It's a False Doctrine That People Go To Heaven Immediately After Death

[PostmodernProph]

So, Am I a Gnostic for knowing the eyewitness accounts of Christ's resurrection, and the interrogation of those who rose with Him

not at all....but likely yes, for believing that the Gnostic prophets of the 4th Century AD were such.......

 

[PostmodernProph]

does coming here and correcting people's errors count as "works"?.......

 

[Chuckt]

Grace is not merited favor, it is unmerited favor.
So if you are right, let me follow by example. I am assuming you are an adult and have sinned at some point in your life, so tell me what you have accomplished to solidify your seat at God's table. What works are necessary to gain entrance into heaven? I know of none that qualify except Christ's propitiation. And how much work is necessary? A year's worth? 6 years worth? Are you only saved by grace up until the time you accept Christ's gift and then you are responsible for the rest?

What works have you done to compensate for Christ's inability to save you from His cross? What makes your works clean while mine remains filthy? Boast for me about your works so that I too can compensate for Christ's incomplete salvation and save myself..

Really? you don't know that?

so Jesus Christ HIMSELF was wrong when HE explained what works are needed ?

Matthew 25:31-46

English Standard Version (ESV)
The Final Judgment

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So are you saying that all those DEEDS - and He mentions only WORKS, nothing else - are not required for Salvation when Our Lord HIMSELF states THEY ARE !!!!

That's some pretty bold statement on your part ( and others)

Now, I do not consider as you, obviously do, that there can not and should not be a MIXTURE of both Faith and Works. In some cases people might be saved by Faith only - and that is the example of the thief on the cross, although he voiced his Faith to Our Lord - and that was an act of courage and humility ( unlike the other one) and not faith only - as he could have been silent in his thoughts, right? That's a deed, a work - he PROCLAIMED his faith. But this particular example can to some extent be the one for the salvation by faith only - although in no way it means that people can do whatever they want their whole life and at their deathbed just proclaim that they have faith - and be saved.
Because Jesus Christ Himself states ( and later James confirms) that Faith without Works is not enough.

That is pretty sufficient FOR ME.

Actually Vox, I think the passage is about a different dispensation of time. When Jesus walked this earth, He required His disciples to do more to follow Him. And the thing is this. When Jesus is present, God requires more because to whom much is given, much more is required. You won't be able to go just by faith because He will be here so you will have to obey Him in the future.

I have a book on works that I haven't put into publication. I'm either going to contact a pastor or put it into Kindle format because I can't afford to publish it otherwise.

Maybe I'll give you a free copy in the future because my book will destroy your idea of works.

Works don't save.

 

[hobelim]

oh, its far more imaginative than that.....I was just curious because even though I have a masters in theology I have never heard anyone make these claims before.....I was worried I had overlooked some denomination somewhere......

no, you did not. it is imagination of some rapture apologists.

Sorry, Irish, but the quotes you provided do not prove any 3 SEPARATE Judgements at all.
They just statte what will matter for the Final Judgement and prove that you can not be saved by FAITH ONLY. You need WORKS as well.

It was too late for the thief on the cross to work.

Not exactly.

“This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:29

 

[Chuckt]

no, you did not. it is imagination of some rapture apologists.

Sorry, Irish, but the quotes you provided do not prove any 3 SEPARATE Judgements at all.
They just statte what will matter for the Final Judgement and prove that you can not be saved by FAITH ONLY. You need WORKS as well.

It was too late for the thief on the cross to work.

Not exactly.

“This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:29

You are right but that isn't what Vox accepts in my opinion.

 

[hobelim]

It was too late for the thief on the cross to work.

Not exactly.

“This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:29

You are right but that isn't what Vox accepts in my opinion.

I think you are both right.

Belief is foundational, a start, and If you believe you will do good works, otherwise your belief is as lifeless as a corpse.


Remember? At the judgment a person is judged according to their words and deeds.

 

[Vox]

Grace is not merited favor, it is unmerited favor.
So if you are right, let me follow by example. I am assuming you are an adult and have sinned at some point in your life, so tell me what you have accomplished to solidify your seat at God's table. What works are necessary to gain entrance into heaven? I know of none that qualify except Christ's propitiation. And how much work is necessary? A year's worth? 6 years worth? Are you only saved by grace up until the time you accept Christ's gift and then you are responsible for the rest?

What works have you done to compensate for Christ's inability to save you from His cross? What makes your works clean while mine remains filthy? Boast for me about your works so that I too can compensate for Christ's incomplete salvation and save myself..

Really? you don't know that?

so Jesus Christ HIMSELF was wrong when HE explained what works are needed ?

Matthew 25:31-46

English Standard Version (ESV)
The Final Judgment

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So are you saying that all those DEEDS - and He mentions only WORKS, nothing else - are not required for Salvation when Our Lord HIMSELF states THEY ARE !!!!

That's some pretty bold statement on your part ( and others)

Now, I do not consider as you, obviously do, that there can not and should not be a MIXTURE of both Faith and Works. In some cases people might be saved by Faith only - and that is the example of the thief on the cross, although he voiced his Faith to Our Lord - and that was an act of courage and humility ( unlike the other one) and not faith only - as he could have been silent in his thoughts, right? That's a deed, a work - he PROCLAIMED his faith. But this particular example can to some extent be the one for the salvation by faith only - although in no way it means that people can do whatever they want their whole life and at their deathbed just proclaim that they have faith - and be saved.
Because Jesus Christ Himself states ( and later James confirms) that Faith without Works is not enough.

That is pretty sufficient FOR ME.

Actually Vox, I think the passage is about a different dispensation of time. When Jesus walked this earth, He required His disciples to do more to follow Him. And the thing is this. When Jesus is present, God requires more because to whom much is given, much more is required. You won't be able to go just by faith because He will be here so you will have to obey Him in the future.

I have a book on works that I haven't put into publication. I'm either going to contact a pastor or put it into Kindle format because I can't afford to publish it otherwise.

Maybe I'll give you a free copy in the future because my book will destroy your idea of works.

Works don't save.

Oh, please, it does not matter what YOU think - the text is CLEAR and SIMPLE - He is talking about the End of Times, the Last Judgement and what HE is going to take into consideration when HE is going to judge US.

Do you really, I mean REALLY think anybody is going to take your word about a stretch of "different dispensation" in order to fit your agenda vs the very clear and very simple words of Our Lord?
You've heard of Occam's razor, didn't you?

Works are essential part of our salvation and without them - well - you can take your chance, if you wish.

 

[Vox]

It was too late for the thief on the cross to work.

Not exactly.

“This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:29

You are right but that isn't what Vox accepts in my opinion.

Of course not, becasue He told us exactly what is He going to base His Judgement of us when He is going to Judge us at the End of Times.

That is totally enough for me.

I will trust His words.

 

[Vox]

Not exactly.

“This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:29

You are right but that isn't what Vox accepts in my opinion.

I think you are both right.

Belief is foundational, a start, and If you believe you will do good works, otherwise your belief is as lifeless as a corpse.


Remember? At the judgment a person is judged according to their words and deeds.

That I can agree with.
And I would add - on our thoughts, on our words, on what we have done and on what we have failed to do - everything will be taken into consideration. Everything.

 

[Chuckt]

Really? you don't know that?

so Jesus Christ HIMSELF was wrong when HE explained what works are needed ?



So are you saying that all those DEEDS - and He mentions only WORKS, nothing else - are not required for Salvation when Our Lord HIMSELF states THEY ARE !!!!

That's some pretty bold statement on your part ( and others)

Now, I do not consider as you, obviously do, that there can not and should not be a MIXTURE of both Faith and Works. In some cases people might be saved by Faith only - and that is the example of the thief on the cross, although he voiced his Faith to Our Lord - and that was an act of courage and humility ( unlike the other one) and not faith only - as he could have been silent in his thoughts, right? That's a deed, a work - he PROCLAIMED his faith. But this particular example can to some extent be the one for the salvation by faith only - although in no way it means that people can do whatever they want their whole life and at their deathbed just proclaim that they have faith - and be saved.
Because Jesus Christ Himself states ( and later James confirms) that Faith without Works is not enough.

That is pretty sufficient FOR ME.

Actually Vox, I think the passage is about a different dispensation of time. When Jesus walked this earth, He required His disciples to do more to follow Him. And the thing is this. When Jesus is present, God requires more because to whom much is given, much more is required. You won't be able to go just by faith because He will be here so you will have to obey Him in the future.

I have a book on works that I haven't put into publication. I'm either going to contact a pastor or put it into Kindle format because I can't afford to publish it otherwise.

Maybe I'll give you a free copy in the future because my book will destroy your idea of works.

Works don't save.

Oh, please, it does not matter what YOU think - the text is CLEAR and SIMPLE - He is talking about the End of Times, the Last Judgement and what HE is going to take into consideration when HE is going to judge US.

Do you really, I mean REALLY think anybody is going to take your word about a stretch of "different dispensation" in order to fit your agenda vs the very clear and very simple words of Our Lord?
You've heard of Occam's razor, didn't you?

Works are essential part of our salvation and without them - well - you can take your chance, if you wish.

I'm not taking any chances.
I don't see any point of repeating myself.
People don't listen. They keep repeating the same old arguments. I get it.
There is no point in releasing any new material. I'll still hear the old arguments.

Be deceived in the end times. That is what is going to happen. It is a time of deception because people won't listen to God.

 

[Vox]

Actually Vox, I think the passage is about a different dispensation of time. When Jesus walked this earth, He required His disciples to do more to follow Him. And the thing is this. When Jesus is present, God requires more because to whom much is given, much more is required. You won't be able to go just by faith because He will be here so you will have to obey Him in the future.

I have a book on works that I haven't put into publication. I'm either going to contact a pastor or put it into Kindle format because I can't afford to publish it otherwise.

Maybe I'll give you a free copy in the future because my book will destroy your idea of works.

Works don't save.

Oh, please, it does not matter what YOU think - the text is CLEAR and SIMPLE - He is talking about the End of Times, the Last Judgement and what HE is going to take into consideration when HE is going to judge US.

Do you really, I mean REALLY think anybody is going to take your word about a stretch of "different dispensation" in order to fit your agenda vs the very clear and very simple words of Our Lord?
You've heard of Occam's razor, didn't you?

Works are essential part of our salvation and without them - well - you can take your chance, if you wish.

I'm not taking any chances.
I don't see any point of repeating myself.
People don't listen. They keep repeating the same old arguments. I get it.
There is no point in releasing any new material. I'll still hear the old arguments.

Be deceived in the end times. That is what is going to happen. It is a time of deception because people won't listen to God.

well, sir, you are heavily sinning by pride, you know that, don't you?


You compare yourself to no less than Our Lord and His definition of what HE is going to use at the End Times for His Judgement and put your interpretation above His very simple, clear and not interpretable in any other way, words.

I have to say I AM astonished.

But not surprised, however.

 

[Chuckt]

Oh, please, it does not matter what YOU think - the text is CLEAR and SIMPLE - He is talking about the End of Times, the Last Judgement and what HE is going to take into consideration when HE is going to judge US.

Do you really, I mean REALLY think anybody is going to take your word about a stretch of "different dispensation" in order to fit your agenda vs the very clear and very simple words of Our Lord?
You've heard of Occam's razor, didn't you?

Works are essential part of our salvation and without them - well - you can take your chance, if you wish.

I'm not taking any chances.
I don't see any point of repeating myself.
People don't listen. They keep repeating the same old arguments. I get it.
There is no point in releasing any new material. I'll still hear the old arguments.

Be deceived in the end times. That is what is going to happen. It is a time of deception because people won't listen to God.

well, sir, you are heavily sinning by pride, you know that, don't you?


You compare yourself to no less than Our Lord and His definition of what HE is going to use at the End Times for His Judgement and put your interpretation above His very simple, clear and not interpretable in any other way, words.

I have to say I AM astonished.

But not surprised, however.

Millions of Christians believe in the rapture. 6 out of 10 Christian pastors believe in the rapture. They hold to a different opinion.

 

[jillian]

Actually Vox, I think the passage is about a different dispensation of time. When Jesus walked this earth, He required His disciples to do more to follow Him. And the thing is this. When Jesus is present, God requires more because to whom much is given, much more is required. You won't be able to go just by faith because He will be here so you will have to obey Him in the future.

I have a book on works that I haven't put into publication. I'm either going to contact a pastor or put it into Kindle format because I can't afford to publish it otherwise.

Maybe I'll give you a free copy in the future because my book will destroy your idea of works.

Works don't save.

Oh, please, it does not matter what YOU think - the text is CLEAR and SIMPLE - He is talking about the End of Times, the Last Judgement and what HE is going to take into consideration when HE is going to judge US.

Do you really, I mean REALLY think anybody is going to take your word about a stretch of "different dispensation" in order to fit your agenda vs the very clear and very simple words of Our Lord?
You've heard of Occam's razor, didn't you?

Works are essential part of our salvation and without them - well - you can take your chance, if you wish.

I'm not taking any chances.
I don't see any point of repeating myself.
People don't listen. They keep repeating the same old arguments. I get it.
There is no point in releasing any new material. I'll still hear the old arguments.

Be deceived in the end times. That is what is going to happen. It is a time of deception because people won't listen to God.

each of us believes that our beliefs are correct. each of us believes that everyone else's beliefs are incorrect.

the question is do you understand that unless someone believes what you believe, they think what you believe is false… and believe that with the same certainty that you believe others are incorrect.

end times? first the messiah would have to come.

which is why we know he hasn't.

 

[Avatar4321]

does coming here and correcting people's errors count as "works"?.......

Only if you correct your own as well.

 

[Avatar4321]

I'm not taking any chances.
I don't see any point of repeating myself.
People don't listen. They keep repeating the same old arguments. I get it.
There is no point in releasing any new material. I'll still hear the old arguments.

Be deceived in the end times. That is what is going to happen. It is a time of deception because people won't listen to God.

well, sir, you are heavily sinning by pride, you know that, don't you?


You compare yourself to no less than Our Lord and His definition of what HE is going to use at the End Times for His Judgement and put your interpretation above His very simple, clear and not interpretable in any other way, words.

I have to say I AM astonished.

But not surprised, however.

Millions of Christians believe in the rapture. 6 out of 10 Christian pastors believe in the rapture. They hold to a different opinion.

Really? Id love to see where you find those stats.

 

[Vox]

I'm not taking any chances.
I don't see any point of repeating myself.
People don't listen. They keep repeating the same old arguments. I get it.
There is no point in releasing any new material. I'll still hear the old arguments.

Be deceived in the end times. That is what is going to happen. It is a time of deception because people won't listen to God.

well, sir, you are heavily sinning by pride, you know that, don't you?


You compare yourself to no less than Our Lord and His definition of what HE is going to use at the End Times for His Judgement and put your interpretation above His very simple, clear and not interpretable in any other way, words.

I have to say I AM astonished.

But not surprised, however.

Millions of Christians believe in the rapture. 6 out of 10 Christian pastors believe in the rapture. They hold to a different opinion.

even more people believe in aliens and bigfoot. so?

 

[Chuckt]

well, sir, you are heavily sinning by pride, you know that, don't you?


You compare yourself to no less than Our Lord and His definition of what HE is going to use at the End Times for His Judgement and put your interpretation above His very simple, clear and not interpretable in any other way, words.

I have to say I AM astonished.

But not surprised, however.

Millions of Christians believe in the rapture. 6 out of 10 Christian pastors believe in the rapture. They hold to a different opinion.

even more people believe in aliens and bigfoot. so?

Prove it.
Christians like myself are looking for truth. People who believe in bigfoot aren't necessarily looking for truth.

 

[Chuckt]

well, sir, you are heavily sinning by pride, you know that, don't you?


You compare yourself to no less than Our Lord and His definition of what HE is going to use at the End Times for His Judgement and put your interpretation above His very simple, clear and not interpretable in any other way, words.

I have to say I AM astonished.

But not surprised, however.

Millions of Christians believe in the rapture. 6 out of 10 Christian pastors believe in the rapture. They hold to a different opinion.

Really? Id love to see where you find those stats.

Six in 10 evangelical leaders, or 61 percent, say they believe in the Rapture of the Church compared to 32 percent who say the End Times doesn't happen exactly this way, according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life survey.

The survey was based on responses from nearly 2,200 evangelical leaders at the Third Lausanne Congress on World Evangelization – a global gathering of 4,500 evangelical leaders from over 190 nations that was held last fall in Cape Town, South Africa.

Survey: Majority of Evangelical Leaders Believe in Rapture; Imminent Return of Jesus

 

[Chuckt]

Millions of Christians believe in the rapture. 6 out of 10 Christian pastors believe in the rapture. They hold to a different opinion.

Really? Id love to see where you find those stats.

Six in 10 evangelical leaders, or 61 percent, say they believe in the Rapture of the Church compared to 32 percent who say the End Times doesn't happen exactly this way, according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life survey.

The survey was based on responses from nearly 2,200 evangelical leaders at the Third Lausanne Congress on World Evangelization – a global gathering of 4,500 evangelical leaders from over 190 nations that was held last fall in Cape Town, South Africa.

Survey: Majority of Evangelical Leaders Believe in Rapture; Imminent Return of Jesus

[MENTION=854]Avatar4321[/MENTION]

Evangelicalism is a world-wide Protestant movement maintaining that the essence of the Christian Gospel consists in the doctrine of salvation by faith in Christ's atonement.[1] The movement gained great momentum in the 18th and 19th centuries with the emergence of Methodism and the Great Awakenings in the British Isles and North America. Pietism, Nicolaus Zinzendorf and the Moravian Church, Presbyterianism and Puritanism have influenced Evangelicalism.

Influential leaders in the English-speaking world have included John Wesley, George Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards. The United States has the largest concentration of Evangelicals by country, with roughly a quarter of the world's Evangelicals (over 90 million). Many Evangelicals now live outside the English-speaking world and over 42 million live in Brazil alone.[2] The movement continues to draw adherents globally in the 21st century, especially in the developing world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

90 million * .60 percent equals 54 million.

You can do the math.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Vox, Since neither of us heard Christ's voice isn't anything you read in the Bible secondary? Aren't you taking someone's word for what they have heard and seen?
Mark wasn't there. Luke wasn't there. So, do you believe what Mary told Luke about Christ's birth? It's second hand info. and wouldn't even hold up in court.

But Matthew was there, and so was John. If you don't believe them, do you even bother with the rest of the book?
What is it about what they said that you think I have interpreted, or somehow changed, or read too much into? I read what it said. I believe Matthew when He told us what he heard and saw Christ say and do. And I believe him when he said he saw Jesus return and with whom and where they came from, and where they went.
What do you do with what Matthew said he saw?
Leave me out of it and just tell me what you read. How is it that he is credible enough to tell us what he heard Christ say and do, but not credible when it comes to what he saw 3 days later?

This is no interpretation but this is what Matthew said he saw:

Matthew 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I neither added to it or took away from it.
I don't mean to be contrary, but I think it says what it says. What do you think it says, and does what he said contradict what you believe? What do you do with those sentences? You don't believe it so, what do you do with it? How do you dismiss it?

The same with John. I believe what John told us about what he saw and heard while he was standing under that cross, and what he said he saw in Revelation.
How is it you believe some of what he has told us about what Christ said and what Christ did, and dismiss the rest?

Did John tell us the truth about what Christ said to the churches but not about seeing the beheaded while he was talking to Christ about the churches?
Do you believe they are Christ's messages to the angels of the churches John describes in Revelation? Or some of it is? Did Christ really address the churches? Why did John say he saw those beheaded for refusing the mark, if they weren't really there, but still in their graves? How was Moses seen in the air and has yet to leave the grave? Where are Enoch and Elijah buried? And how was he at the meeting with Moses and Christ in the air? I need answers to those questions.
And if we make it through this, still friends, I'd love to go through the works vs cross only for salvation, debate. I thinks it's an important issue well worth examining.


Oh and Post,

does coming here and correcting people's errors count as "works"?.......

I donno. I'll let ya know when it happens........