Jew vs. Athiest : Christians Judge

[BluePhantom]

Cherry picker. Lol.

Yes just like american slave masters used religion to control their slaves so did the Egyptian Pharaohs long before christianity.

The Greeks use to argue for Zeus and the people they caught believed in different gods.

I dont believe any ruler ever killed in the name of no god or for no god but plenty of theists kill for god.

You bring up ancient history that is debatable. How about all the Muslim theists murdering for the same god you worship?

Yes people murder in the name of God or the gods. They also murder for money or out of jealousy. In fact I would argue that most wars are about money (even the Crusades) and not religion. Did the Egyptians invade because the gods told them to? No they did it because they wanted more land. Did the Crusades happen because the Pope wanted the Holy Lands? Or was it because he wanted control of the trade routes to the east? Did Alexander tear ass across the entire Middle East and Egypt because Zeus told him to? No...he wanted the land and the riches and the power.

War, murder, and slaughter is about money and power. Religion can sometimes be the excuse, but it's usually not the actual reason. If you really think no ruler has ever killed in the name of no god....you forget the god of the almighty dollar, baby and PUH-LENTY of atheists kill for that.

BTW...abolitionists used religion to argue against slavery too. Don't forget that side of the coin

 

[sealybobo]

Cherry picker. Lol.

Yes just like american slave masters used religion to control their slaves so did the Egyptian Pharaohs long before christianity.

The Greeks use to argue for Zeus and the people they caught believed in different gods.

I dont believe any ruler ever killed in the name of no god or for no god but plenty of theists kill for god.

You bring up ancient history that is debatable. How about all the Muslim theists murdering for the same god you worship?

Yes people murder in the name of God or the gods. They also murder for money or out of jealousy. In fact I would argue that most wars are about money (even the Crusades) and not religion. Did the Egyptians invade because the gods told them to? No they did it because they wanted more land. Did the Crusades happen because the Pope wanted the Holy Lands? Or was it because he wanted control of the trade routes to the east? Did Alexander tear ass across the entire Middle East and Egypt because Zeus told him to? No...he wanted the land and the riches and the power.

War, murder, and slaughter is about money and power. Religion can sometimes be the excuse, but it's usually not the actual reason. If you really think no ruler has ever killed in the name of no god....you forget the god of the almighty dollar, baby and PUH-LENTY of atheists kill for that.

BTW...abolitionists used religion to argue against slavery too. Don't forget that side of the coin

Yes a very small percent of christians understood slavery was wrong. Most didn't care.

At least you understand they use religion to manipulate and control the masses. Its why I believe it makes people stupid and is bad for us.

If you can convince people a god exists without any proof then you can convince them about just about anything else you want.

 

[BluePhantom]

Yes a very small percent of christians understood slavery was wrong. Most didn't care.

Dude that is such BS. Just because a person claims to be a part of a given faith doesn't mean they actually follow it. Islamic terrorists aren't following their faith. They are using it to justify their personal extremist agenda. People who owned saves in the United States were not following the teachings of Jesus, they were using religion to justify their actions. Sure religion can be used to manipulate people. So can Cosmopolitan magazine, MSNBC, Fox News, Family Guy, and talk radio. But that doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bath water. You can keep the baby....just change the water.

 

[sealybobo]

Yes a very small percent of christians understood slavery was wrong. Most didn't care.

Dude that is such BS. Just because a person claims to be a part of a given faith doesn't mean they actually follow it. Islamic terrorists aren't following their faith. They are using it to justify their personal extremist agenda. People who owned saves in the United States were not following the teachings of Jesus, they were using religion to justify their actions. Sure religion can be used to manipulate people. So can Cosmopolitan magazine, MSNBC, Fox News, Family Guy, and talk radio. But that doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bath water. You can keep the baby....just change the water.

What reasons do you believe a god exists created the planet or cares about you?

 

[Meriweather]

What you're not addressing is that religious belief carries with it a whole host of threats that have eternal consequences. Religions create a number of genuinely unsolvable dilemmas. The ideology/dogma purports that there is a source material that lays out the belief system. The ideology/dogma claims this source material has a level of functionality that supports that belief system as well.

The major Christian denominations (i.e., the vast majority) do not threaten other faiths (or atheists) with hell. They simply entrust those with different beliefs (or no belief) to a loving and merciful God. The majority of Jews do not even believe in hell.

It is not reasonable to go in search of a minority, splintered denomination and then broad brush the majority with minority practices and beliefs.

The foundation of Judaism and Christianity is that God loves each individual and that we are called to love God and our fellow human beings. Christianity teaches that our sins are forgiven--and that we are called to forgive our fellow humans. Orthodox Jews strive to remember/bring God's presence into every aspect of every day life.

This is a very simple foundation, and we all fall into the trap of complicating it. It starts with two simple questions? How do we love God? How do we love our fellow man? In giving sincere examples, the ancient Jews provided 613 laws. Now consider those 613 laws each prompting another question which prompted another 613 example.... As you can see, loving God, and loving and forgiving one's fellow man quickly became complicated.

It degenerates into this or something similar: "I don't believe God would torture good people in hell for an eternity because they are not of a specific faith. Therefore, I do not believe in God."

Wouldn't a more logical statement be, "God is loving and forgiving, therefore I don't believe He tortures anyone for an eternity."

 

[Tuatara]

Most atheists claim that they don't believe in gods. Tell me, do you claim that there is no invisible purple elephant living in your dresser drawer?

Misdirection is not an efficient way to advance a conversation. It even takes a backseat to atheists who make the mistake and take the tack of people believing in a God who sends plagues and natural disasters to wipe out innocent children.

To hear someone say, "I don't believe in God because I don't believe in the invisible purple elephant living in my dresser drawer," is comparable to hearing "I don't believe in marriage because dinosaurs once walked on the moon."

There are, in fact, good and intelligent reasons for not believing in God. Purple elephants don't happen to fall into the intelligent reasoning category. It's senseless. Try, "I don't believe in God, because I can't make any sense of God."

I am turning Postmodernproph's argument back on him and showing how flawed it is. It's not misdirection or a reason for atheism. Please follow the whole conversation. He also takes a non belief as a belief.

that is not my argument, therefore you have not turned it back on me......my response is I do not choose to believe in invisible purple elephants (I won't bother going into the obvious irrational contradiction of postulating something that is simultaneously invisible AND purple).......unlike atheists, I don't pretend my faith choices are based upon logical premises.....they are precisely what they are - faith choices........it is the fact that atheists pretend their faith choices are rational conclusions is what identifies them as irrational......

Yes it is exactly your argument. You said it's irrational for "one to believe there is no god" which is exactly as "one being irrational for not believing in a god". Gods's existence cannot be proven and the existence of a purple flying elephant's existence cannot be proven. (We know him to be purple because once every thousand years he reveals himself to a drunk.) At least you admit your choice for believing is not based on logic but don't you dare say atheists do the same thing.

 

[Hollie]

What you're not addressing is that religious belief carries with it a whole host of threats that have eternal consequences. Religions create a number of genuinely unsolvable dilemmas. The ideology/dogma purports that there is a source material that lays out the belief system. The ideology/dogma claims this source material has a level of functionality that supports that belief system as well.

The major Christian denominations (i.e., the vast majority) do not threaten other faiths (or atheists) with hell. They simply entrust those with different beliefs (or no belief) to a loving and merciful God. The majority of Jews do not even believe in hell.

It is not reasonable to go in search of a minority, splintered denomination and then broad brush the majority with minority practices and beliefs.

The foundation of Judaism and Christianity is that God loves each individual and that we are called to love God and our fellow human beings. Christianity teaches that our sins are forgiven--and that we are called to forgive our fellow humans. Orthodox Jews strive to remember/bring God's presence into every aspect of every day life.

This is a very simple foundation, and we all fall into the trap of complicating it. It starts with two simple questions? How do we love God? How do we love our fellow man? In giving sincere examples, the ancient Jews provided 613 laws. Now consider those 613 laws each prompting another question which prompted another 613 example.... As you can see, loving God, and loving and forgiving one's fellow man quickly became complicated.

It degenerates into this or something similar: "I don't believe God would torture good people in hell for an eternity because they are not of a specific faith. Therefore, I do not believe in God."

Wouldn't a more logical statement be, "God is loving and forgiving, therefore I don't believe He tortures anyone for an eternity."

Have you ever actually read any of the bibles? Your promotion of loving gawds is in contrast the serial mass murder carried out by those gawds.

I think a "logical" statement, (and I use that term with more than just a bit of trepidation), is that you have chosen to neuter the gawds To Najee them fit your personal version of pick and choose theism.

 

[Tuatara]

It degenerates into this or something similar: "I don't believe God would torture good people in hell for an eternity because they are not of a specific faith. Therefore, I do not believe in God."

Wouldn't a more logical statement be, "God is loving and forgiving, therefore I don't believe He tortures anyone for an eternity."

Putting on my anti-theist hat for this one. What we know about god is written in the bible. Yes people claim that he is a loving and forgiving god but what is written about him in the bible is the complete opposite.

 

[Meriweather]

Putting on my anti-theist hat for this one. What we know about god is written in the bible. Yes people claim that he is a loving and forgiving god but what is written about him in the bible is the complete opposite.

What is written in the Bible can be interpreted as the complete opposite. A common error is to forget who the author was, his intent, and the message he wanted to present to his target audience.

Bad guys do not see Superman, Batman, and Spiderman as heroes. They see them as people who cause destruction of their personal property, their finances, and their freedom.

Jews were impoverished slaves, their babies put to death, and no freedom or land of their own. The account of Exodus is how God rescued and protected this people--and led them to a land of their own. Non-Jews will read Exodus with wide eyes: God sent plagues! He destroyed entire armies who were only protecting what they considered theirs!

Just like possible villains who might read about superheroes, we forget the author's intended audience, and the message of God protection and good prevailing for the poor and enslaved, he wished to present.

We later readers--who are neither poor, enslaved, nor understand the proper context of the story--miss the truth the author wished to illustrate.

 

[Meriweather]

Have you ever actually read any of the bibles?

Not only read them, but read them in conjunction with the history, culture, and religion of those times. Sometimes to truly understand, we have to set aside the way our own time and culture has us thinking--and make the effort to walk in the shoes of those who lived in those times. Their thoughts were not our thoughts--and our thoughts are not their thoughts. In reading authors of earlier times we have to remain cognizant of:

1) Who was the author?
2) Who was his audience?
3) What is the message the author was presenting to that specific audience of that particular time?

 

[Tuatara]

Putting on my anti-theist hat for this one. What we know about god is written in the bible. Yes people claim that he is a loving and forgiving god but what is written about him in the bible is the complete opposite.

What is written in the Bible can be interpreted as the complete opposite. A common error is to forget who the author was, his intent, and the message he wanted to present to his target audience.

Bad guys do not see Superman, Batman, and Spiderman as heroes. They see them as people who cause destruction of their personal property, their finances, and their freedom.

Jews were impoverished slaves, their babies put to death, and no freedom or land of their own. The account of Exodus is how God rescued and protected this people--and led them to a land of their own. Non-Jews will read Exodus with wide eyes: God sent plagues! He destroyed entire armies who were only protecting what they considered theirs!

Just like possible villains who might read about superheroes, we forget the author's intended audience, and the message of God protection and good prevailing for the poor and enslaved, he wished to present.

We later readers--who are neither poor, enslaved, nor understand the proper context of the story--miss the truth the author wished to illustrate.

I don't know what version of the bible you are referring to or that you are trying to insinuate that non-believers are "bad guys" but I think Mr. Dawkins best sums it up here. “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

 

[sealybobo]

What you're not addressing is that religious belief carries with it a whole host of threats that have eternal consequences. Religions create a number of genuinely unsolvable dilemmas. The ideology/dogma purports that there is a source material that lays out the belief system. The ideology/dogma claims this source material has a level of functionality that supports that belief system as well.

The major Christian denominations (i.e., the vast majority) do not threaten other faiths (or atheists) with hell. They simply entrust those with different beliefs (or no belief) to a loving and merciful God. The majority of Jews do not even believe in hell.

It is not reasonable to go in search of a minority, splintered denomination and then broad brush the majority with minority practices and beliefs.

The foundation of Judaism and Christianity is that God loves each individual and that we are called to love God and our fellow human beings. Christianity teaches that our sins are forgiven--and that we are called to forgive our fellow humans. Orthodox Jews strive to remember/bring God's presence into every aspect of every day life.

This is a very simple foundation, and we all fall into the trap of complicating it. It starts with two simple questions? How do we love God? How do we love our fellow man? In giving sincere examples, the ancient Jews provided 613 laws. Now consider those 613 laws each prompting another question which prompted another 613 example.... As you can see, loving God, and loving and forgiving one's fellow man quickly became complicated.

It degenerates into this or something similar: "I don't believe God would torture good people in hell for an eternity because they are not of a specific faith. Therefore, I do not believe in God."

Wouldn't a more logical statement be, "God is loving and forgiving, therefore I don't believe He tortures anyone for an eternity."

You know I'm reading your post and realize god isnt necessary. Take all mention of god out and retype your post and I'll agree 100% with your post. It will make perfect sense. Try it. See why god isnt necessary or rational no matter how good it makes you feel and I think it holds us back and does more harm than good.

I dont mind generic nice god but that's not the god most theists talk about.

I think you arent a real christian if you cherry pick or change what the elders said. ONLY through me can you go to heaven and dont make me grab a real bible thumper to tell you its you who's also going to burn for eternity because your church is doing it wrong.

 

[sealybobo]

What you're not addressing is that religious belief carries with it a whole host of threats that have eternal consequences. Religions create a number of genuinely unsolvable dilemmas. The ideology/dogma purports that there is a source material that lays out the belief system. The ideology/dogma claims this source material has a level of functionality that supports that belief system as well.

The major Christian denominations (i.e., the vast majority) do not threaten other faiths (or atheists) with hell. They simply entrust those with different beliefs (or no belief) to a loving and merciful God. The majority of Jews do not even believe in hell.

It is not reasonable to go in search of a minority, splintered denomination and then broad brush the majority with minority practices and beliefs.

The foundation of Judaism and Christianity is that God loves each individual and that we are called to love God and our fellow human beings. Christianity teaches that our sins are forgiven--and that we are called to forgive our fellow humans. Orthodox Jews strive to remember/bring God's presence into every aspect of every day life.

This is a very simple foundation, and we all fall into the trap of complicating it. It starts with two simple questions? How do we love God? How do we love our fellow man? In giving sincere examples, the ancient Jews provided 613 laws. Now consider those 613 laws each prompting another question which prompted another 613 example.... As you can see, loving God, and loving and forgiving one's fellow man quickly became complicated.

It degenerates into this or something similar: "I don't believe God would torture good people in hell for an eternity because they are not of a specific faith. Therefore, I do not believe in God."

Wouldn't a more logical statement be, "God is loving and forgiving, therefore I don't believe He tortures anyone for an eternity."

Have you ever actually read any of the bibles? Your promotion of loving gawds is in contrast the serial mass murder carried out by those gawds.

I think a "logical" statement, (and I use that term with more than just a bit of trepidation), is that you have chosen to neuter the gawds To Najee them fit your personal version of pick and choose theism.

Back when I first started questioning they told me to read the bible so I did and I had a lot of problems with it. Then they told me to read just the thing Jesus said so I read the red letter bible and to be honest Jesus didn't say a lot of dicky things. Except for the only through me can you enter the kingdom of heaven thing. Then I decided he probably didn't say that, the corrupt churches wrote that to get people hooked. It took me awhile to realize even god is made up. But I'm there now thank god.

 

[sealybobo]

Putting on my anti-theist hat for this one. What we know about god is written in the bible. Yes people claim that he is a loving and forgiving god but what is written about him in the bible is the complete opposite.

What is written in the Bible can be interpreted as the complete opposite. A common error is to forget who the author was, his intent, and the message he wanted to present to his target audience.

Bad guys do not see Superman, Batman, and Spiderman as heroes. They see them as people who cause destruction of their personal property, their finances, and their freedom.

Jews were impoverished slaves, their babies put to death, and no freedom or land of their own. The account of Exodus is how God rescued and protected this people--and led them to a land of their own. Non-Jews will read Exodus with wide eyes: God sent plagues! He destroyed entire armies who were only protecting what they considered theirs!

Just like possible villains who might read about superheroes, we forget the author's intended audience, and the message of God protection and good prevailing for the poor and enslaved, he wished to present.

We later readers--who are neither poor, enslaved, nor understand the proper context of the story--miss the truth the author wished to illustrate.

I don't know what version of the bible you are referring to or that you are trying to insinuate that non-believers are "bad guys" but I think Mr. Dawkins best sums it up here. “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

That's the god our ancestors told us visited them.

You read any ancient holy book it becomes clear they were written by very superstitious ancient uneducated people.

Or FOR uneducated superstitious people.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't know what version of the bible you are referring to or that you are trying to insinuate that non-believers are "bad guys" but I think Mr. Dawkins best sums it up here. “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

No, atheists are not the bad guys. The point is that non-Jews and people who live in modern times have to make the effort to see from the perspective of Jews in that day and time.

 

[Meriweather]

You know I'm reading your post and realize god isnt necessary. Take all mention of god out and retype your post and I'll agree 100% with your post. It will make perfect sense. Try it. See why god isnt necessary or rational no matter how good it makes you feel and I think it holds us back and does more harm than good.

I dont mind generic nice god but that's not the god most theists talk about.

I think you arent a real christian if you cherry pick or change what the elders said. ONLY through me can you go to heaven and dont make me grab a real bible thumper to tell you its you who's also going to burn for eternity because your church is doing it wrong.

God is not necessary for what? And, are you necessary?

 

[sealybobo]

Have you ever actually read any of the bibles?

Not only read them, but read them in conjunction with the history, culture, and religion of those times. Sometimes to truly understand, we have to set aside the way our own time and culture has us thinking--and make the effort to walk in the shoes of those who lived in those times. Their thoughts were not our thoughts--and our thoughts are not their thoughts. In reading authors of earlier times we have to remain cognizant of:

1) Who was the author?
2) Who was his audience?
3) What is the message the author was presenting to that specific audience of that particular time?

The more things change the more they stay the same. We arent that much different 2000 years ago. Less science and education but we still gossiped and went to the movies. Kids still had crushes and bullies. The rich ruled and the poor struggled.

And if all churches are peddling fairy tales then we today have to start over and throw out the stories of the ancients. And question authority. That includes the church. And if their stories dont make sense then dont believe without question.

 

[sealybobo]

You know I'm reading your post and realize god isnt necessary. Take all mention of god out and retype your post and I'll agree 100% with your post. It will make perfect sense. Try it. See why god isnt necessary or rational no matter how good it makes you feel and I think it holds us back and does more harm than good.

I dont mind generic nice god but that's not the god most theists talk about.

I think you arent a real christian if you cherry pick or change what the elders said. ONLY through me can you go to heaven and dont make me grab a real bible thumper to tell you its you who's also going to burn for eternity because your church is doing it wrong.

God is not necessary for what? And, are you necessary?

Your post was good without mentioning god. God wasn't necessary for your post to be correct. Go back and read your post. I'll like it.

 

[sealybobo]

What you're not addressing is that religious belief carries with it a whole host of threats that have eternal consequences. Religions create a number of genuinely unsolvable dilemmas. The ideology/dogma purports that there is a source material that lays out the belief system. The ideology/dogma claims this source material has a level of functionality that supports that belief system as well.

The major Christian denominations (i.e., the vast majority) do not threaten other faiths (or atheists) with hell. They simply entrust those with different beliefs (or no belief) to a loving and merciful God. The majority of Jews do not even believe in hell.

It is not reasonable to go in search of a minority, splintered denomination and then broad brush the majority with minority practices and beliefs.

The foundation of Judaism and Christianity is that God loves each individual and that we are called to love God and our fellow human beings. Christianity teaches that our sins are forgiven--and that we are called to forgive our fellow humans. Orthodox Jews strive to remember/bring God's presence into every aspect of every day life.

This is a very simple foundation, and we all fall into the trap of complicating it. It starts with two simple questions? How do we love God? How do we love our fellow man? In giving sincere examples, the ancient Jews provided 613 laws. Now consider those 613 laws each prompting another question which prompted another 613 example.... As you can see, loving God, and loving and forgiving one's fellow man quickly became complicated.

It degenerates into this or something similar: "I don't believe God would torture good people in hell for an eternity because they are not of a specific faith. Therefore, I do not believe in God."

Wouldn't a more logical statement be, "God is loving and forgiving, therefore I don't believe He tortures anyone for an eternity."

From where you say we are called to love one another. I agree. Take the god talk out and I'll agree with your post. Want me to edit it so you get what I mean?

 

[sealybobo]

You know I'm reading your post and realize god isnt necessary. Take all mention of god out and retype your post and I'll agree 100% with your post. It will make perfect sense. Try it. See why god isnt necessary or rational no matter how good it makes you feel and I think it holds us back and does more harm than good.

I dont mind generic nice god but that's not the god most theists talk about.

I think you arent a real christian if you cherry pick or change what the elders said. ONLY through me can you go to heaven and dont make me grab a real bible thumper to tell you its you who's also going to burn for eternity because your church is doing it wrong.

God is not necessary for what? And, are you necessary?

If you one day realized god doesnt even exist what would change in your life? Would you not love your family or would you be sad? I would cherish every moment more realizing that this is the only life you get. And its over in a flash. But at least you werent born a cow.