It's a False Doctrine That People Go To Heaven Immediately After Death

[Avatar4321]

Really? Id love to see where you find those stats.

Survey: Majority of Evangelical Leaders Believe in Rapture; Imminent Return of Jesus

[MENTION=854]Avatar4321[/MENTION]

Evangelicalism is a world-wide Protestant movement maintaining that the essence of the Christian Gospel consists in the doctrine of salvation by faith in Christ's atonement.[1] The movement gained great momentum in the 18th and 19th centuries with the emergence of Methodism and the Great Awakenings in the British Isles and North America. Pietism, Nicolaus Zinzendorf and the Moravian Church, Presbyterianism and Puritanism have influenced Evangelicalism.

Influential leaders in the English-speaking world have included John Wesley, George Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards. The United States has the largest concentration of Evangelicals by country, with roughly a quarter of the world's Evangelicals (over 90 million). Many Evangelicals now live outside the English-speaking world and over 42 million live in Brazil alone.[2] The movement continues to draw adherents globally in the 21st century, especially in the developing world.

Evangelicalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

90 million * .60 percent equals 54 million.

You can do the math.

Thank you. It's nice to discuss things with someone who just answers questions instead of deflects them

 

[Chuckt]

Survey: Majority of Evangelical Leaders Believe in Rapture; Imminent Return of Jesus

[MENTION=854]Avatar4321[/MENTION]

Influential leaders in the English-speaking world have included John Wesley, George Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards. The United States has the largest concentration of Evangelicals by country, with roughly a quarter of the world's Evangelicals (over 90 million). Many Evangelicals now live outside the English-speaking world and over 42 million live in Brazil alone.[2] The movement continues to draw adherents globally in the 21st century, especially in the developing world.

Evangelicalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

90 million * .60 percent equals 54 million.

You can do the math.

Thank you. It's nice to discuss things with someone who just answers questions instead of deflects them

Thank you.

I don't want to be misleading in the figure. 61 percent of Evangelical leaders believe the rapture so they probably teach it to their congregations. What percentage believe in their churches? Even if 2% believe, that is over a million. I don't know what the percentage is but it could be 40% of 54 million which would be twenty one million six hundred thousand. 80% would be fourty three million two hundred thousand. It is still a huge number.

 

[PostmodernProph]

does coming here and correcting people's errors count as "works"?.......

Only if you correct your own as well.

"works" for me......

 

[PostmodernProph]

I neither added to it or took away from it.

I seem to recall something about what people who came back from hell with him said.......was that multiplication instead of addition?.....

 

[Vox]

Millions of Christians believe in the rapture. 6 out of 10 Christian pastors believe in the rapture. They hold to a different opinion.

even more people believe in aliens and bigfoot. so?

Prove it.
Christians like myself are looking for truth. People who believe in bigfoot aren't necessarily looking for truth.

it is you who have to prove your assumption - you made it - you prove it first. Where is the proof of your" 60% of Christians believe in rapture", when it is not even 60% of Protestants who believe in it?

more than one billion of Catholics and about 300 million of Orthodox do not believe in any rapture - the vast majority of them never even heard about it

and the prevailing majority of protestant churches do not either.

so if you want to be at least approximately correct - you can state "60% of Evangelical Christians beleive in rupture" - which is a miniscule amount of people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members

 

[Chuckt]

even more people believe in aliens and bigfoot. so?

Prove it.
Christians like myself are looking for truth. People who believe in bigfoot aren't necessarily looking for truth.

it is you who have to prove your assumption - you made it - you prove it first. Where is the proof of your" 60% of Christians believe in rapture", when it is not even 60% of Protestants who believe in it?

more than one billion of Catholics and about 300 million of Orthodox do not believe in any rapture - the vast majority of them never even heard about it

and the prevailing majority of protestant churches do not either.

so if you want to be at least approximately correct - you can state "60% of Evangelical Christians beleive in rupture" - which is a miniscule amount of people

List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is this thing called revelation. If you take an unbiblical stance, you aren't open to God's light.

Scholars reconstructing the popular history of the first years of the 21st
century will have to grapple with the phenomenon of "Left Behind," and in an
age of terror and tumult, they may find, these books' Biblical literalism
offered certitude to millions of Americans amid the chaos of their time,
reports Gates. According to the most recent Newsweek poll, 92 percent of
Americans believe in God, 74 percent believe in Satan and 75 percent believe
there is a Heaven where people who have led good lives are eternally rewarded.
A majority (55%) believe in "the Rapture," that before the world ends the
religiously faithful will be saved and taken to Heaven; and more than a third
(36%) say the Bible's book of Revelation is a "true prophesy" that predicts
the end of the world as it will happen (47% say it's a metaphorical account).

NEWSWEEK COVER: 'The New Prophets of Revelation' -- re> NEW YORK, May 16 /PRNewswire/ --

It is a large number of people.
When you listen to the Pope, it isn't a large number of people you are listening to. You are listening to a man and not reading the Bible for yourself to hear from God Himself.
I prefer to read the Bible and think for myself as 55% of Americans have done and believe in the rapture from reading it in the Bible.

 

[Vox]

Vox, Since neither of us heard Christ's voice isn't anything you read in the Bible secondary? Aren't you taking someone's word for what they have heard and seen?
Mark wasn't there. Luke wasn't there. So, do you believe what Mary told Luke about Christ's birth? It's second hand info. and wouldn't even hold up in court.

But Matthew was there, and so was John. If you don't believe them, do you even bother with the rest of the book?

I quoted Matthew.
Who WAS there.

The words of Our Lord are quite clear and simple - there is not going to be any other Judgements but Final Judgement and He is explaining what is He going to base His Final Judgement of YOU and ME upon.

No Millennial Kingdoms, no catchings in the air, no white thrones and other imaginary attributes - ONE Judgement when He comes again.

It is clear and simple - and it is enough not only for me but for 2 billion of other people who do not beleive in any raptures and additional comings.

54 millions of Evangelicals ( not even all of them) vs 2 billion of other Christians is pretty impressive diference.

 

[Vox]

It is a large number of people.
When you listen to the Pope, it isn't a large number of people you are listening to. You are listening to a man and not reading the Bible for yourself to hear from God Himself.
I prefer to read the Bible and think for myself as 55% of Americans have done and believe in the rapture from reading it in the Bible.

majority of WHOM? of one denomination of Protestant Churches - Evangelicals?

54 millions vs 2 BILLION?

that's not a majority.

the majority did not even ever heard of those fantasies of the last 150 years.

and could not care less about those fairy tales invented and which contradict DIRECTLY with the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will side with Him, not with 54 millions.

 

[Vox]

There is this thing called revelation. If you take an unbiblical stance, you aren't open to God's light.

.

In no way Revelation Chapter 20 supersedes the word of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

It looks like you are actually involved in idolatry - as you are obsessed with one Chapter of the work of the Apostle and venerate it more than the words of Jesus Christ, which in your interpretation directly contradict the words of the Lord.

It is not that John is wrong - no, it is YOU and the likes who INTERPRET John's work in the way you do that it is contradictory to the outline given by Our Lord to us, who are wrong.

John described the events of the First Century AD - nothing more.

Chapter 20 has happened long time before.

Final Judgement is yet to hapen.

That is it.

Clear and simple.

 

[PostmodernProph]

how can one say a majority of Christians believe in "The Rapture" when there are so many different opinions as to what it is?.....or even if it is/was/will be.......

if I believe that at the time of the second coming the believers will rise up to meet the Christ and he immediately begins the judgment, am I a "rapture believer"?.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

There is this thing called revelation. If you take an unbiblical stance, you aren't open to God's light.

yet, it is possible to believe the Bible but not share the way you interpret it......

 

[hobelim]

In no way Revelation Chapter 20 supersedes the word of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

It looks like you are actually involved in idolatry - as you are obsessed with one Chapter of the work of the Apostle and venerate it more than the words of Jesus Christ, which in your interpretation directly contradict the words of the Lord.

It is not that John is wrong - no, it is YOU and the likes who INTERPRET John's work in the way you do that it is contradictory to the outline given by Our Lord to us, who are wrong.

John described the events of the First Century AD - nothing more.

Chapter 20 has happened long time before.

Final Judgement is yet to hapen.

That is it.

Clear and simple.

Gods' judgments have been openly revealed from the beginning, even if it has escaped notice.


Perhaps the final judgment is just upon the death of the body, whenever it happens, when the opportunity to rise to life by conforming to those mentioned judgments has forever passed and will always remain 'about to happen' for as long as any reprobate soul has a physical body.. and who else would be all bent out of shape about the possibility?

as Jesus said, those who hear his words and act on them will never come under condemnation."Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me already has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

 

[Vox]

how can one say a majority of Christians believe in "The Rapture" when there are so many different opinions as to what it is?.....or even if it is/was/will be.......

if I believe that at the time of the second coming the believers will rise up to meet the Christ and he immediately begins the judgment, am I a "rapture believer"?.....

I have never ever heard about the rapture until the last year when I encountered the word on one of th message boards.

The more movies Hollywood makes about "left behind" the more people who "believe" in it will appear.

Do I need to remind how many Americans believe in zombies? It is a popular culture impact.

However, 47% of Americans do consider Revelation to be symbolical ( as it is) work vs about a third which take it as a literal prediction of the future.

Traditional Christianity is partially preterist and does not consider Revelation, especially Chapter 20 to be the core essence of Christianity.
Rupturists seem to invent a totally new religion - Rapturism.
Fine with me, but it has nothing to do with what Jesus Christ taught us.

 

[Vox]

In no way Revelation Chapter 20 supersedes the word of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

It looks like you are actually involved in idolatry - as you are obsessed with one Chapter of the work of the Apostle and venerate it more than the words of Jesus Christ, which in your interpretation directly contradict the words of the Lord.

It is not that John is wrong - no, it is YOU and the likes who INTERPRET John's work in the way you do that it is contradictory to the outline given by Our Lord to us, who are wrong.

John described the events of the First Century AD - nothing more.

Chapter 20 has happened long time before.

Final Judgement is yet to hapen.

That is it.

Clear and simple.

Gods' judgments have been openly revealed from the beginning, even if it has escaped notice.


Perhaps the final judgment is just upon the death of the body, whenever it happens, when the opportunity to rise to life by conforming to those mentioned judgments has forever passed and will always remain 'about to happen' for as long as any reprobate soul has a physical body.. and who else would be all bent out of shape about the possibility?

as Jesus said, those who hear his words and act on them will never come under condemnation."Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me already has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

what happens after we die is considered in a different manner according to the branch of the Christianity you belong. Traditional Churches - Catholic and Orthodox teach that after death every soul undergoes the Particular Judgement of this individual soul and what happens to the soul depends on that verdict.

The Final Judgement is going to be of all those still alive at the time and those who have died - with those who have already been cleared of their sins before undergoing mostly a repeated symbolical Judgement and those who did not yet - the real one.

This outline is pretty simple and clear. All the modern fantasies of intermediate comings, Millennial Kingdoms and pratial Judgements simply complicate this very straightforward line of events. Why all the confusion for the last 150+ years when for 1800+ Christians were following the schem outlined for us by not less than Our Lord Himself.

 

[Chuckt]

In no way Revelation Chapter 20 supersedes the word of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

It looks like you are actually involved in idolatry - as you are obsessed with one Chapter of the work of the Apostle and venerate it more than the words of Jesus Christ, which in your interpretation directly contradict the words of the Lord.

It is not that John is wrong - no, it is YOU and the likes who INTERPRET John's work in the way you do that it is contradictory to the outline given by Our Lord to us, who are wrong.

John described the events of the First Century AD - nothing more.

Chapter 20 has happened long time before.

Final Judgement is yet to hapen.

That is it.

Clear and simple.

Gods' judgments have been openly revealed from the beginning, even if it has escaped notice.


Perhaps the final judgment is just upon the death of the body, whenever it happens, when the opportunity to rise to life by conforming to those mentioned judgments has forever passed and will always remain 'about to happen' for as long as any reprobate soul has a physical body.. and who else would be all bent out of shape about the possibility?

as Jesus said, those who hear his words and act on them will never come under condemnation."Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me already has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

what happens after we die is considered in a different manner according to the branch of the Christianity you belong. Traditional Churches - Catholic and Orthodox teach that after death every soul undergoes the Particular Judgement of this individual soul and what happens to the soul depends on that verdict.

The Final Judgement is going to be of all those still alive at the time and those who have died - with those who have already been cleared of their sins before undergoing mostly a repeated symbolical Judgement and those who did not yet - the real one.

This outline is pretty simple and clear. All the modern fantasies of intermediate comings, Millennial Kingdoms and pratial Judgements simply complicate this very straightforward line of events. Why all the confusion for the last 150+ years when for 1800+ Christians were following the schem outlined for us by not less than Our Lord Himself.

Vox,

If there is a group or power structure somewhere, there is always someone wanting to be up front or in control. People like to be in front of other people. I think of Diotrephes.

3 John 1:9 ¶ I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

I knew a Catholic who basically jumped on the argument that it was Martin Luther that was the wolf but wolves started way back in Jesus' day:

Matthew 10:16 ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

I read the Bible. I look up words in the Greek and Hebrew. I look for context. The last resort is reading commentaries for my meaning but I have listened to two dozen radio pastors and some of them taught me the Bible verse by verse and I easily put in 20 hours a week. When I drive home, I can easily listen to two programs of teaching. I've done this for many years.

For me it is not a man. For me it is the Bible. I get my teaching from the Bible and that is what I follow. The rapture is in the Bible.

 

[Vox]

Gods' judgments have been openly revealed from the beginning, even if it has escaped notice.


Perhaps the final judgment is just upon the death of the body, whenever it happens, when the opportunity to rise to life by conforming to those mentioned judgments has forever passed and will always remain 'about to happen' for as long as any reprobate soul has a physical body.. and who else would be all bent out of shape about the possibility?

as Jesus said, those who hear his words and act on them will never come under condemnation."Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me already has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

what happens after we die is considered in a different manner according to the branch of the Christianity you belong. Traditional Churches - Catholic and Orthodox teach that after death every soul undergoes the Particular Judgement of this individual soul and what happens to the soul depends on that verdict.

The Final Judgement is going to be of all those still alive at the time and those who have died - with those who have already been cleared of their sins before undergoing mostly a repeated symbolical Judgement and those who did not yet - the real one.

This outline is pretty simple and clear. All the modern fantasies of intermediate comings, Millennial Kingdoms and pratial Judgements simply complicate this very straightforward line of events. Why all the confusion for the last 150+ years when for 1800+ Christians were following the schem outlined for us by not less than Our Lord Himself.

Vox,

If there is a group or power structure somewhere, there is always someone wanting to be up front or in control. People like to be in front of other people. I think of Diotrephes.

3 John 1:9 ¶ I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

I knew a Catholic who basically jumped on the argument that it was Martin Luther that was the wolf but wolves started way back in Jesus' day:

Matthew 10:16 ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

I read the Bible. I look up words in the Greek and Hebrew. I look for context. The last resort is reading commentaries for my meaning but I have listened to two dozen radio pastors and some of them taught me the Bible verse by verse and I easily put in 20 hours a week. When I drive home, I can easily listen to two programs of teaching. I've done this for many years.

For me it is not a man. For me it is the Bible. I get my teaching from the Bible and that is what I follow. The rapture is in the Bible.

the rapture worship is an idolatry.

It was not taught by Jesus Christ and had not been known until some inventive Bible reader decided to interpret what he reads in a twisted way.


as I said - fine with me, people have many different strange beliefs. but rapturism is not mainstream Christianity and the problem with it's followers is their substitution of what Jesus Christ actually taught us by a set of catastrophic expectations worshiping in no way connected to the Bible.

 

[Chuckt]

what happens after we die is considered in a different manner according to the branch of the Christianity you belong. Traditional Churches - Catholic and Orthodox teach that after death every soul undergoes the Particular Judgement of this individual soul and what happens to the soul depends on that verdict.

The Final Judgement is going to be of all those still alive at the time and those who have died - with those who have already been cleared of their sins before undergoing mostly a repeated symbolical Judgement and those who did not yet - the real one.

This outline is pretty simple and clear. All the modern fantasies of intermediate comings, Millennial Kingdoms and pratial Judgements simply complicate this very straightforward line of events. Why all the confusion for the last 150+ years when for 1800+ Christians were following the schem outlined for us by not less than Our Lord Himself.

Vox,

If there is a group or power structure somewhere, there is always someone wanting to be up front or in control. People like to be in front of other people. I think of Diotrephes.

3 John 1:9 ¶ I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

I knew a Catholic who basically jumped on the argument that it was Martin Luther that was the wolf but wolves started way back in Jesus' day:

Matthew 10:16 ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

I read the Bible. I look up words in the Greek and Hebrew. I look for context. The last resort is reading commentaries for my meaning but I have listened to two dozen radio pastors and some of them taught me the Bible verse by verse and I easily put in 20 hours a week. When I drive home, I can easily listen to two programs of teaching. I've done this for many years.

For me it is not a man. For me it is the Bible. I get my teaching from the Bible and that is what I follow. The rapture is in the Bible.

the rapture worship is an idolatry.

It was not taught by Jesus Christ and had not been known until some inventive Bible reader decided to interpret what he reads in a twisted way.


as I said - fine with me, people have many different strange beliefs. but rapturism is not mainstream Christianity and the problem with it's followers is their substitution of what Jesus Christ actually taught us by a set of catastrophic expectations worshiping in no way connected to the Bible.

I'm not worshipping the rapture. I'm not sitting here saying, "I hope I get raptured".
I probably don't watch as much as I should.

My philosophy is different. I'm looking at it long term. I bought Christian books so my brethren and offspring don't have to re-invent the wheel. That is why I'm writing Christian Bible studies and articles. I'm writing them so that other people won't have to fight like a first generation Christian.

 

[Mertex]

how can one say a majority of Christians believe in "The Rapture" when there are so many different opinions as to what it is?.....or even if it is/was/will be.......

if I believe that at the time of the second coming the believers will rise up to meet the Christ and he immediately begins the judgment, am I a "rapture believer"?.....

The Second Coming won't be until after the 1000 year reign. The rapture just takes all the Christians (dead or alive) out of the earth and the 7 year tribulation begins. The Second Coming will be at the very end, and Christians (believers) will come down with Jesus.


1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).


Read more: What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Vox you have ignored every question I have asked you.
Matthew disagrees with your opinion that no one has come back from the grave yet.
What do you do with this statement he told us?

Matthew 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And he didn't stop there. He goes on to tell us what they did, where they went, what Christ did and said, and that they all went to Heaven, together.
Unless you're meeting with Christ and getting your information first hand, then when you say "Jesus said", or not, you are relying on what some person is telling you Christ said. And either they are telling us the "gospel truth", or the truth is not in them.

Matthew was there, telling us what he saw and heard. It's either all true or none. If only parts of it are true, how do you know which parts of his testimony are and what parts aren't? The very same person that told you what Jesus said, saw dead people. Walking to town, with Jesus. If he is wrong about that what else is he wrong about?

And if Revelation has already occurred, I have even more questions that there should be answers to. Who was the beast and what mark was he insisting the beheaded saints take, and in what form? Tattoo or chip?
How was he able to be sure he tatted everyone in the world so that no one could buy or sell without the mark?
When did the blood rise up to the bridles of the horses gathered at Meggido,
and the most important question I have is, where is Christ? He returns at the end of Revelation. In fact, Him returning IS the Reveal. It isn't Revelations the book of prophesies, it is the Revelation, the revealing of Christ. His second coming that you refer to. Is that part symbolism, or is He actually coming, and how can you tell the difference between the two?

John even told us the exact location of His foot touching this earth again, and that it would create an earthquake, that would split the Mt. of Olives apart. It's still a mountain.
Where is the Kingdom He has set up from the throne of David?
What was the name written on His thigh?

Which 2 prophets laid dead in the street for 3 1/2 days? Enoch and Elijah, or Moses and Elijah? And how did the world watch them? There were no satellites to broadcast that event to the world wide?
When was the Roman Empire revived? It was still THE empire in 1 AD. And Israel was still under their rule in 1AD. It is specifically noted in the Bible that Israel would not be in the hands of Gentiles when the revealing of Christ takes place.

These are valid questions, and if you are right, there should be valid answers to them, and we should be able to discuss them in the spirit of peacefulness. I'd like to understand why you believe what you do, and I have questions about what you believe. And I hope we can discuss things in the spirit of love for one another, because if you believe with your heart one thing, and I believe in my heart something different, God appoints it righteous to us both. It isn't doctrine that excites Him, it is the faith in our hearts.

Post, you disagree also with Vox. You think Christ raised everyone in Hades. Where do you think they are right now?

 

[Chuckt]

how can one say a majority of Christians believe in "The Rapture" when there are so many different opinions as to what it is?.....or even if it is/was/will be.......

if I believe that at the time of the second coming the believers will rise up to meet the Christ and he immediately begins the judgment, am I a "rapture believer"?.....

The only difference is the timing. Some are pre-trib, others are mid-trib and post-trib.
Some occult teachers teach that the rapture is a cleansing. I'm pre-trib and not post-trib by the way.

I'm not sure when the bema seat of Christ happens.

It is my opinion that unless you teach through the Bible, you will miss a lot of things.