i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.. enter *your* opinions please..

[toomuchtime_]

As I’ve said, Putin is an asshole and a dictator. However only a fool blames him entirely for this terrible easily avoided war. You are a fool.

Only a fool would deny it. As you say, Putin is a dictator so the decision to invade Ukraine was entirely his.

 

[gipper]

Only a fool would deny it. As you say, Putin is a dictator so the decision to invade Ukraine was entirely his.

Doubt that.

 

[ESay]

NATO existed to confront the USSR. Guess what my little Uke friend, the USSR died a peaceful death long ago and so should NATO. NATO is nothing more than an arms for dollars scheme, designed specifically to enrich a few war profiteers.

NATO should exist as a guarantor of security in Europe. If we are talking about external threat, then in the 20th century it was the USSR, now it is Russia.

 

[ESay]

Give me your version, MAGA.

No thanks. There is a good Russian saying: Duraka uchit' - tolko portit'. (Something like, educating of a fool only spoils him).

 

[gipper]

NATO should exist as a guarantor of security in Europe. If we are talking about external threat, then in the 20th century it was the USSR, now it is Russia.

A made up threat to enrich the war profiteers. Old tactic but it still works on the uninformed.

 

[AntonToo]

As I’ve said, Putin is an asshole and a dictator. However only a fool blames him entirely for this terrible easily avoided war. You are a fool.

The only who could've easily avoided this war is the guy who ordered it - Putin. DUH

 

[georgephillip]

Yanukovych attempted to hand the Ukrainian government over to Putin, probably on Putin's orders, and when that failed Putin promptly invaded attempting to take by force what he had been unable to swindle Ukraine.

Yanukovych refused an IMF "loan" that would have required his citizens to lose their gas subsidies thereby increasing costs to consumers beyond the ability to pay for many.

The US government saw an opportunity to sell American LNG to its European puppets, cutting out traditional Russian gas supplies; how's that working out at the moment?

 

[gipper]

The only who could've easily avoided this war is the guy who ordered it - Putin. DUH

Lol. I’ve already schooled you on this. Are you sure you don’t have dementia?

The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China
Jeffrey D. Sachs • August 23, 2022
• 1,200 Words • 180 Comments • Reply
The Western narrative about the Ukraine war is that it is an unprovoked attack by Putin in the quest to recreate the Russian empire. Yet the real history starts with the Western promise to Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not enlarge to the East, followed by four waves of NATO aggrandizement: in 1999, incorporating three Central European countries; in 2004, incorporating 7 more, including in the Black Sea and Baltic States; in 2008, committing to enlarge to Ukraine and Georgia; and in 2022, inviting four Asia-Pacific leaders to NATO to take aim at China.

Nor do the Western media mention the US role in the 2014 overthrow of Ukraine’s pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych; the failure of the Governments of France and Germany, guarantors of the Minsk II agreement, to press Ukraine to carry out its commitments; the vast US armaments sent to Ukraine during the Trump and Biden Administrations in the lead-up to war; nor the refusal of the US to negotiate with Putin over NATO enlargement to Ukraine.

Of course, NATO says that is purely defensive, so that Putin should have nothing to fear. In other words, Putin should take no notice of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and Syria; the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999; the NATO overthrow of Moammar Qaddafi in 2011; the NATO occupation of Afghanistan for 15 years; nor Biden’s “gaffe” calling for Putin’s ouster (which of course was no gaffe at all); nor US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin stating that the US war aim in Ukraine is the weakening of Russia.
The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China

 

[AntonToo]

Lol. I’ve already schooled you on this. Are you sure you don’t have dementia?

The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China
Jeffrey D. Sachs • August 23, 2022
• 1,200 Words • 180 Comments • Reply
The Western narrative about the Ukraine war is that it is an unprovoked attack by Putin in the quest to recreate the Russian empire. Yet the real history starts with the Western promise to Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not enlarge to the East, followed by four waves of NATO aggrandizement: in 1999, incorporating three Central European countries; in 2004, incorporating 7 more, including in the Black Sea and Baltic States; in 2008, committing to enlarge to Ukraine and Georgia; and in 2022, inviting four Asia-Pacific leaders to NATO to take aim at China.

Nor do the Western media mention the US role in the 2014 overthrow of Ukraine’s pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych; the failure of the Governments of France and Germany, guarantors of the Minsk II agreement, to press Ukraine to carry out its commitments; the vast US armaments sent to Ukraine during the Trump and Biden Administrations in the lead-up to war; nor the refusal of the US to negotiate with Putin over NATO enlargement to Ukraine.

Of course, NATO says that is purely defensive, so that Putin should have nothing to fear. In other words, Putin should take no notice of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and Syria; the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999; the NATO overthrow of Moammar Qaddafi in 2011; the NATO occupation of Afghanistan for 15 years; nor Biden’s “gaffe” calling for Putin’s ouster (which of course was no gaffe at all); nor US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin stating that the US war aim in Ukraine is the weakening of Russia.
The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China

Can't school with bullshit.

Starting the war was entirely Putin's descision and no one else, he is responsible for it.

If he wouldn't order it, then it wouldn't happen and Russia would have been way better off for it too. It is actually is that clear and simple.

 

[georgephillip]

Presenting these bizarre hypotheticals about the US does nothing to justify Russia's illegal and inhumane actions; it just demonstrates that you find it impossible to defend Russia's heinous crimes which you support.

There's nothing hypothetical about US meddling in the affairs of foreign states; anyone saying otherwise is lying or brain-dead.

"(The) cover from Time magazine (7/15/96): a chipper Boris Yeltsin holding an American flag, and the line 'Yanks to the Rescue! The Secret Story of How American Advisers Helped Yeltsin Win.'

"You can make 'one law for me, another for thee' your credo, but you can’t be too surprised when others are unimpressed."

Hypocrisy of Russia-Did-It Stories Is Hard to Stomach - FAIR

 

[AntonToo]

There's nothing hypothetical about US meddling in the affairs of foreign states; anyone saying otherwise is lying or brain-dead.

"(The) cover from Time magazine (7/15/96): a chipper Boris Yeltsin holding an American flag, and the line 'Yanks to the Rescue! The Secret Story of How American Advisers Helped Yeltsin Win.'

"You can make 'one law for me, another for thee' your credo, but you can’t be too surprised when others are unimpressed."

Hypocrisy of Russia-Did-It Stories Is Hard to Stomach - FAIR

It's ok for Russia to invade other countries and take their land because US meddles.

Did I capture your elegant argument correctly?

 

[gipper]

Can't school with bullshit.

Starting the war was entirely Putin's descision and no one else, he is responsible for it.

If he wouldn't order it, then it wouldn't happen and Russia would have been way better off for it too. It is actually is that clear and simple.

I guess a simple minded person from Ukraine would think that.

 

[gipper]

It's ok for Russia to invade other countries and take their land because US meddles.

Did I capture your elegant argument correctly?

Your argument is the US is perfectly right to invade nations thousands of miles from home, but Russia better not do the same to a nation on it’s border.

Plus the US has every right to provide massive amounts of military hardware to the invaded nation so that thousands will die in it’s proxy war, but war profiteers will get fabulously rich.

 

[alexa]

Can't school with bullshit.

Starting the war was entirely Putin's descision and no one else, he is responsible for it.

If he wouldn't order it, then it wouldn't happen and Russia would have been way better off for it too. It is actually is that clear and simple.

Oh please do you really believe that people act for no reason. A Good Democracy Now filling in some of the reasons we all find ourselves in the situation we are in now - and it is not because you are the 'good guys'though I accept that is what you have been conditioned to believe.

 

[AntonToo]

Your argument is the US is perfectly right to invade nations thousands of miles from home, but Russia better not do the same to a nation on it’s border.

No it isn't my argument. You are just making shit up.

You want to discuss specific wars US started, some of which I and many others opposed form day 1? Wars that Americans have come to understand were mistakes? Sure, go make a thread. Nothing about that excuses Russian invasion and annexation of Ukranian land that THIS thread is about. You are just too damn stupid to grasp that.

 

[AntonToo]

Oh please do you really believe that people act for no reason.

No I don't belive that, I belive Putin is acting for REALLY BAD reasons.

If I was a Russian leader obsessed with becoming a historical figure like Peter the Great, then I too would jump at any excuse to grab some lands instead of prioritizing the welfare of my people.

 

[gipper]

No I don't belive that, I belive Putin is acting for REALLY BAD reasons.

How about W and O? Were they acting really bad?

 

[AntonToo]

it is not because you are the 'good guys'though I accept that is what you have been conditioned to believe.

Having being born and living in Russia it's not at all what I've "been conditioned to belive" it's what I've LEARNED about the abject failure that is Russia's corrupt governing and vastly superior governing structure in developed democracies, which of course inludes United States that I now call my home.

America is certainly not perfect and we make mistakes, but our relatively open and low corruption system allows for reflection and correction from the bottom up. It's what I'm proud to be part of.

 

[alexa]

No I don't belive that, I belive Putin is acting for REALLY BAD reasons.

If I was a Russian leader obsessed with becoming a historical figure like Peter the Great, then I too would jump at any excuse to grab some lands instead of prioritizing the welfare of my people.

Well Peter the great is one thing but why not look at what caused his thoughts to develop in that way. The Democracy Now interview gives an introduction to some of that and to Putin's original feelings. Beginning point I think that no sooner had Russia and the US agreed that NATO would go no further, than the US was already making its plans to take over the previous Warsaw Pack countries and surround Russia with Nato and arguably with no country stronger than with Ukraine - the country in NATO in everything but name.

 

[AntonToo]

How about W and O? Were they acting really bad?

Start a separate thread and I'll tell you all about that. I'm not going to let you derail this one.