 

[Coyote]

Free speech does not extend to property destruction or crashing another country's border.

How peaceful would those protests be if they were not shot at as a first response. Israel initiated the violence.

Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?

Israel is allowed to arrest them. Read article 68 that Rocco posts all of the time.

They are essentially hostile foreign nationals attempting to crash the border. They are known to have carried out terrorist activities in Israel. They were storming the fence in large numbers, trying to tear it down in what really can't be called a peaceful manner.

So...I have to say, what are Israel's options when smokebombs and teargas fail? It's a bad situation all around isn't it?

Every video I have seen where there were people at the border there were only 3 - 4 people.

I can't tell...I googled images gaza protest - Google Search:

But it's really impossible to tell.

 

[Coyote]

We agree.

But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse.

The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc

But how does Gaza get THERE from here? At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election - that is essentially the way I see how it started, and that has only made the situation worse for them, and perhaps ultimately Israel - not better.

Here is an interesting article from February:

IDF chief said to warn Gaza war likely if humanitarian crisis persists

IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot warned ministers during a cabinet meeting on Sunday that Israel could soon face another war with Gaza-based terror group Hamas, as a result of the deteriorating humanitarian and economic conditions in the coastal enclave, according to Israeli television reports.

In his briefing, Eisenkot pointed to the lack of electricity, drinkable water, and food in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10.

...In a security assessment handed recently to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the defense establishment reiterated its belief that Hamas is not interested in another conflict with Israel. However, an economic collapse would make such a scenario inevitable.

Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority in 2007, has been under increasing pressure as the coastal enclave teeters on the verge of an economic and infrastructure collapse that UN Middle East peace envoy Nickolay Mladenov last week said was already “well beyond” a humanitarian crisis.​

But the response is not rockets, it is an unarmed protest. Israel responds with violence because that is the only tool in their box.

You mean the Arabs-Moslems staged unarmed protests excepting those protestors who were armed.

They were? They didn't seem to have killed or injured anyone.

Are you excluding Molotov cocktails and explosives as weapons?

Armed.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I already said it once. The Arab Palestinian instigators, with the purpose of creating a media event, cannot use civilians to hide behind as a means to avoid IDF targeting. That is Rules, 23, 24, and 97. It is not a case of "shooting fish in a barrel." In fact, the HAMAS instigator is actually, under most case law, guilty of murder in any death on the border related to the commission of grievous bodily harm.

Justifiable use of force

• Defense of a Person
• Defense of Occupied Structure
• Use of Force in Defense of State Property serious damage or destruction
• Use of Force in defense of an attack
• Use of Force to Prevent Escape from Custody​

Does that give Israel the right to shoot fish in a barrel?

(COMMENT)

The Government of the Gaza Strip, which seems to be HAMAS, is using civilians in a way that is criminal in the eyes of domestic law. Human Wave attacks (swamping the border for political gain) is not an acceptable practice. Once the illegals immigrants step on sovereign Israeli Territory, new rules of domestic law kick-in. The very same way as when illegal aliens enter the US.

HAMAS Leaders are guilty of murder (in one form or another) in any border death, resulting from the instigated efforts they inspired. All most universally accepted justification for the use of forces by LEO's are:

IF you don't want to see demonstrators and protestors hurt, injured or killed, THEN don't advocate challenging the border. Mob violence is one of those chaotic events that can run out of control.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It's stupid to ask someone to recognize you exist, after you already do.

It's dumber to deny you have the right to exist, after you already do.

This is a stupid issue to be talking about.

Count on the Palestinians to fuck themselves up over such a stupid issue.