It's a False Doctrine That People Go To Heaven Immediately After Death

[Chuckt]

If that's the case, then who are the "dead in Christ" that Jesus is coming back for when He returns?

Marc,

The body sleeps. The soul goes to live with the Lord:

At death, the body lies in repose in the grave awaiting the resurrection of the last day, but the soul goes to be at home with the Lord. This is the doctrine of the intermediate state. Believers experience in a provisional sense the rewards that await them in heaven, while unbelievers experience a taste of their eternal torment in hell (Luke 16:19–31).

Who are the dead in Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:16?

Chuck

The soul is the body and spirit united as one. Without the body the soul is incomplete.

The body died a long time ago. We're still fighting the old man. I think the flesh holds you back.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ephesians 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

1 Corinthians 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Thanks Brother hortysir, however, I have to insist that it's not even about agreeing w/me or not, it's strictly about what Scripture says.

Like you said, there's no evidence of that doctrine at all. In fact, all doctrine is CLEARLY against that false belief of purgatory...amongst other things.

When Christ died He went to Abraham's Bosom which was referred to as Paradise, to collect those who favored God, and He spoke to the souls in Hades. There was a deep chasm that separated the two areas so no one could cross from one place to the other, but they could speak to one another. Those souls that had died without favoring God were all in one place. The bodies of those souls in Hades still remain buried to this day.
The souls of those in Paradise were reunited with the bodies that they inhabited on earth and were rendered immortal, just as Christ retains His immortal body. They returned with Him to earth and then ascended with Him to Heaven.
Those in Paradise were unable to ascend to Heaven until Christ paid for their sins, and broke through the barrier of death. He descended to gather them and bring them back with Him.

Those souls who have died in Christ since Christ's work on the cross go straight up to Heaven. There is no need for a temporary shelter. There is coming a time when those souls will be reunited with their bodies also and will return with Christ at His second coming.
For instance, John saw the souls of those that will be martyred during the tribulation in Heaven, because there is no longer a need to wait until our sins are forgiven as Abraham, David and the others had to do.

The earth will give up it's dead, those in Hades, at the time of the White Throne Judgment.

If Hades was a grave there would be no way for those in Hades to have spoken to Abraham or listened to Christ.
Here is a description of both places:

Paradise is no longer necessary. Hades is.
If Hades was a grave Christ would not have been able to address them as the grave is a singular place. Christ spoke to the spirits which is plural.

1Peter 3:19
...by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison

If you belonged to Christ while you were here on earth, your last breath here is your first breath in Heaven.

Paul said of believers, that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Lord is sitting to the right of God in Heaven.

IR, please understand that I am not intentionally arguing semantics with you...just merely voicing my own opinions based on my own teachings and interpretations

I would like to address the portion I bolded further;
What of "those dead in Christ will rise first"?
Rise from where, if not the pit/grave?

And to the second statement I bolded;
That was explained to me as your "breath of life", not your eternal soul, returning to the One that gave it to you.

Hi Horty.
There is no reason to believe that the coming rapture will be any different than the one that happened before. When Christ was on the cross, there was an earthquake and about 10,000 graves opened. Those were the graves that held the bodies of the souls in Abraham's Bosom. Those were the dead in God. Those bodies were reunited with the souls that were about to return with Christ. Before the event occurred, the bodies and souls were in two separate locations.
When the time comes, the graves of those who are dead in Christ will open and in 11/100th of a second the bodies of the dead, and their souls that have been waiting in heaven will be reunited.
Those that are alive in Christ when it happens will also be taken up and their bodies glorified at the same time. < That is the only difference between the first event and the one that's coming. The reason for the reunion is that we will need those bodies to come back to earth with Christ to rule and reign.

The spirit that we refer to as the breath of life returns to our Father at the time of our demise. It is that God breathed spirit that turned Adam from a mannequin to a living being, and returned to God when Adam died. It is that spirit that Jesus sent back to His Father to complete the death requirement for our sin. It is not our soul. It is how one can have an out of body experience (our soul separating from our body) and still live to talk about it. Because the breath of life didn't leave their body.

When it does, the body ceases to function, and the soul steps right out of it to continue it's journey. Where is contingent upon a life lived for Christ or not.
Those in the "or not" category whose souls are confined to Hades, are the ones referred to when "the earth gives up her dead" for trial at the White Throne Judgment, after the millennial reign of Christ and those that lived for Christ.
I hope that's not to confusing.

 

[hobelim]

Chasidic Judaism takes the posituon that all souls go to heaven - eventually.
It is a cleansing process, an intense process similar to cleaning dirty clothes.
It is not an enjoyable exoperience.
Fortunately, the most any soul can spend in this limbo cleansing is 11 months.
The body remains behind, to be resurrected when the Messiah comes.
Shalom,
Don Levit

when people who were in the grave heard the Baal Shem Tov speak they reported that they came out of their graves at the sound of his voice even though the physically dead do not have ears to hear or mouths that speak..

Do you believe that they were physically dead or spiritually dead as a consequence of setting aside the divine commands?


If they were not physically dead why would the expected resurrection of the dead when the Moshiach comes be any different?

 

[Avatar4321]

Marc,

The body sleeps. The soul goes to live with the Lord:



Who are the dead in Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:16?

Chuck

The soul is the body and spirit united as one. Without the body the soul is incomplete.

The body died a long time ago. We're still fighting the old man. I think the flesh holds you back.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ephesians 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

1 Corinthians 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If our bodies are unimportant, why did Christ ensure that we will be resurrected so that our bodies and our spirits are reunited for Eternity?

 

[hobelim]

If our bodies are unimportant, why did Christ ensure that we will be resurrected so that our bodies and our spirits are reunited for Eternity?

"The spirit alone gives life; the flesh is of no avail."


The subject of the resurrection is not the resumption of a former physical existence, it is entry into a new existence.

If the ascension of Jesus into heaven was a bodily ascension then he ascended into heaven before he died a physical death and still had a body. That Jesus ascended implies that he had first descended into the pit, hades, gehenna, the realm of the dead, hence; "he was tempted by the devil in the wilderness, and lived among the wild beasts."


The resurrection is about rising to life from the death consequent to defying divine law. God is the God of the living.

Either one rises to eternal life by complying with the divine commands according to the revelation of Jesus about the figurative nature of the words and hidden subjects, while they still have a body to ascend in, or they are judged according to their words and deeds when their body dies.

Once the physical body dies, it stays dead.

... and no one can repent from the grave.

 

[PostmodernProph]

How do we know? Because after the Resurrection Christ said He had still not ascended to Heaven.

If after the resurrection Christ had still not been to heaven, then clearly either Paradise is a different place than heaven, or Christ lied to the theif. I am not going to seriously consider the argument that the Holy one of Israel is a liar.

seriously?.....do you believe we can do everything Christ did?......what if he didn't go to heaven between the crucifixion and the ascension because he had things to do......like go to hell and free those who had died before his incarnation......bind Satan........have lunch.......convince his apostles that he wasn't still dead......does that mean we have to have a special place to wait until we can go?......

 

[Avatar4321]

How do we know? Because after the Resurrection Christ said He had still not ascended to Heaven.

If after the resurrection Christ had still not been to heaven, then clearly either Paradise is a different place than heaven, or Christ lied to the theif. I am not going to seriously consider the argument that the Holy one of Israel is a liar.

seriously?.....do you believe we can do everything Christ did?......what if he didn't go to heaven between the crucifixion and the ascension because he had things to do......like go to hell and free those who had died before his incarnation......bind Satan........have lunch.......convince his apostles that he wasn't still dead......does that mean we have to have a special place to wait until we can go?......

So you're trying to argue that paradise isn't the place the righteous dwelled while awaiting for the resurrection by agreeing with me that he went to free those who died before his incarnation...

 

[PostmodernProph]

So you're trying to argue that paradise isn't the place the righteous dwelled while awaiting for the resurrection by agreeing with me that he went to free those who died before his incarnation...

no.....just pointing out that your argument that "heaven" and "paradise" are two different places is seriously weak.....so what's to keep us from going to heaven a few days later, like Christ did?.......why do we have to wait till the second coming?.......

oh I get it.....you think that because those that died BEFORE he died on the cross had to wait, so the rest of us do as well?.......why?..... he died on the cross 2000 years ago.....nothing left to wait for.....

 

[Avatar4321]

So you're trying to argue that paradise isn't the place the righteous dwelled while awaiting for the resurrection by agreeing with me that he went to free those who died before his incarnation...

no.....just pointing out that your argument that "heaven" and "paradise" are two different places is seriously weak.....so what's to keep us from going to heaven a few days later, like Christ did?.......why do we have to wait till the second coming?.......

oh I get it.....you think that because those that died BEFORE he died on the cross had to wait, so the rest of us do as well?.......why?..... he died on the cross 2000 years ago.....nothing left to wait for.....

So you are claiming heaven and paradise are the same place, how did Christ go with the Theif to paradise the day they died if He did not ascend to Heaven until after the resurrection?

And yes. We have to wait for the resurrection of the Just and Unjust as well. Or do you think the scriptures mention these resurrections before Judgment because we automatically go to heaven when we die?

 

[Vox]

Or hell for that matter.

.

some do. the vast majority go to other place, though

 

[Vox]

If our bodies are unimportant, why did Christ ensure that we will be resurrected so that our bodies and our spirits are reunited for Eternity?

He never stated that the body will stay the same as it was on Earth - it will be transformed to "spiritual body" ( whatever that means as nobody knows) and it will be totally different from our earthly ones.

 

[Vox]

Chasidic Judaism takes the posituon that all souls go to heaven - eventually.
It is a cleansing process, an intense process similar to cleaning dirty clothes.
It is not an enjoyable exoperience.
Fortunately, the most any soul can spend in this limbo cleansing is 11 months.
The body remains behind, to be resurrected when the Messiah comes.
Shalom,
Don Levit

Interesting.

where does the figure come from?

 

[Vox]

Or hell for that matter.

You guys do realize that don't you?

I'm here watching the service live and it's just one false doctrine after the other.

Christiandom as it's today is in a state of confusion.

It's more about the incompatible nature of Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism, when we die we're immediately judged and either proceed to the world to come, or not. Numerous stories relate how the dead did in fact go to 'heaven.' But in Christianity it's said you stay in the ground (or sea) until Judgement Day.

Absolutely NOT true. In Christianity - in the vast majority of it - in ALL Catholic and ALL Orthodox Churches ( and as I understand in a lot of Protestant as well) the Particular Judgement of the soul ensues after death immediately. The place of destination differs depending of which Church you belong to - Heaven, Hell or Purgatory.

The Final or Last Judgement will happen at the End of Times after the Second Coming of Christ - and that is when the rising of the dead will occur ( before the Last Judgement).

There is not going to be any other coming of Christ before the Final Judgement.

 

[PostmodernProph]

So you are claiming heaven and paradise are the same place, how did Christ go with the Theif to paradise the day they died if He did not ascend to Heaven until after the resurrection?

????.......Jesus and the Father are one......he was in heaven waiting for the thief while he and the thief were on the cross.....

And yes. We have to wait for the resurrection of the Just and Unjust as well. Or do you think the scriptures mention these resurrections before Judgment because we automatically go to heaven when we die?

actually I don't think the scriptures mention two separate resurrections before judgment.....all I recall is Jesus coming back.....

 

[Kooshdakhaa]

And you know this how? For some religion is a comfort, as is belief in heaven. Who the hell do you think you are to take that away from them? Maybe you oughta just STFU.

My friend, The Gospel isn't about feelings, as in what individuals feel about certain issues.

It's about The Truth.

It's very comforting for humans to believe that their loved ones aren't really dead, but looking down on them in heaven, that doesn't make it true.

Doesn't make it not true either.

I believe in Thus Said The Lord, and The Lord didn't say we get an instant trip to Heaven upon death.

Sorta left that impression though, no?

First of all, what the bible says may or may not really be the complete truth. It says a lot of contradictory things, one can accept parts of it or none of it and still believe in God or in Christianity.

Here's the deal, you can believe whatever you want, fine by me. But stomping on somebody's else's beliefs, I kinda have a problem with that. Marginalizing someone else for having a different viewpoint, that ain't cool in my book. I tend to lose a lot of respect for those who do that.

Ummm...this is a discussion board.

 

[Avatar4321]

So you are claiming heaven and paradise are the same place, how did Christ go with the Theif to paradise the day they died if He did not ascend to Heaven until after the resurrection?

????.......Jesus and the Father are one......he was in heaven waiting for the thief while he and the thief were on the cross.....

And yes. We have to wait for the resurrection of the Just and Unjust as well. Or do you think the scriptures mention these resurrections before Judgment because we automatically go to heaven when we die?

actually I don't think the scriptures mention two separate resurrections before judgment.....all I recall is Jesus coming back.....

One in purpose is not identical beings.

How does one ascend to see themselves in heaven?

John 5 speaks of the Resurrection of the Just and Unjust.

 

[PostmodernProph]

One in purpose is not identical beings.

one God.....

John 5 speaks of the Resurrection of the Just and Unjust.

okay....but not in the plural.....and it isn't BEFORE Judgement Day, it IS Judgement Day.....

 

[BorisTheAnimal]

What marc is referring to is called soul sleep and THAT is unscriptural.

 

[TooTall]

Or hell for that matter.

You guys do realize that don't you?

I'm here watching the service live and it's just one false doctrine after the other.

Christiandom as it's today is in a state of confusion.

Who told you that, Obama?

Stop being silly.

Scripture states that His reward is with Him when he comes again.

What does that tell you?

Furthermore, Scripture states that the living know they will die, but the dead know nothing.

From the dust we came and from the dust we will return.

We don't get a prize immediately after death and become "angels" looking down on earth. Or looking up from hell while we burn.

It doesn't work like that. That is a false doctrine perpetuated by Satan and the Roman Catholic Church, who even went as far as invented a place called "purgatory."
(No offence to Roman Catholics on here)

If it does, please provide me the Scripture that backs that up.

I can provide the Scripture to back up what I'm saying.

I knew that and I was being silly about a serious subject. I offer my apoloby.

 

[editec]

Or hell for that matter.

You guys do realize that don't you?

I'm here watching the service live and it's just one false doctrine after the other.

Christiandom as it's today is in a state of confusion.

Burn in hell, heretic!

..or not.
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