Israelis Debate Mandatory Arab Participation in National Service

[Lipush]

Since when is Uri Avnery somehow more qualified than Lipush or any other Israeli to know how Arab Muslim or Christian *citizens* of Israel feel?

He's a leftist.

Was in the Knesset.

So obviously he knows "better"

 

[Lipush]

National service is supposed to be un-political unviolent service, that is why many religious people choose it.

It's volunteering to help sick children, women in delivery, elders in need, and many other things which help civilians.

Mr Zahalke is a hypocrite. He constantly whines about how bad we are to the Arabs, and how we incriminate them, but he is the same one to tell the Arabs not to take any part in community, forces them to stand out instead of blending in.

So he's the last one to speak

I just realized I responded without reading this post Lipush.

Is National Service different than military?

Are the ultra religious and Arabs both exempt from having to do it?

I was thinking it was all the same - clearly it isn't ...

National service is not military.

That's the whole idea

I used to have two friends who defined themselves as pacifists, they didn't believe they can fit in the military system because they didn't believe in wars and weapon usage.

They went through many committees and after that they were given the 'okay' to go on National Service.

One of them was sent to a religious school as an English teacher for "under risk" children.

National service is for young men and women that don't go to the IDF, for whatever reason.

It's VERY difficult as a normal youth to get there, because if you're an Israeli-Jew, normally people expect you to serve in the ARMY.

But if you're from community that in general doesn't serve (like Arabs and religious-Jews), the state calls you and pushes you to tend to national service, because that's the age were youth is expected to serve the state.

That's just our lifestyle.

Ultra-orthodox don't do that ENOUGH, but some do. religious-Zionists are VERY known for their huge part in the National-Service system, proudly so.

They do a wonderful job

 

[Lipush]

Israeli lawmakers are continuing to debate the pros and cons of mandatory participation and integration of Israeli Arabs into the National Service program.

Israeli Arab Knesset Member Jamal Zahalka (Balad party) for years has attended foreign Arab functions and on occasion represented the Palestinian Authority rather than Israel, whose taxpayers support his salary and whose government he serves. Zahalka recently called on his constituency to oppose any plan to legislate Israeli Arab integration into national service.

Deputy Transportation Minister and MK Tzipi Hotovely (Likud), however, condemned Zahalka for his attitude, saying, “For years Israeli Arabs have been benefitting from state health support, education and social security without contributing to share the burden.

“The time has come for them to realize there will be no more taking advantage of the citizens of Israel without participating in national responsibilities.”

The issue is one that taps more than just the matter of “sharing the burden,” however. Israeli Arab legislators such as Zahalka have come under increasingly tight scrutiny in recent years as they escalate aggressive rhetoric against the nation in whose parliament they serve. A number have traveled outside the country to hostile enemy nations, in fact, and met with Arab leaders and terrorists committed to the destruction of the State of Israel.

Israelis Debate Arabs in National Service - Defense/Security - News - Israel National News

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For someone who always calls Israel "nation of racists", Zahalka has some nerve. How are Israelis supposed to treat you as equals if you don't bother to carry everydaylife burdens such as national service?

You want equal rights? share equal duties.

Why are you Mr. Zahalka, so desperate to make the people you say you speak for- parasites- on our society?

This reminded me of an article I read the other day..........

Druze celebrate 40 years of IDF combat service
ISRAELI FRONTLINE: Druze celebrate 40 years of IDF combat service

The Israeli Druze are AWESOME!

I remember I went with my families friends up north. They lived in Haifa and on friday noon they say "Feel like going on a road trip?"

They take us to a Druze village, Maybe it was Daliat Al-Carmel? not sure. Anyway, we enter this huge house, on the garden there is a huge open table in the Garden, this old grandpa blessed us with a smile and "Assalamu-Aleikum!", the table is filled with salads and Humus and pittas and chicken and beef, and while we're eating, we see the man's wife getting out of the house we massive amount of IDF uniforms for laundry, all smiling, says "the kids need clean uniform, can't have them go on the mission stinky!"

Felt like giving her a hug!

Gotta love 'em!

 

[Lipush]

Israeli lawmakers are continuing to debate the pros and cons of mandatory participation and integration of Israeli Arabs into the National Service program.

Israeli Arab Knesset Member Jamal Zahalka (Balad party) for years has attended foreign Arab functions and on occasion represented the Palestinian Authority rather than Israel, whose taxpayers support his salary and whose government he serves. Zahalka recently called on his constituency to oppose any plan to legislate Israeli Arab integration into national service.

Deputy Transportation Minister and MK Tzipi Hotovely (Likud), however, condemned Zahalka for his attitude, saying, “For years Israeli Arabs have been benefitting from state health support, education and social security without contributing to share the burden.

“The time has come for them to realize there will be no more taking advantage of the citizens of Israel without participating in national responsibilities.”

The issue is one that taps more than just the matter of “sharing the burden,” however. Israeli Arab legislators such as Zahalka have come under increasingly tight scrutiny in recent years as they escalate aggressive rhetoric against the nation in whose parliament they serve. A number have traveled outside the country to hostile enemy nations, in fact, and met with Arab leaders and terrorists committed to the destruction of the State of Israel.

Israelis Debate Arabs in National Service - Defense/Security - News - Israel National News

-----------

For someone who always calls Israel "nation of racists", Zahalka has some nerve. How are Israelis supposed to treat you as equals if you don't bother to carry everydaylife burdens such as national service?

You want equal rights? share equal duties.

Why are you Mr. Zahalka, so desperate to make the people you say you speak for- parasites- on our society?

There's a bit that's left unsaid here and that is that if you don't participate in national service many higher level jobs and promotional opportunities are closed to you.

So they are NOT treated as equals are they?

Will this apply to the religious orthodox who also are exempt but take full advantage of state health support, education and social security?

Personally - I think it should be a requirement across the board.

There is preference for Jobs to those who serve in the army or do military service.

That is because people don't want to encourage the phenomenone of not serving the state.

Hell, I was terrified of holding a rifle when I first got drafted. But I didn't do it because it was fun, but because it was a duty (and for me, an honor) to serve.

If people don't do THAT, at least they can serve needed communities for two years, as part of those simple duties.

It really is not that complicated.

 

[Lipush]

National service is supposed to be un-political unviolent service, that is why many religious people choose it.

It's volunteering to help sick children, women in delivery, elders in need, and many other things which help civilians.

Mr Zahalke is a hypocrite. He constantly whines about how bad we are to the Arabs, and how we incriminate them, but he is the same one to tell the Arabs not to take any part in community, forces them to stand out instead of blending in.

So he's the last one to speak

I just realized I responded without reading this post Lipush.

Is National Service different than military?

Are the ultra religious and Arabs both exempt from having to do it?

I was thinking it was all the same - clearly it isn't ...

It's been a long time since I lived in Israel and Lipush knows more than me. I think the ultra-religious are exempt, for the time being, though that might change very soon. Some modern-Orthodox women do national service instead of the army. Arabs, aside from the Druze, are pretty much exempt. Is it still that way Lipush?

The Ultra-orthodox are still not open-up to it enough, I believe.

Though thankfully, and VERY slowly, it begins to change.

Problem is, that many do want to serve in one of the two options, but sometimes the Rabbis stop them.

But THAT also begins to change.

Few months ago a young soldier was killed when protecting civilians near the Gaza boarder. He was an orthodox who left his Yeshiva to go serve in the IDF, he says it is what HaShem expects of the people, even more than Torah studies, and that is protecting the people.

He was considered a hero among the religious-Zionist community because of the fact that he was a Hareidi.

 

[Coyote]

et al,

I think it is important that the Israelis debate this. Especially relative to public and national service of Arabs (Islamic) in the Intelligence, Security, and Military Services (ISMSs).

It is not a matter of discrimination. I've seen this elsewhere. The dilemma of placing "Brand X" up against their own kind. Remember the "Chieu Hoi" Program? We should also remember MAJ Nidal Malik Hasan (US Army - and the Texas Incident) and SGT Hasan Karim Akbar (US Army - Camp Pennsylvania, Kuwait).

It is the risk you take by attempting to assimilate "Brand X" into a life or death situation that requires absolute loyalty. The Israelis must make a choice. Both Hasan and Akbar were in the "All Volunteer Army" (not mandatory service).

The Israelis have to be very careful.

I think the Arabs have the better end of the deal.

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't think they do - most higher level jobs require having served. Those that haven't, have a ceiling.

 

[Coyote]

National service is supposed to be un-political unviolent service, that is why many religious people choose it.

It's volunteering to help sick children, women in delivery, elders in need, and many other things which help civilians.

Mr Zahalke is a hypocrite. He constantly whines about how bad we are to the Arabs, and how we incriminate them, but he is the same one to tell the Arabs not to take any part in community, forces them to stand out instead of blending in.

So he's the last one to speak

I just realized I responded without reading this post Lipush.

Is National Service different than military?

Are the ultra religious and Arabs both exempt from having to do it?

I was thinking it was all the same - clearly it isn't ...

National service is not military.

That's the whole idea

I used to have two friends who defined themselves as pacifists, they didn't believe they can fit in the military system because they didn't believe in wars and weapon usage.

They went through many committees and after that they were given the 'okay' to go on National Service.

One of them was sent to a religious school as an English teacher for "under risk" children.

National service is for young men and women that don't go to the IDF, for whatever reason.

It's VERY difficult as a normal youth to get there, because if you're an Israeli-Jew, normally people expect you to serve in the ARMY.

But if you're from community that in general doesn't serve (like Arabs and religious-Jews), the state calls you and pushes you to tend to national service, because that's the age were youth is expected to serve the state.

That's just our lifestyle.

Ultra-orthodox don't do that ENOUGH, but some do. religious-Zionists are VERY known for their huge part in the National-Service system, proudly so.

They do a wonderful job

Thanks Lipush - that clarifies it a great deal

 

[Lipush]

Anytime

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I just realized I responded without reading this post Lipush.

Is National Service different than military?

Are the ultra religious and Arabs both exempt from having to do it?

I was thinking it was all the same - clearly it isn't ...

National service is not military.

That's the whole idea

I used to have two friends who defined themselves as pacifists, they didn't believe they can fit in the military system because they didn't believe in wars and weapon usage.

They went through many committees and after that they were given the 'okay' to go on National Service.

One of them was sent to a religious school as an English teacher for "under risk" children.

National service is for young men and women that don't go to the IDF, for whatever reason.

It's VERY difficult as a normal youth to get there, because if you're an Israeli-Jew, normally people expect you to serve in the ARMY.

But if you're from community that in general doesn't serve (like Arabs and religious-Jews), the state calls you and pushes you to tend to national service, because that's the age were youth is expected to serve the state.

That's just our lifestyle.

Ultra-orthodox don't do that ENOUGH, but some do. religious-Zionists are VERY known for their huge part in the National-Service system, proudly so.

They do a wonderful job

Thanks Lipush - that clarifies it a great deal

America should also have 2 years of national service for 2 years after high-school!

 

[José]

Originally posted by MHunterB
Since when is Uri Avnery somehow more qualified than Lipush or any other Israeli to know how Arab Muslim or Christian *citizens* of Israel feel?

I'd say Lipush and Avnery are (surprisingly) in perfect agreement as far as israeli Arabs are concerned.

Lipush
AT LEAST they can stop with the WHINING!

They "whine" because, they have no emotional attachment to a state that considers them a nuissance, a "demographic threat", a "tolerated resident" as Avnery put it.

They "whine" because they have no allegiance to a country where political leaders are always openly, unashamedly debating different ways to get rid of them or, at least, "minimize" their numbers.

The fact that israeli arabs are indeed Israel's fifth column is so obvious that even "miracles" happen:

The israeli left (Avnery) and right (Lipush) agreeing on something.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Lipush
Uri Avnery is a far-left activist who used to serve in the Knesset.

tsk, tsk, tsk...

A pygmy badmouthing a man whose moral stature cannot even be measured.

Far-left in Israel: anyone who has managed to keep his moral bearings.

Avnery is in the good company of Gandhi, Luther King, Mandela and so many others who were also considered extremists, radicals...

100 hundred years from now, not one but dozens of statues will be erected throughout Palestine honoring the life and memory of this moral giant.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Coyote
Personally - I think it should be a requirement across the board.

You said "many" palestinians serve in the IDF...

With all the economic incentives associated with military service only 120 palestinians volunteer every year. That's your "many"... 120!!

Serving the army is regarded by the arab community as treason, as one of the most shameful acts a palestinian can engage. Most of them, leave as soon as they complete the service and treat this as a secret for the rest of their lives, speaking to the press only anonymously.

You need to spend some time in Israel visiting arab families, talking to arabs on the streets etc...

The western media presented to you a misleading picture of israeli arabs and you swallowed hook, line and sinker.

To westerners like you, arabs in Israel are portrayed as a docile community who love their country, are loyal citizens of the state and have only "minor grievances", a "small resentment" towards the jewish state.

After spending a couple of weeks in Israel talking to israeli arabs, after witnessing first hand the level of hostility they have towards the "jewish character of the state" you would return to America thinking:

"I was duped by the western press my whole life! I can hardly believe I was actually supporting universal military conscription in that country until recently!!"

Then you would discover what Israel's political leaders know since the founding of the state:

It's total insanity to put the security of the state in the hands of the enemies of the state. Arab concripts would be lousy soldiers at best and mass murderers at worst. Not to mention the fact that the whole arab community would erupt in flames.

 

[Coyote]

Originally posted by Coyote
Personally - I think it should be a requirement across the board.

You said "many" palestinians serve in the IDF...

With all the economic incentives associated with military service only 120 palestinians volunteer every year. That's your "many"... 120!!

What I said was "Many already do, particularly among the Druze." - talking about Arab citizens of Israel. But outside of the Druze, I could well be wrong - thanks for the clarification

Serving the army is regarded by the arab community as treason, as one of the most shameful acts a palestinian can engage. Most of them, leave as soon as they complete the service and treat this as a secret for the rest of their lives, speaking to the press only anonymously.

You need to spend some time in Israel visiting arab families, talking to arabs on the streets etc...

I probably do, again thanks for the clarification - I was making unwarrented assumptions

The western media presented to you a misleading picture of israeli arabs and you swallowed hook, line and sinker.

To westerners like you, arabs in Israel are portrayed as a docile community who love their country, are loyal citizens of the state and have only "minor grievances", a "small resentment" towards the jewish state.

The media I listen to does not portray them as such at all.

You are the one making unwarrented assumptions here.

After spending a couple of weeks in Israel talking to israeli arabs, after witnessing first hand the level of hostility they have towards the "jewish character of the state" you would return to America thinking:

"I was duped by the western press my whole life! I can hardly believe I was actually supporting universal military conscription in that country until recently!!"

Then you would discover what Israel's political leaders know since the founding of the state:

It's total insanity to put the security of the state in the hands of the enemies of the state. Arab concripts would be lousy soldiers at best and mass murderers at worst. Not to mention the fact that the whole arab community would erupt in flames.

Point taken - and thanks

 

[Lipush]

It is all nice and all, but those who do not serve and take the burden like others, cannot come and complain later about "not being treated as equals".

For clarification, my Army officer was an Arab. She not only disagreed with Jose's views of "treason". but she used to go with the uniform in such pride you wouldn't have believed.

So again, please stop use all sort of high-demagogy to paint this as black-white thing, Jose.

You can't fool me, I'm an Israeli, lived here all my life.

you cannot pull this kind of crap over me.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Originally posted by Coyote
Personally - I think it should be a requirement across the board.

You said "many" palestinians serve in the IDF...

With all the economic incentives associated with military service only 120 palestinians volunteer every year. That's your "many"... 120!!

What I said was "Many already do, particularly among the Druze." - talking about Arab citizens of Israel. But outside of the Druze, I could well be wrong - thanks for the clarification



I probably do, again thanks for the clarification - I was making unwarrented assumptions

The western media presented to you a misleading picture of israeli arabs and you swallowed hook, line and sinker.

To westerners like you, arabs in Israel are portrayed as a docile community who love their country, are loyal citizens of the state and have only "minor grievances", a "small resentment" towards the jewish state.

The media I listen to does not portray them as such at all.

You are the one making unwarrented assumptions here.

After spending a couple of weeks in Israel talking to israeli arabs, after witnessing first hand the level of hostility they have towards the "jewish character of the state" you would return to America thinking:

"I was duped by the western press my whole life! I can hardly believe I was actually supporting universal military conscription in that country until recently!!"

Then you would discover what Israel's political leaders know since the founding of the state:

It's total insanity to put the security of the state in the hands of the enemies of the state. Arab concripts would be lousy soldiers at best and mass murderers at worst. Not to mention the fact that the whole arab community would erupt in flames.

Point taken - and thanks

You're very gracious, Coyote. If I were you, I would've told Jose to take it down a notch. Glad you're the moderator.

 

[Lipush]

+1

 

[RoccoR]

Lipush, et al,

This, I think, is why it is very necessary (as I said in Posting #18) that the Israeli have a very frank and open debate on the question.

It is all nice and all, but those who do not serve and take the burden like others, cannot come and complain later about "not being treated as equals".
... truncated ...
For clarification, my Army officer was an Arab. She not only disagreed with Jose's views of "treason". but she used to go with the uniform in such pride you wouldn't have believed.

(PREFACE)

I live in Ohio. We have a lot of Amish. You don't see them in Public or Military Service. But we protect them all the same. A more hard working, honest group of people will you ever meet. We would not dare treat them in an unequal fashion. We try to take extra care that they are not preyed upon in any fashion.

On the other hand, there are many jobs that request a copy of a DD-214 ("Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty"). With an honorable discharge, you get extra points on a civil service exam, you can get a hiring preference, you can get something towards retirement in some cases. You are treated differently.

There are those that have not served. Out of the last dozen Presidents, only two have not worn the uniform (Barack Obama and Bill Clinton), they are generally not treated different (however, neither can join the VFW). We don't shun those that have not served; but there is something different about them.

(COMMENT)

But the case of the Arab in the Middle East is different. And that is something that the Israeli is going to have to come to grips with very soon. It is something only the Israeli is going to be able to sort though.

Whether it is public service or military service, it is something that must be carefully considered. I wish you all the best of luck in sorting it out and doing the right thing.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Lipush]

Originally posted by Lipush
Uri Avnery is a far-left activist who used to serve in the Knesset.

tsk, tsk, tsk...

A pygmy badmouthing a man whose moral stature cannot even be measured.

Far-left in Israel: anyone who has managed to keep his moral bearings.

Avnery is in the good company of Gandhi, Luther King, Mandela and so many others who were also considered extremists, radicals...

100 hundred years from now, not one but dozens of statues will be erected throughout Palestine honoring the life and memory of this moral giant.

"Far-left in Israel: anyone who has managed to keep his moral bearings."

No.

Who is a far-lestist Israeli?

1. A guy who is horrified when hearing of a terror attack, but is suddenly very calm when hearing the victims were "settlers".

2. Is the guy who calls the hilltop youth "land thieves" from the villa which used to belong to the Muchtar of Jaffa in the early 90's.

3. Is the guy who hates the government for "abandoning" and "abusing" the needed ones, but closes his vehicle's window to a starved begger.

4. Is the guy who fills his column in Ma'ariv with hatred to settlers and then being proud of pluralism.

5. Is the guy who says "They chose to live there" when hearing about the murder of 2 parents and 3 of their children.

6. Is the guy who gets pissed when "right-wingers" bring up the Holocaust as an "excuse" to occupy "Palestine" but at the same breath calls the Israeli-soldiers "YudeNazis"

7.Is the guy who's 1% of the people but 99% of the media

8. Is the guy who fills lottery ticket in addiction but calls settlers "Messianic fools".

9. Is the guy who makes a face when seeing demonstrations of settlers but joins the protests of Palestinians, no questions asked.

10. Is the guy who calls Sharon "murderer" and Arafat "a fighter for peace".

11. is the guy who sees Palestinians teaching their children to hate and kill Jews, and believes STILL that they want peace.

12. Is the guy who tells trash about Israel and calls to boycott it, but still takes salary and payment from the official's state center of science.

13. Is the guy who calls non stop for democratic state first, but is highly rejecting referendum ideas.

14. Is the guy who believes that "He who rises up to kill you, rise earlier and kill him first" is incitement

15. is a guy who visits a Palestinian "who's like my brother" in Usfi'ya and then acts all surprised when his car gets stolen.

I rest my case.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Lipush
AT LEAST they can stop with the WHINING!

Originally posted by (believe it or not) Lipush
It is all nice and all, but those who do not serve and take the burden like others, cannot come and complain later about "not being treated as equals".

For clarification, my Army officer was an Arab. She not only disagreed with Jose's views of
"treason". but she used to go with the uniform in such pride you wouldn't have believed.

So again, please stop use all sort of high-demagogy to paint this as black-white thing, Jose.

You can't fool me, I'm an Israeli, lived here all my life.

you cannot pull this kind of crap over me.

OK, so let me see if I understand:

Yesterday Israel's arab population "just couldn't stop whinning about Israel".

Today they are loyal members of the IDF.

What are they gonna be tomorrow? Mossad agents?

Make up your mind, young lady. You're beggining to contradict yourself.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Lipush
For clarification, my Army officer was an Arab. She not only disagreed with Jose's views of
"treason". but she used to go with the uniform in such pride you wouldn't have believed.

If she was a Druze/Bedouin you're being just plain dishonest because we all know Druze/Bedouin doesn't count as arabs as far as loyalty to Israel is concerned.

If she was a palestinian arab you're still being dishonest because you know very well that palestinian israelis massively reject the jewish character of Israel and don't have any identification with the state.