Just a question about Catholics

[Gracie]

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me".

Making the golden calf while the Moses was on the mountain, statues of gods and whatnot....POPES. Cuz the pope IS worshipped like a god, right? So..isn't that worshipping something other than God Himself?

Not trying to be rude..just wondering how this....fawning...over the Pope is "different". Same as those that fall over themselves with other preachers and reverends, etc. Same thing, isn't it? Worship of some guy that claims to speak for God.

Er, no one worships the pope. No one.

To non catholics and to non church goers...it SEEMS like they do. Hence..the question.

You're wrong. No one worships the pope. Seriously.

Not wrong. Ignorant. But I'm learning.

Not really, this thread is laced with Catholic bashing bullsh*t. You should have only asked Catholics for help understanding Catholicism.

That would not serve in understanding. I asked opinions from ALL.
If the Pope decided that Tuesday would be a better day to worship, Tuesdays it would be. If the pop said all people should practice birth control, it would be so.....for catholics anyway. He looked upon as someone in authority. The masses of people who bust butt to go see him when he is visiting...the eagerness to see the smoke when one dies to find out the new one taking his place, the idol status he holds because he is a pope...that, to me, looks pretty much like worship of a human being of a certain religious persuasion. I am not catholic, so to these catholic eyes...that's how it looks to me. Doesn't make me evil or wrong, nor does it make those that don't see what I see, evil or wrong. It just "is".

So. I asked.

 

[R.D.]

That would not serve in understanding. I asked opinions from ALL.
If the Pope decided that Tuesday would be a better day to worship, Tuesdays it would be. If the pop said all people should practice birth control, it would be so.....for catholics anyway. He looked upon as someone in authority. The masses of people who bust butt to go see him when he is visiting...the eagerness to see the smoke when one dies to find out the new one taking his place, the idol status he holds because he is a pope...that, to me, looks pretty much like worship of a human being of a certain religious persuasion. I am not catholic, so to these catholic eyes...that's how it looks to me. Doesn't make me evil or wrong, nor does it make those that don't see what I see, evil or wrong. It just "is".

So. I asked.

Yes, it makes you wrong.

 

[Meriweather]

That would not serve in understanding. I asked opinions from ALL.
If the Pope decided that Tuesday would be a better day to worship, Tuesdays it would be.

This illustrates the lack of knowledge it seems many non-Catholics have about the role of the Pope. The Church celebrates the day the Lord rose. That day is Sunday, and no Pope can ever change that fact. It is not within a Pope's authority.

If the pop said all people should practice birth control, it would be so.....for catholics anyway.

Again, no. It is the Church/Body of Christ's reverence for life from conception to natural death--not a pope--that makes the decision on birth control.

Back in the 1960s, the Pope heard arguments for and against the natural aspects of the Pill as a measure for birth control. Catholics thought there was a good chance the Pill would be approved by the Church. The person who had the responsibility for deciding for or against was Pope Paul VI. The reason he could not take that step (although he was really close to it) is because he saw the natural extension of the Pill as...abortion. The Church respects life. It sees sexuality as a great gift between husbands and wives, one where if life is created, it is welcomed and cared for.

The Pill was a statement that life is not always welcome or wanted...and unwanted, unwelcome life leads to abortion.

This is why Pope Paul VI--or any Pope--did not and has not condoned artificial birth control. The Church/Body of Christ reveres life as God's greatest gift to us.

He looked upon as someone in authority. The masses of people who bust butt to go see him when he is visiting...the eagerness to see the smoke when one dies to find out the new one taking his place, the idol status he holds because he is a pope...that, to me, looks pretty much like worship of a human being of a certain religious persuasion. I am not catholic, so to these catholic eyes...that's how it looks to me. Doesn't make me evil or wrong, nor does it make those that don't see what I see, evil or wrong. It just "is".

Catholics see this a bit differently. The Church/Christ stands for and points to the ideal. The Church, made up of people, are not always ideal--and have different perspectives of what constitutes ideal. What non-Catholics may not realize is that when a difference arises (such as the Immaculate Conception) it starts at a grass roots level with committees of parishioners and priests doing research and making recommendations to the Bishop. The Bishops then study the matter further. If the Bishops cannot come to a decision, then the man who has to decide yes or no is the Pope. By this time decades have passed, and the Pope who has the responsibility of that final decision (because the Bishops cannot come to an agreement) was not the Pope when the committees, research, and prayers began.

As you see, the Pope cannot just walk in with a pet project or idea and institute it. It comes up from the Church to the Pope--not down from the Pope to the people. Every step of the way is guided by prayer.

The Church has the responsibility of holding to the ideal. But because people have different perspectives, and we want to follow Christ's prayer that his followers be one as he and the Father are one, we recognize, in times of disagreement, there has to be someone who can make the ultimate decision and mold both sides together into one.

My parish will soon be welcoming a new priest. The parish is just as interested in who this new priest will be as we were interested in the Pope. It's the news media and non-Catholics who are more interested in the pope than a new parish priest. Catholics do respect the additional responsibilities the Pope has. He represents the Church/Body of Christ.

 

[Ravi]

That would not serve in understanding. I asked opinions from ALL.
If the Pope decided that Tuesday would be a better day to worship, Tuesdays it would be. If the pop said all people should practice birth control, it would be so.....for catholics anyway. He looked upon as someone in authority. The masses of people who bust butt to go see him when he is visiting...the eagerness to see the smoke when one dies to find out the new one taking his place, the idol status he holds because he is a pope...that, to me, looks pretty much like worship of a human being of a certain religious persuasion. I am not catholic, so to these catholic eyes...that's how it looks to me. Doesn't make me evil or wrong, nor does it make those that don't see what I see, evil or wrong. It just "is".

So. I asked.

Yes, it makes you wrong.

And a bigot.

 

[Gracie]

Thank you, Meriweather. That was very informative and helpful to understand. I appreciate it.

 

[Meriweather]

Thank you, Meriweather. That was very informative and helpful to understand. I appreciate it.

You are most welcome. Since the news media treats kings, presidents, and popes much the same, it is easy to conclude that a pope must be like a king or president. He is really not. Our best Popes have followed and taken seriously Christ's words of, "The greatest among you must be the servant of all." These popes would be the first to deny they were ever great, but only worked and strove to follow in Christ's footsteps.

 

[Gracie]

I don't know much about popes...but this one seems pretty AOK from what little I have read about him in the news.

 

[ninja007]

not really- and no- we don't have to ask you; many of us were Catholics ourselves.

Some who claim to have once been Catholic are kind of like the person who says, "No one has to tell me how to sail a boat--I used to play with a toy boat when I took a bath."

There is a stark difference between Catholics who were taught by other Catholics, and former Catholics who, after they left the Church, "learned" what Catholics "believe" from non-Catholics. The two are easily identified.

I respect those who left the Catholic Church because they do not agree with what the Church actually teaches. I pity those who have to make up falsehoods about Catholic teaching to give themselves enough courage to walk away.

The weighty yoke of the RCC and Catechism is a works-based salvation to all you are entrapped in it.

Works based salvation? Shrug. What you see is discipleship. We follow Christ closely and do as he taught and commanded. "Feed the hungry...clothe the naked...walk the extra mile...repent...discern the will of God and follow it...teach..."

Perhaps you can describe to Catholics how non-Catholics follow Christ and his ways without ever lifting a finger? I would like to hear more about this no-works, no-effort discipleship that, apparently, you are so fond of.

Jesus followers and Catholics are like water and oil; they don't mix. Catholics do these works in order to obtain salvation, Christians who are saved do it because they are saved. HUGE DIFFERENCE. Now of course there ARE some RC's who are saved, despite the non-biblical, extra-biblical teachings of the church. Btw, Catholics think they are saved by their denomination. It doesn't matter what your denomination is- Jesus doesn't care. If you trust in Him alone as your Savior and not your church also...

 

[jon_berzerk]

Er, no one worships the pope. No one.

To non catholics and to non church goers...it SEEMS like they do. Hence..the question.

You're wrong. No one worships the pope. Seriously.

Not wrong. Ignorant. But I'm learning.

Not really, this thread is laced with Catholic bashing bullsh*t. You should have only asked Catholics for help understanding Catholicism.

That would not serve in understanding. I asked opinions from ALL.
If the Pope decided that Tuesday would be a better day to worship, Tuesdays it would be. If the pop said all people should practice birth control, it would be so.....for catholics anyway. He looked upon as someone in authority. The masses of people who bust butt to go see him when he is visiting...the eagerness to see the smoke when one dies to find out the new one taking his place, the idol status he holds because he is a pope...that, to me, looks pretty much like worship of a human being of a certain religious persuasion. I am not catholic, so to these catholic eyes...that's how it looks to me. Doesn't make me evil or wrong, nor does it make those that don't see what I see, evil or wrong. It just "is".

So. I asked.

isnt any day every day a good day to worship

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus followers and Catholics are like water and oil; they don't mix. Catholics do these works in order to obtain salvation, Christians who are saved do it because they are saved. HUGE DIFFERENCE. Now of course there ARE some RC's who are saved, despite the non-biblical, extra-biblical teachings of the church. Btw, Catholics think they are saved by their denomination. It doesn't matter what your denomination is- Jesus doesn't care. If you trust in Him alone as your Savior and not your church also...

Catholic Prayer: We adore you, Christ, and we bless you, because by your holy cross you have redeemed the world.

It seems quite clear that Catholics believe the world has been redeemed by Christ, and becoming a disciple of Christ is how we enter into this redemption/salvation.

Is your reasoning that people are redeemed (or "saved") without ever becoming disciples? Discipleship doesn't matter?

 

[ninja007]

Meri- the intention or desire from discipleship doesn't come from a church or creed or catechism, it comes from the Holy Spirit and Christ Born again Believers follow Jesus not in order to obtain salvation. RCism was a state religion.

 

[Meriweather]

Meri- the intention or desire from discipleship doesn't come from a church or creed or catechism, it comes from the Holy Spirit and Christ Born again Believers follow Jesus not in order to obtain salvation. RCism was a state religion.

The Catholic Church is known for proclaiming the Gospel, and apparently this is your criticism for desire for discipleship coming from the Church instead of from Christ? Let's look at that premise logically.

Where do non-Catholics learn about Christ? And please explain why this is not seen as their discipleship coming from Luther, Calvin, etc. Do non-Catholic denominations not proclaim the Gospel? Do they not have any beliefs (creeds?). Do they not have any commentaries (catechisms) on their teachings or scriptures? Do non-Catholics just pull all they say out of thin air? If it is 'out of thin air' then we begin to understand where you are getting your ridiculous falsehoods about Catholic belief: Out of thin air.

The Catholic Church proclaims the Gospel, and the Gospel, by God's grace, touches the hearts and souls of those who hear. Grace (which comes from God), and with the consent of an individual's free will, awakens a desire to become a disciple of Christ and walk in His way--which is the way of grace, salvation, and redemption.

The way some non-Catholics describe "saved" is that being "saved" happens in an instant, kind of like a birth as occurring on a specific date and time. Catholics see it a bit differently. Redemption and salvation are a way of life, not something at occurs once and then is in the past. We are ever immersed in redemption and salvation--we walk in its way, the way of Christ, the way of grace which comes from God. We are disciples of Christ, and he is our shepherd.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Jesus followers and Catholics are like water and oil; they don't mix. Catholics do these works in order to obtain salvation, Christians who are saved do it because they are saved. HUGE DIFFERENCE. Now of course there ARE some RC's who are saved, despite the non-biblical, extra-biblical teachings of the church. Btw, Catholics think they are saved by their denomination. It doesn't matter what your denomination is- Jesus doesn't care. If you trust in Him alone as your Savior and not your church also...

Catholic Prayer: We adore you, Christ, and we bless you, because by your holy cross you have redeemed the world.

It seems quite clear that Catholics believe the world has been redeemed by Christ, and becoming a disciple of Christ is how we enter into this redemption/salvation.

Is your reasoning that people are redeemed (or "saved") without ever becoming disciples? Discipleship doesn't matter?

Romans 10

9-for if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[hobelim]

What Christ spoke, Catholics believe. It is as simple as that. We can point to scripture (Cor. 10:16–17, 11:23–29; John 6:32–71.) We can point to early Christian accounts of the belief of the presence of Christ in the consecrated bread and wine. We can show how holy they regarded it, and how Catholics continued this practice instituted on the night of the Last Supper.

If, fifteen hundred years after the fact, people feel that medieval Christians were more in tune with what Christ meant and what proper practice of, "Do this in remembrance of me," should be, that is their choice. But the Catholic choice is to continue as it was in the beginning and to keep the faith as it was passed down by the Apostles.

The Roman Catholic Church did not begin until 325c.e. Th Church from its inception was never privy to 'the secrets of the kingdom of heaven' as was taught to the Apostles by Jesus in private. What was handed down by the Apostles and what was received by the Roman empire was the sword that Jesus said that he came to bring, a curse under the appearance of a cup of wine.

"I have not come to bring peace but a sword." Matthew 10:34

"From his mouth went a sharp sword with which to smite the nations." Revelation 19:15

"Take from my hand this cup of fiery wine and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them."

"Take this cup of wine and drink from it. This is a cup of my blood, the blood of the covenant."

"Just art thou, in these thy judgments, thou Holy One who art and wast; for they shed the blood of thy people and of thy prophets and thou hast given them blood to drink."

"He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; He who lifts the sword to kill, is bound by the sword to be killed."

 

[Meriweather]

The Roman Catholic Church did not begin until 325c.e. Th Church from its inception was never privy to 'the secrets of the kingdom of heaven' as was taught to the Apostles by Jesus in private. What was handed down by the Apostles and what was received by the Roman empire was the sword that Jesus said that he came to bring, a curse under the appearance of a cup of wine.

The term "Catholic Church" was first used by early Christians in the year 107. It means open and welcoming to all, and is used to this day.
Until the splintering in the 1500s, it was known as The Church. It was not until the 1500s, when other denominations began to form, it became known as the Catholic Church--the name by which it is known to this day.

Non-Catholic Christians often use the term "Roman Catholic" but this term is not found in Catholic documents referring to itself. Technically, the Roman Catholic Church is the diocese of Rome--a location, not a proper name.

Church documents, teachings, and traditions date back well before Constantine, to the time of Christ--and are still heard and practiced to this day.

 

[hobelim]

Thank you, Meriweather. That was very informative and helpful to understand. I appreciate it.

You are most welcome. Since the news media treats kings, presidents, and popes much the same, it is easy to conclude that a pope must be like a king or president. He is really not. Our best Popes have followed and taken seriously Christ's words of, "The greatest among you must be the servant of all." These popes would be the first to deny they were ever great, but only worked and strove to follow in Christ's footsteps.

The Roman Catholic Church did not begin until 325c.e. Th Church from its inception was never privy to 'the secrets of the kingdom of heaven' as was taught to the Apostles by Jesus in private. What was handed down by the Apostles and what was received by the Roman empire was the sword that Jesus said that he came to bring, a curse under the appearance of a cup of wine.

The term "Catholic Church" was first used by early Christians in the year 107. It means open and welcoming to all, and is used to this day.
Until the splintering in the 1500s, it was known as The Church. It was not until the 1500s, when other denominations began to form, it became known as the Catholic Church--the name by which it is known to this day.

Non-Catholic Christians often use the term "Roman Catholic" but this term is not found in Catholic documents referring to itself. Technically, the Roman Catholic Church is the diocese of Rome--a location, not a proper name.

Church documents, teachings, and traditions date back well before Constantine, to the time of Christ--and are still heard and practiced to this day.

No, the earliest Christians were called followers of the way, the way being the figurative way to understand and comply with the divine commands as was revealed by Jesus and practiced by his disciples and their followers way before before the year 107.

It was not until Christianity was assimilated by the Roman Empire and headed by the diocese of Rome that the office of the Papacy was created and given its power and authority from Caesar not God. By that time everyone who held the secrets to the kingdom of heaven was long ago killed by Rome and the hidden meaning behind the figurative language they used in their teachings was lost to time.



Its like Jesus said to go fuck yourself, by saying eat this, and Rome responded by creating a church and filled it with people dedicated to fucking themselves in the name of the Lord until kingdom come..

 

[Meriweather]

No, the earliest Christians were called followers of the way, the way being the figurative way to understand and comply with the divine commands as was revealed by Jesus and practiced by his disciples and their followers way before before the year 107.

The earliest Christians were a sect of Judaism, and as you say, they did describe themselves as followers of the Way, followers of Christ, and that they were open and welcoming to all (catholic). The Catholic Church still uses all this terminology.

It was not until Christianity was assimilated by the Roman Empire and headed by the diocese of Rome that the office of the Papacy was created and given its power and authority from Caesar not God. By that time everyone who held the secrets to the kingdom of heaven was long ago killed by Rome and the hidden meaning behind the figurative language they used in their teachings was lost to time.

No, there were Bishops in Rome, and ecumenical councils long before Constantine. The first, the Council of Jerusalem, is recorded in Acts, long before any of the primary figures were even known as bishops.

Do you really believe it is Constantine who holds power over Christ and the Holy Spirit? Catholics believe it is Christ and the Holy Spirit who holds the power and the Way...even over Constantine, because like a city on a hilltop, the Church could not be hidden.

 

[hobelim]

The earliest Christians were a sect of Judaism, and as you say, they did describe themselves as followers of the Way, followers of Christ, and that they were open and welcoming to all (catholic). The Catholic Church still uses all this terminology.

The Catholic Church may use this terminology but Catholics are not followers of the way, followers of the way Jesus taught and demonstrated about how to understand and apply the divine commands that results in the promise of eternal life fulfilled, in this world, before the physical body dies. According to your Church the divine commands were abolished making it impossible for adherents to the Catholic teachings to be followers of the way and impossible for them to have the life promised for compliance with the law according to the revelation of Jesus in them unless they repent and come out of their tombs however badly they may stink of putrefied flesh and corruption .

No, there were Bishops in Rome, and ecumenical councils long before Constantine. The first, the Council of Jerusalem, is recorded in Acts, long before any of the primary figures were even known as bishops.

Do you really believe it is Constantine who holds power over Christ and the Holy Spirit? Catholics believe it is Christ and the Holy Spirit who holds the power and the Way...even over Constantine, because like a city on a hilltop, the Church could not be hidden.

For reasons you may not be able to comprehend yet I do not put too much stock in what Catholics profess to believe.

What I see is the fine print and what is hidden in the professed belief that The Pope, every bishop and cardinal down to the lowliest priests and even lowlier pious and humble servants, from the time of Constantine on, are standing in the place of Jesus, who they believe to be a god, as his earthly representatives given places of authority established by the so called holy spirit, an invisible disembodied entity and coequal third of a triune god, to dispense life itself in the form of a cheap snack food as if they were a god, usurping a place that is not theirs, which amounts to idolatry however you slice it, an abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place.

 

[Meriweather]

For reasons you may not be able to comprehend yet I do not put too much stock in what Catholics profess to believe.

What I see is the fine print and what is hidden in the professed belief that The Pope, every bishop and cardinal down to the lowliest priests and even lowlier pious and humble servants, from the time of Constantine on, are standing in the place of Jesus, who they believe to be a god, as his earthly representatives given places of authority established by the so called holy spirit, an invisible disembodied entity and coequal third of a triune god, to dispense life itself in the form of a cheap snack food as if they were a god, usurping a place that is not theirs, which amounts to idolatry however you slice it, an abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place.

The great trouble here is in telling a Catholic what Catholics believe--and getting it all wrong. Until there is true understanding of what Catholics actually believe (instead of what individuals are imagining Catholics could be believing) we are not going to be able to find a common ground for meaningful discussion.

Shall we try you telling me about your beliefs about God and your relationship with Him? I think I might prefer discussing that instead of talking about misinterpretations of Catholic practices and beliefs.

 

[Newby]

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me".

Making the golden calf while the Moses was on the mountain, statues of gods and whatnot....POPES. Cuz the pope IS worshipped like a god, right? So..isn't that worshipping something other than God Himself?

Not trying to be rude..just wondering how this....fawning...over the Pope is "different". Same as those that fall over themselves with other preachers and reverends, etc. Same thing, isn't it? Worship of some guy that claims to speak for God.

Nope, you're wrong, he is not worshiped as God or even like a God. /Thread