Israeli illegal settlements

[Shusha]

Amona residents agree to relocate.

The residents of Amona have reached an agreement with the government of Israel in which they will relocate. Some will relocate to Ofra, others to a nearby plot of land which is not privately owned by Arab Palestinians.

 

[Lipush]

Our only hope is that the horrifying incidents of 'The Amona Pogrom' won't happen again.

 

[Shusha]

Our only hope is that the horrifying incidents of 'The Amona Pogrom' won't happen again.

Would you be able to elaborate on what you mean?

 

[Lipush]

Our only hope is that the horrifying incidents of 'The Amona Pogrom' won't happen again.

Would you be able to elaborate on what you mean?

At the beginning of 2006, the first destruction of Amona Houses took place. When the forces arrived to take down the houses, they were faced with large resistence, and the consqeuences were harsh. More than 200 people were injured, some of them critically. At first the media reported that the injuries were due to the settlers throwing stones and violently attacking the officers, but when photos and videos came in, it was clear why so many were hurt. The officers were doing things that reminded us of dark times in Russia and Poland. I nevr thoughts Jews could do such things to one another. Women, children, innocent people just trying to defend themselves against the cops. It was nothing BUT a pogrom.

Even the most leftists in the coverment cringed with inconvenience when the photos came in. There was a large investigation about it, since the result when even more difficult with the result of the disangagement, and we talk about a comunity 10 times as large than amona.

This is the photo that went viral at the time:

And some of the videos (not easy to watch)

 

[Shusha]

Our only hope is that the horrifying incidents of 'The Amona Pogrom' won't happen again.

Would you be able to elaborate on what you mean?

At the beginning of 2006, the first destruction of Amona Houses took place. When the forces arrived to take down the houses, they were faced with large resistence, and the consqeuences were harsh. More than 200 people were injured, some of them critically. At first the media reported that the injuries were due to the settlers throwing stones and violently attacking the officers, but when photos and videos came in, it was clear why so many were hurt. The officers were doing things that reminded us of dark times in Russia and Poland. I nevr thoughts Jews could do such things to one another. Women, children, innocent people just trying to defend themselves against the cops. It was nothing BUT a pogrom.

Help me out here. This looks very much like a double standard.

If the objective rule is that people should not be permitted to build without government permission (a very good rule which is practiced in most modern societies where land is under some contention) why is it a "pogrom" when done to Jews and a-okay when done to Arabs? If the objective rule is that resistance to government authority is to be met with law enforcement, why is it a "pogrom" to enforce the law with respect to Jews and a-okay to enforce the law when done to Arabs? If the objective rule is that non-lethal force is acceptable, why is it a "pogrom" when done to Jews and a-okay when done to Arabs? If the objective rule is to meet violence with violence why is it a "pogrom" when done to Jews and a-okay when done to Arabs?

I mean, its possible I misunderstand you and you would consider this type of violent, but non-lethal, law enforcement against Arabs to also be a pogrom, and if so, please correct me. But I'm seeing a double standard.

Outposts are illegal, and as such, should be dismantled no matter who built them.

 

[Lipush]

Our only hope is that the horrifying incidents of 'The Amona Pogrom' won't happen again.

Would you be able to elaborate on what you mean?

At the beginning of 2006, the first destruction of Amona Houses took place. When the forces arrived to take down the houses, they were faced with large resistence, and the consqeuences were harsh. More than 200 people were injured, some of them critically. At first the media reported that the injuries were due to the settlers throwing stones and violently attacking the officers, but when photos and videos came in, it was clear why so many were hurt. The officers were doing things that reminded us of dark times in Russia and Poland. I nevr thoughts Jews could do such things to one another. Women, children, innocent people just trying to defend themselves against the cops. It was nothing BUT a pogrom.

Help me out here. This looks very much like a double standard.

If the objective rule is that people should not be permitted to build without government permission (a very good rule which is practiced in most modern societies where land is under some contention) why is it a "pogrom" when done to Jews and a-okay when done to Arabs? If the objective rule is that resistance to government authority is to be met with law enforcement, why is it a "pogrom" to enforce the law with respect to Jews and a-okay to enforce the law when done to Arabs? If the objective rule is that non-lethal force is acceptable, why is it a "pogrom" when done to Jews and a-okay when done to Arabs? If the objective rule is to meet violence with violence why is it a "pogrom" when done to Jews and a-okay when done to Arabs?

I mean, its possible I misunderstand you and you would consider this type of violent, but non-lethal, law enforcement against Arabs to also be a pogrom, and if so, please correct me. But I'm seeing a double standard.

Outposts are illegal, and as such, should be dismantled no matter who built them.

Sorry, my friend, but what you're saying is simply NOT true.

Amona was first establish with the FULL SUPPORT of the Israeli government. Just like about 70% of the settlements, if not more.

You're more than welcome to research the history of Amona. It was first intended to be a watersource of water copmany Mekorot, and when Israeli Jews chose to come and settle, they had the full backup in doing so, by the ministry of housing. There were thousands of Shekels invested in developing Amond during the 90s.

If you look at the year 2005, the disangagement, people where also trying to prevent the evacuation of Gush Katis, and we did not reach that much blood being spilled. Bluntly speaking, this army was not built to destroy Jewish towns, sorry, but that my simplest thinking, which can or cannot be argued with. But that is besides the point. When the forces want, they can deal with resistence without spilling blood. We saw this happen. But how it came to the situation in which more than 200 people were hurt, many of them women and children, it was the copmlete responsibility of the forces. When we had Betselem(!) organization calling the action brutal, and saying there was too much force being used against the poeple of Amona (and they hate the settlers), that is when you know something was rotten in denmark. There was a wide investigation of those incidents in the following months, and that is because they themselves relized something was wrong with the process.

The people should have respected the goverments decision, that is without saying. But they had also the right to protest it. In no way it should have ended the way it did, sorry.

(Oh, and by the way, if we are talking double standards, why is nothing being done against the *dozens* of the Arabs illegal outposts in the Negev desert? I think it's very convenient that justice is only there when Jews are concerned. Just saying.)

 

[Shusha]

I am having trouble finding a source which explains the Israeli governments initial support for the outpost. The sources I'm seeing show that the government tried to remove it very quickly after it was built.

 

[Shusha]

The more I read about the land settlement issues, the more I realize how horribly complicated it is. So many complicating issues which would be complicated even if there was no political dispute over sovereignty.

• the "Western" ideas of privately owned land are so very different than the concept of land "ownership" in Israel/Palestine.
• private land, miri land, mewat land
• squatters rights
• cultivated or not cultivated
• registered or not registered
• personal ownership and village ownership
• ownership based primarily on narrative
• false documentation (on both sides)
• Jordanian law, Ottoman law, Israeli law, international law
• interference by foreign outsiders (and no I don't mean Jewish returnees)

Its the kind of thing that will send you into a tizzy even without the political aspects and ethnic conflict.

So, for example, Amona. The theory of land ownership in the Ottoman times was basically if you lived on it and cultivated it -- you owned it. (Sometimes as a family, and sometimes as a village). So Jews should be just a permitted to squat to ownership as Arabs should, if we are being fair. So Amona should be legal, right? Except that nine local Arab families say that this land is "privately owned" by them. What land? Well, all of it. Its not properly been surveyed or anything, but our family has "always" used that valley to graze our 100 sheep. But then it turns out that the family was "granted" the land by the Jordanians in 1956 to family members who don't exist or can't be located in any records of the time. And it turns out that some of it was cultivated, but most of it is "dead land" which has never been cultivated or used. And then it turns out that the Arab family moved onto the tract of land in 1934, immigrating from Lebanon, the same year that the Jewish family down the block did, immigrating from Europe. But then the Amona Jewish families claim to have purchased the land, but the documents are forged.

Its a freaking mess! How do you decide what is fair here?

 

[Hollie]

Yeah right.

Manipulated picture as you have been shown many times before, the IDF are treating the child for his injuries and the islamonazis like yourself are trying to claim that the IDF were to blame for the injuries

Pallywood Production Studios, Inc.

Your friend Monty cut and pasted this same, silly video. It stars that queen of PallyWood Studios, Shirley Temper.

I know, rright? You and Monty suffer from the same affliction.

 

[rhodescholar]

Our only hope is that the horrifying incidents of 'The Amona Pogrom' won't happen again.

Would you be able to elaborate on what you mean?

At the beginning of 2006, the first destruction of Amona Houses took place. When the forces arrived to take down the houses, they were faced with large resistence, and the consqeuences were harsh. More than 200 people were injured, some of them critically. At first the media reported that the injuries were due to the settlers throwing stones and violently attacking the officers, but when photos and videos came in, it was clear why so many were hurt. The officers were doing things that reminded us of dark times in Russia and Poland. I nevr thoughts Jews could do such things to one another. Women, children, innocent people just trying to defend themselves against the cops. It was nothing BUT a pogrom.

Help me out here. This looks very much like a double standard.

If the objective rule is that people should not be permitted to build without government permission (a very good rule which is practiced in most modern societies where land is under some contention) why is it a "pogrom" when done to Jews and a-okay when done to Arabs? If the objective rule is that resistance to government authority is to be met with law enforcement, why is it a "pogrom" to enforce the law with respect to Jews and a-okay to enforce the law when done to Arabs? If the objective rule is that non-lethal force is acceptable, why is it a "pogrom" when done to Jews and a-okay when done to Arabs? If the objective rule is to meet violence with violence why is it a "pogrom" when done to Jews and a-okay when done to Arabs?

I mean, its possible I misunderstand you and you would consider this type of violent, but non-lethal, law enforcement against Arabs to also be a pogrom, and if so, please correct me. But I'm seeing a double standard.

Outposts are illegal, and as such, should be dismantled no matter who built them.

I do not recognize the rights of arab muslims in Israel, from the Jordan River up to and including Gaza, all of which Israel should have annexed and mass deported the arab muslims out of decades ago. The area known as the "west bank" today is rightfully jewish land, and jews should have every right to build and develop it as they see fit. Other than a handful of nomadic bedouins and some christians who geniunely have lived there for centuries, all the rest of the arab muslims who have emigrated from syria, jordan and egypt need to return to their homelands. I don't care if they moved into Israel 100 years ago; they are nothing other than an invasion force of degenerates, similar to the filth that swamped Europe over the past year or so. All are invaders who need to be sent back, no matter how badly the horrific corporate management scum wants them.

 

[montelatici]

The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the native inhabitants. There were hardly any Jews in Palestine before the Zionist invasion. The ancestors of the Muslim and Christian Palestinians practiced Judaism, Christianity and Roman religions prior to most of them converting to Islam. None immigrated to Palestine from Syria, Jordan or Syria. That's Zionist propaganda.

Fact:

AN INTERIM REPORT​

ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF​

​

PALESTINE,​

​

during the period
1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.​

AN INTERIM REPORT​

ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF
PALESTINE.​

​

I.--THE CONDITION OF PALESTINE AFTER THE WAR.

"There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ.* (*See Sir George Adam Smith "Historical Geography of the Holy Land", Chap. 20.) Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine."

https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/349B02280A930813052565E90048ED1C

 

[Kondor3]

The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the native inhabitants. There were hardly any Jews in Palestine before the Zionist invasion. The ancestors of the Muslim and Christian Palestinians practiced Judaism, Christianity and Roman religions prior to most of them converting to Islam. None immigrated to Palestine from Syria, Jordan or Syria. That's Zionist propaganda.

Fact:

AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF

PALESTINE,

during the period
1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.


AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF
PALESTINE.
​

I.--THE CONDITION OF PALESTINE AFTER THE WAR.

"There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ.* (*See Sir George Adam Smith "Historical Geography of the Holy Land", Chap. 20.) Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine."

Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations/Balfour Declaration text (30 July 1921)

Vae victis

 

[Hollie]

The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the native inhabitants. There were hardly any Jews in Palestine before the Zionist invasion. The ancestors of the Muslim and Christian Palestinians practiced Judaism, Christianity and Roman religions prior to most of them converting to Islam. None immigrated to Palestine from Syria, Jordan or Syria. That's Zionist propaganda.

Fact:

AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF

PALESTINE,

during the period
1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.


AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF
PALESTINE.
​

I.--THE CONDITION OF PALESTINE AFTER THE WAR.

"There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ.* (*See Sir George Adam Smith "Historical Geography of the Holy Land", Chap. 20.) Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine."

Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations/Balfour Declaration text (30 July 1921)

Fact!

Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

Even before 1917, Jewish and Zionist institutions had purchased large tracts of land in Palestine from absentee landlords, who lived mainly in Syria and Lebanon. These landlords had previously leased their property to local farmers, but were happy to sell it for the right price, without giving a thought to their tenant farmers. Nevertheless, Palestinians view these sales as more legitimate than those that took place during the British occupation that began in 1917.

 

[Lipush]

I am having trouble finding a source which explains the Israeli governments initial support for the outpost. The sources I'm seeing show that the government tried to remove it very quickly after it was built.

I could bring you the links I've found but they're all in Hebrew, It's a known things that you won't find the whole truth in foreign sources. Which is partly the problem.

 

[Shusha]

I am having trouble finding a source which explains the Israeli governments initial support for the outpost. The sources I'm seeing show that the government tried to remove it very quickly after it was built.

I could bring you the links I've found but they're all in Hebrew, It's a known things that you won't find the whole truth in foreign sources. Which is partly the problem.

I completely agree. I actually found quite a number of documents in Hebrew. I'm learning, but my Hebrew is still pretty kindergarten. Far too difficult for me to read.

But I do understand that the whole issue is complicated. (Which is why its taken 20 years to solve).

 

[Shusha]

I do not recognize the rights of arab muslims in Israel, from the Jordan River up to and including Gaza, all of which Israel should have annexed and mass deported the arab muslims out of decades ago. The area known as the "west bank" today is rightfully jewish land, and jews should have every right to build and develop it as they see fit.

The irony is that if the Jews had done what the Arabs did in the 1940s and 1950s, Israel would be as empty of Arab Muslims are as the Arab Muslim nations are of Jews and the conflict would have been over sixty years ago. And, while ethnic cleansing is morally wrong no matter who does it, I do sometimes wonder if it might have been the better, more practical outcome in the long term.

 

[Phoenall]

The more I read about the land settlement issues, the more I realize how horribly complicated it is. So many complicating issues which would be complicated even if there was no political dispute over sovereignty.

• the "Western" ideas of privately owned land are so very different than the concept of land "ownership" in Israel/Palestine.
• private land, miri land, mewat land
• squatters rights
• cultivated or not cultivated
• registered or not registered
• personal ownership and village ownership
• ownership based primarily on narrative
• false documentation (on both sides)
• Jordanian law, Ottoman law, Israeli law, international law
• interference by foreign outsiders (and no I don't mean Jewish returnees)

Its the kind of thing that will send you into a tizzy even without the political aspects and ethnic conflict.

So, for example, Amona. The theory of land ownership in the Ottoman times was basically if you lived on it and cultivated it -- you owned it. (Sometimes as a family, and sometimes as a village). So Jews should be just a permitted to squat to ownership as Arabs should, if we are being fair. So Amona should be legal, right? Except that nine local Arab families say that this land is "privately owned" by them. What land? Well, all of it. Its not properly been surveyed or anything, but our family has "always" used that valley to graze our 100 sheep. But then it turns out that the family was "granted" the land by the Jordanians in 1956 to family members who don't exist or can't be located in any records of the time. And it turns out that some of it was cultivated, but most of it is "dead land" which has never been cultivated or used. And then it turns out that the Arab family moved onto the tract of land in 1934, immigrating from Lebanon, the same year that the Jewish family down the block did, immigrating from Europe. But then the Amona Jewish families claim to have purchased the land, but the documents are forged.

Its a freaking mess! How do you decide what is fair here?

Simple divide it down the middle and say this is your half, do with it as you will. Issue new land title that is lodged on a server in the UN building and let the fighting stop

 

[Phoenall]

The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the native inhabitants. There were hardly any Jews in Palestine before the Zionist invasion. The ancestors of the Muslim and Christian Palestinians practiced Judaism, Christianity and Roman religions prior to most of them converting to Islam. None immigrated to Palestine from Syria, Jordan or Syria. That's Zionist propaganda.

Fact:

AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF

PALESTINE,

during the period
1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.


AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF
PALESTINE.
​

I.--THE CONDITION OF PALESTINE AFTER THE WAR.

"There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ.* (*See Sir George Adam Smith "Historical Geography of the Holy Land", Chap. 20.) Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine."

Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations/Balfour Declaration text (30 July 1921)

Pre mandate report that was written by a left wing loon who could not tell the difference between arabs and Jews

 

[Shusha]

Personally, for the 50,000 Arab Palestinians living in little villages in Area C which are not overspills from Area B, I think Israel should just go ask them -- how much of this do you think is your private property? Then give them two options: 1. Become an Israeli citizen, and this land is yours or 2. Take this exceedingly generous amount of money and this lovely new property on the edge of Area B, which we will cede to Palestine when it becomes a State.

As far as I'm concerned, Israel needs to stop fooling around and start taking the land it intends to take and withdrawing from the land it does not.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Personally, for the 50,000 Arab Palestinians living in little villages in Area C which are not overspills from Area B, I think Israel should just go ask them -- how much of this do you think is your private property? Then give them two options: 1. Become an Israeli citizen, and this land is yours or 2. Take this exceedingly generous amount of money and this lovely new property on the edge of Area B, which we will cede to Palestine when it becomes a State.

As far as I'm concerned, Israel needs to stop fooling around and start taking the land it intends to take and withdrawing from the land it does not.

Of course that would be illegal. But then again Israel never gave a rat's ass about any law.