i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.. enter *your* opinions please..

[toomuchtime_]

You’ve bought the establishment’s simple minded narrative, which is entirely propaganda to benefit the oligarchy.

Maybe this will help…

The irony is that since 1980 the US has been in at least 15 overseas wars of choice (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Panama, Serbia, Syria, and Yemen just to name a few), while China has been in none, and Russia only in one (Syria) beyond the former Soviet Union. The US has military bases in 85 countries, China in 3, and Russia in 1 (Syria) beyond the former Soviet Union.

There you go again trying to change the subject because you find it impossible to justify Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

 

[ESay]

Truth for dummies…


The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China
Jeffrey D. Sachs • August 23, 2022
• 1,200 Words • 180 Comments • Reply
The Western narrative about the Ukraine war is that it is an unprovoked attack by Putin in the quest to recreate the Russian empire. Yet the real history starts with the Western promise to Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not enlarge to the East, followed by four waves of NATO aggrandizement: in 1999, incorporating three Central European countries; in 2004, incorporating 7 more, including in the Black Sea and Baltic States; in 2008, committing to enlarge to Ukraine and Georgia; and in 2022, inviting four Asia-Pacific leaders to NATO to take aim at China.

Nor do the Western media mention the US role in the 2014 overthrow of Ukraine’s pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych; the failure of the Governments of France and Germany, guarantors of the Minsk II agreement, to press Ukraine to carry out its commitments; the vast US armaments sent to Ukraine during the Trump and Biden Administrations in the lead-up to war; nor the refusal of the US to negotiate with Putin over NATO enlargement to Ukraine.

Of course, NATO says that is purely defensive, so that Putin should have nothing to fear. In other words, Putin should take no notice of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and Syria; the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999; the NATO overthrow of Moammar Qaddafi in 2011; the NATO occupation of Afghanistan for 15 years; nor Biden’s “gaffe” calling for Putin’s ouster (which of course was no gaffe at all); nor US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin stating that the US war aim in Ukraine is the weakening of Russia.
The West's Dangerously Simple-Minded Narrative About Russia and China

1. There was no committing to enlarge to Ukraine and Georgia. In the Bucharest summit in 2008, instead of giving the MAP to these countries, NATO issued a declaration that Ukraine and Georgia will be NATO members some time. Without commitments and terms.

2. Have you ever read the Minsk agreements, Yuri? Why no one of you idiots demanded to press Russia for their implementation?

3. Yes, NATO's main aim is to confront Russia. Ever was and will ever be. Otherwise, its existence is meaningless.

 

[gipper]

There you go again trying to change the subject because you find it impossible to justify Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

I already did. Can you read English?

 

[gipper]

1. There was no committing to enlarge to Ukraine and Georgia. In the Bucharest summit in 2008, instead of giving the MAP to these countries, NATO issued a declaration that Ukraine and Georgia will be NATO members some time. Without commitments and terms.

2. Have you ever read the Minsk agreements, Yuri? Why no one of you idiots demanded to press Russia for their implementation?

3. Yes, NATO's main aim is to confront Russia. Ever was and will ever be. Otherwise, its existence is meaningless.

NATO existed to confront the USSR. Guess what my little Uke friend, the USSR died a peaceful death long ago and so should NATO. NATO is nothing more than an arms for dollars scheme, designed specifically to enrich a few war profiteers.

 

[sparky]

However, NATO was created as a defensive alliance against the potential of further post WWII Soviet expansion.

~S~

 

[Redfish]

Do you have a link for those poll numbers?

it was on CNN, look it up for yourself. I am not here to be your teacher.

 

[gipper]

Fact: Russia invaded Ukraine and is annexing their land.

You can't admit that fact, can you poodle?

Hey Uke, we’re watching the United States try to start a war between China and Taiwan in real time and if it happens, dumb Americans and Ukes like you will easily be convinced that China is the aggressor and it was all totally unprovoked.

That's one of the jobs of our media, yet dummies buy it every time.

 

[AntonToo]

Hey Uke, we’re watching the United States try to start a war

Russia invaded Ukraine and is annexing their lands and think your deflection somehow justifies it?

You are so fucked in the head it's scary.

 

[AntonToo]

NATO existed to confront the USSR. Guess what my little Uke friend, the USSR died a peaceful death long ago and so should NATO. NATO is nothing more than an arms for dollars scheme, designed specifically to enrich a few war profiteers.

Yep, no matter how many times you completely destroy his bullshit arguments he comes right back here to parrot them over and over and over.

Not sure if he is just mentally deficient or getting paid to do this.

 

[gipper]

Yep, no matter how many times you completely destroy his bullshit arguments he comes right back here to parrot them over and over and over.

Not sure if he is just mentally deficient or getting paid to do this.

I push peace. You push war. Now who’s more likely to be getting paid?

 

[georgephillip]

Do you know the difference between the two, bonehead?

Give me your version, MAGA.

 

[georgephillip]

Of course there was no coup. Yanukovych was voted out of office by an overwhelming majority of the parliament and new elections were held.

That voting took place after armed Maidan protesters began shooting at police first on the day of the mass killing on Institutskaya Street.

Yanukovych ordered government forces pulled from the center of Kiev to comply with the recent agreement, and he obviously convinced himself he was worth more alive outside of Kiev than dead inside the city.

None of this would have happened absent US meddling in the internal affairs of Ukraine, something the US has pursued since 1949.

A Year After Maidan: Why Did Viktor Yanukovych Flee After Signing the Agreement With the Opposition?

 

[AntonToo]

I push peace.

Wtf does downplaying and deflecting from bloody Russian invasion and take over of Ukranian land have to do with "pushing peace"?

If you were "pushing peace" you would be condemning these imperialist atrocities by Putin in the harshest of terms.

Take your "pushing peace" bullshit somewhere else. No one here is buying it.

 

[gipper]

That voting took place after armed Maidan protesters began shooting at police first on the day of the mass killing on Institutskaya Street.

Yanukovych ordered government forces pulled from the center of Kiev to comply with the recent agreement, and he obviously convinced himself he was worth more alive outside of Kiev than dead inside the city.

None of this would have happened absent US meddling in the internal affairs of Ukraine, something the US has pursued since 1949.

A Year After Maidan: Why Did Viktor Yanukovych Flee After Signing the Agreement With the Opposition?

The statist loving warmonger knows nothing about this and doesn’t want to know.

 

[AntonToo]

That voting took place after armed Maidan protesters began shooting at police first on the day of the mass killing on Institutskaya Street.

Yanukovych ordered government forces pulled from the center of Kiev to comply with the recent agreement, and he obviously convinced himself he was worth more alive outside of Kiev than dead inside the city.

None of this would have happened absent US meddling in the internal affairs of Ukraine, something the US has pursued since 1949.

A Year After Maidan: Why Did Viktor Yanukovych Flee After Signing the Agreement With the Opposition?

There is no evidence Ukranians would not rise up against Yankovych's gov without Americans. It's just a bs Russian talking point.

 

[gipper]

Wtf does downplaying and deflecting from bloody Russian invasion and take over of Ukranian land have to do with "pushing peace"?

If you were "pushing peace" you would be condemning these imperialist atrocities by Putin in the harshest of terms.

Take your "pushing peace" bullshit somewhere else. No one here is buying it.

Of course. You prove once again you know nothing of the history of Ukraine. You know Russia invaded. That’s it.

See my post above.

 

[AntonToo]

Of course. You prove once again you know nothing of the history of Ukraine. You know Russia invaded. That’s it.

See my post above.

Yep, "peace pusher" blames Russia's bloody invasion and annexing lands on everyone but Russia

Kremlin bullshit pusher is what you actually are.

 

[alexa]

Ukraine was part of Russia for decades, in a recent poll over half of Ukrainians wanted to rejoin Russia.

This is just nonsense and could not be further from the truth.

What percentage of Ukrainians want to join Russia?

Answer (1 of 28): Those Ukrainians who want to become part of Russia just move to Russia. It is now relatively easy and Russia is welcoming Ukrainian immigrants (not to speak about working migrants, of whom there’re couple of millions in Russia). If the question is about Ukraine joining Russia.....

www.quora.com

 

[gipper]

Yep, "peace pusher" blames Russia's bloody invasion and annexing lands on everyone but Russia

Kremlin bullshit pusher is what you actually are.

As I’ve said, Putin is an asshole and a dictator. However only a fool blames him entirely for this terrible easily avoided war. You are a fool.

 

[toomuchtime_]

That voting took place after armed Maidan protesters began shooting at police first on the day of the mass killing on Institutskaya Street.

Yanukovych ordered government forces pulled from the center of Kiev to comply with the recent agreement, and he obviously convinced himself he was worth more alive outside of Kiev than dead inside the city.

None of this would have happened absent US meddling in the internal affairs of Ukraine, something the US has pursued since 1949.

A Year After Maidan: Why Did Viktor Yanukovych Flee After Signing the Agreement With the Opposition?

As always, you are full of shit. Yanukovych tried to outlaw protests and when that failed he sent special police squads out to break up the protests by force. The police killed 118 protesters and in the process 13 cops were killed. It was only after that event that the protesters came armed. The overwhelming majority of the public and the parliament favored signing the agreement with the EU and Yanukovych ignored them and tried to prevent the people from protesting.

Why did he flee? Because he called on Russia to invade Ukraine and restore him to power.