Justice Roberts second guesses policy making decision on census, violates separation of powers

[GreenAndBlue]

So, it was constitutional for Obama to ask the question but now it's not constitutional? Seems to me the Second Section of the 14th Amendment requires a distinction to be made between citizens and non-citizens.

JWK


The Democrat Party Leadership has been angry, stupid and obnoxious ever since the Republican Party Leadership freed democrat owned slaves. ___ Author unknown

So why doesn't president Trump get the information he wants from the ACS???

A correct census helps in many ways and an incorrect census harms in many ways and does not take much logic to understand this

The GDP scores will be faulty with incorrect counts

Health research and studies with patterns and the learning would be incorrect

Should be a world law that only citizens should be counted once and travelers could be counted many times

Justice Roberts has a severe problem of not wanting a nation and world to have prosperity

The question on the census will give you an inaccurate count..

Why do you want an inaccurate census count????

Tell us.

why do you not want to know how many who live here are legal or not?

tell us...wait....

nevermind. just keep on being a pimp for the left but everyone knows your hookers are diseased.

What

So, it was constitutional for Obama to ask the question but now it's not constitutional? Seems to me the Second Section of the 14th Amendment requires a distinction to be made between citizens and non-citizens.

JWK


The Democrat Party Leadership has been angry, stupid and obnoxious ever since the Republican Party Leadership freed democrat owned slaves. ___ Author unknown

So why doesn't president Trump get the information he wants from the ACS???

A correct census helps in many ways and an incorrect census harms in many ways and does not take much logic to understand this

The GDP scores will be faulty with incorrect counts

Health research and studies with patterns and the learning would be incorrect

Should be a world law that only citizens should be counted once and travelers could be counted many times

Justice Roberts has a severe problem of not wanting a nation and world to have prosperity

The question on the census will give you an inaccurate count..

Why do you want an inaccurate census count????

Tell us.

why do you not want to know how many who live here are legal or not?

tell us...wait....

nevermind. just keep on being a pimp for the left but everyone knows your hookers are diseased.

Is it not you, who is pimping for the 'right Trumpers' without no cause or purpose?

the Census question does not identify documented immigrants from undocumented immigrants from those on Refugee status....

So, ONCE AGAIN:

What is the purpose?

We already know what the purpose to do such was from the Republican operativer. Hofeller, who planned the question to be put on to the census... Hofeller's partner in crime friend went to work for and did work for Secretary Wilbur Ross as an advisor. The exact wording used by Ross to justify the question was in Hofeller's 2017 notes on his computer that his daughter found after he died, and she turned them over to shed light on them.

Court records show that Mr. Neuman, a decades-long friend of Mr. Hofeller’s, later became an informal adviser on census issues to Mr. Ross, the commerce secretary. By that summer, a top aide to Mr. Ross was pressing the Justice Department to say that it required detailed data from a census citizenship question to better enforce the Voting Rights Act.

It was to primarily disenfranchise the citizen Hispanic voter, (in Texas to start) thru computerized data gerrymandering drawn from the census...that would be used in the new redistricting maps that are to be drawn from the 2020 census.

History of Hofeller: Dead Republican operative’s electronic records at the core of two major legal battles




Opponents of the Trump administration's plan to include a citizenship question on the 2020 U.S. census say records found on a hard drive in Hofeller's home unmask partisan intent, including language nearly identical to the Justice Department's stated justification for the question: aiding enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled Thursday that the rationale seemed contrived and sent the case back to a lower court in New York.




Hofeller's records also prompted a new court filing in North Carolina’s redistricting litigation, suggesting that Republicans lied about how long drawing new maps would take.



In Republican political circles, Hofeller earned near-legendary status as a behind-the-scenes number cruncher who used voter and election data to draw maps he believed would comply with ever-changing redistricting rules over the decades — and help his party.



Through the Republican National Committee, the National Republican Congressional Committee and later a consulting firm, Hofeller said he had analyzed and drafted district plans in more than half the states. His resume included a role in more than 30 redistricting lawsuits, where he was usually defending a map that favored Republicans or finding fault with one that boosted Democrats.



In the late 2000s, he was involved in the so-called RedMap project, a full-throttled effort to win as many state legislative seats for the GOP in 2010 as possible. That class of lawmakers would control the formulation of new district boundaries for state and federal legislative seats, cementing GOP power for a decade.



The plan worked. As the tea party helped the GOP take control of the U.S. House of Representatives, the party also flipped control of 21 state legislative chambers. The resulting maps have helped keep the GOP in power even in some states where more votes are cast for Democrats.



"They were strategic in understanding the ramifications of redistricting. Tom understood that," said Tim Storey, a redistricting expert at the National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL), who knew Hofeller for years. "There was no Tom Hofeller on the Democratic side."



The strategy weakened the political power of African Americans and Democrats, making Hofeller's work reviled among opponents who claimed it ran afoul of the Constitution.

And regarding this census, here was Hofeller's and the administration's purpose of under representing legal Hispanic voters and increasing the value of white citizen voters.

Deceased G.O.P. Strategist’s Hard Drives Reveal New Details on the Census Citizenship Question


The documents cited in the Thursday court filing include an unpublished August 2015 analysis by Mr. Hofeller, who was hired by The Washington Free Beacon, a conservative news outlet financially backed by Paul Singer, a billionaire New York hedge fund manager and major Republican donor. Mr. Hofeller’s charge was to assess the impact of drawing political maps that were not based on a state’s total population — the current practice virtually everywhere in the nation — but on a slice of that population: American citizens of voting age.

At the time, the study’s sponsor was considering whether to finance a lawsuit by conservative legal advocates that argued that counting voting-age citizens was not merely acceptable, but required by the Constitution.

Mr. Hofeller’s exhaustive analysis of Texas state legislative districts concluded that such maps “would be advantageous to Republicans and non-Hispanic whites,” and would dilute the political power of the state’s Hispanics.

The reason, he wrote, was that the maps would exclude traditionally Democratic Hispanics and their children from the population count. That would force Democratic districts to expand to meet the Constitution’s one person, one vote requirement. In turn, that would translate into fewer districts in traditionally Democratic areas, and a new opportunity for Republican mapmakers to create even stronger gerrymanders.

The strategy carried a fatal flaw, however: The detailed citizenship data that was needed to draw the maps did not exist. The only existing tally of voting-age citizens, Mr. Hofeller's study stated, came from a statistical sample of the population largely used by the Justice Department to verify that the 1965 Voting Rights Act was ensuring the voting rights of minority groups.

“Without a question on citizenship being included on the 2020 Decennial Census questionnaire,” Mr. Hofeller wrote, “the use of citizen voting age population is functionally unworkable.”

Roughly 16 months later, as President-elect Trump prepared to take office, Mr. Hofeller urged Mr. Trump’s transition team to consider adding a citizenship question to the census, the transition official responsible for census issues, Mark Neuman, said last year in a deposition in the Manhattan census lawsuit.

The above is just gibberish and not related to this simple issue on counting citizens on the census which is important to help in many ways

 

[GreenAndBlue]

Wise people has a line in the sand to use to see who are the crooks

That issue is abortion

And that proves the democrats are the crooks

Wise people don’t view abortion as the line in the sand. Wise people view the rights of others as the line in the sand.

If you would strip a woman’s right to decide whether to have a baby, and force her to give birth to a child she cannot care for, you would strip any right from anyone, if it wasn’t to your liking.

God gave women the ability to choose the right time to have a baby. You would strip her of that God-given right.

Such a person is a clear and present danger to all personal freedom.

Oh by the way The rights of others Are are not to be murdered and totally taken away forever by abortion

That just proves low logic ability that cannot know harm from help

And this proves a nation must bring a logic test for voting

 

[Erinwltr]

Roberts has been compromised

SHAME ON HIM

He just doesn't like being lied to.

 

[Erinwltr]

I dont get it. Why would you want non citizens to fill out our census. I live in a tourist area with numerous Europeans visiting, why would we want tourist, visitors, or criminal occupiers filling out our census?

Tourists and visitors to our nation don't fill out the census.

It's sent to an address. The person who lives at that address fills out the form.

Visitors and tourists don't live here so they don't fill out the form.

You know this yet you posted that ridiculous post and made a fool of yourself to every intelligent person reading this thread.

The census isn't to count all citizens of this nation. It's to count all residents and those living here. The constitution doesn't say one word about citizenship in regard to the census.

All you care about is the fact that your party is losing members at a very high rate now and see your chances of winning an election becoming harder and harder. So instead of changing your party, instead of having policies that appeal to people, you want to cheat to force your policies on a nation that doesn't want them. Which will further harm and divide our nation.

Backlash is a real bummer and it's headed your way.

You people will whine, cry and throw temper tantrums but you have only yourselves to blame.

These Europeans come here for 2-3 months and rent beach houses and get mail at these houses. Just because you are here for extended amounts of time doesnt make you a permanent resident.

I have no idea what you are talking about, Trump will walk away with this election and Im a registered Democrat.

Correct

It's outright craziness to say visitors should be counted in the census since the census is used to a lot each state it's fair share of help

Just plain crookedness and Crazyness that is about to stop quickly by the wise

Incorrect counting of people harms in many ways

A single person traveling around could be counted in many different counties and states and nations which then destroys the correct allotment

Just plain BS and craziness by the left

If you spent anytime reading the thread you would know that what you just posted is complete BS, but instead posted your lies anyway.

 

[bripat9643]

Republicans fucked themselves on this by using any excuse to justify the question and acting as if the idea of a deliberate under-count of the census never occurred to them. No one likes to be bullshitted to their face.

Wrong. You didn't get the point of the OP. It doesn't matter what their motives are. It's not the Court's job to judge motives or wisdom behind any act of government.

 

[johnwk]

And still no answer to the question, how does adding a citizenship question help in terms of apportioning representation?

It distinguishes citizens from non-citizens as required by the Second Section of the 14th Amendment.

Why was it constitutional for Obama’s Census Bureau to ask “Is this person a citizen of the United States”, and un-constitutional for today’s Census Bureau to ask the very same question? Keep in mind that Section 2 of the 14th Amendment requires the distinction between citizens and non-citizens to be made with reference to apportionment.

It appears Justice Roberts believes he is vested with a power to strike down laws and policy making decisions that do not meet his personal sense of fairness, reasonableness and justice, which in fact is second guessing our Constitution which actually requires, by Section 2 of the 14th Amendment to make a distinction between citizens and non-citizens with reference to apportionment.

Justice Roberts, who also embraced our federal government entering the states and meddling with the people’s unalienable right to make their own medical choices and decisions, needs to be held accountable for his acts of sedition and personal war against our Constitution.

JWK

"The public welfare demands that constitutional cases must be decided according to the terms of the Constitution itself, and not according to judges’ views of fairness, reasonableness, or justice." – Justice Hugo L. Black ( U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1886 - 1971) Source: Lecture, Columbia University, 1968

That doesn't answer the question since non-U.S. citizens are counted towards apportioning representatives.

Oh, but it does answer the question. Our Constitution requires the question to be asked.


A Justices’ job is not to second guess the wisdom or legitimacy of legislative acts and policy making decisions which are within the four walls of the Constitution. Its only job is to decide if such acts are within the four walls of the Constitution. And with respect to asking the question "Is this person a citizen of the United States", the fact is, the Second Section of the 14th Amendment requires the distinction to be made between citizens and non-citizens with respect to apportionment, which is why we have a census and requires the question to be asked.

JWK

 

[johnwk]

Roberts has been compromised

SHAME ON HIM

He just doesn't like being lied to.

Tough crap. His job is to uphold policy making decisions and legislation that are within the four walls of the Constitution, even if someone lies to his sorry butt, like he lied to the American People when he indicated Congress has power to enter the states and interfere with the people's unalienable right to make the own decisions and choices regarding their healthcare needs.


JWK


Obamacare by consent of the governed, Article 5, our Constitution`s amendment process. Tyranny by a majority vote in Congress or a Supreme Court's majority vote

 

[OKTexas]

Can't win them all but on this I can see his point. He was brought a bullshit question. The government claimed it was trying to protect the voting rights act but could not really say how when anyone with a TV knows about the administration's already constitutionally fraught war on illegal immigrants. They were treating the court like they are stupid. Even conservative judges do not like that.

If we don't have consistency in the courts we have no courts. The question is legal and no justification should be required. Once again the question applies to all non-citizens, not just illegals. And again you ignore the 14th Amendment. Run along hypocrite.

.

When the Courts ignore corruption, the people have no recourse. They are the last line of defense. When the courts have been corrupted as they have been by Trump the country has been corrupted.

You're full of shit, a legal question is not corrupt no matter how you try to spin it. It's been asked before without complaint. Only when Trump tries to ask it do you commies go into a tail spin. LMAO

Screw you hypocrite.

.

 

[Dragonlady]

It appears with all the noise about the question “Is this person a citizen of the United States?” we are overlooking Justice Roberts has usurped legislative power by second guessing a legitimate policy making decision.

In regard to this assumption of power Justice Stone reminds us that:

”The power of courts to declare a statute unconstitutional is subject to two guiding principles of decision which ought never to be absent from judicial consciousness. One is that courts are concerned only with the power to enact statutes, not with their wisdom. The other is that while unconstitutional exercise of power by the executive and legislative branches of the government is subject to judicial restraint, the only check upon our own exercise of power is our own sense of self-restraint. For the removal of unwise laws from the statute books appeal lies, not to the courts, but to the ballot and to the processes of democratic government.” U.S. v. Butler, 297 U.S. 1, 78-79 (1936)


Additionally, the court in Hillis v. Department of Ecology, 131 Wash. 2d 373, 932 P.2d 139 (1997) pointed out:


”Just because we [the courts] do not think the legislators have acted wisely or responsibly does not give us the right to assume their duties or to substitute our judgment for theirs.”

And, in ELDRED et al. v. ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL (2003) the court unmistakably confirmed:

…..we are not at liberty to second-guess congressional determinations and policy judgments of this order, however debatable or arguably unwise they may be…The wisdom of Congress' action, however, is not within our province to second guess.



And finally, Justice Black, quite eloquently addressed the issue as follows:

"The public welfare demands that constitutional cases must be decided according to the terms of the Constitution itself, and not according to judges' views of fairness, reasonableness, or justice." – Justice Hugo L. Black (U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1886 - 1971) Source: Lecture, Columbia University, 1968


The bottom line is, Justice Obamacare-Roberts has repeatedly violate the most fundamental cannons and principles of our constitutionally limited system of government and the fundamental rules of constitutional construction by interfering with a legitimate question being replaced on our census form . . . “Is this person a citizen of the United States?”

JWK

Without a Fifth Column Media and Yellow Journalism [ourMSM], the crisis at our southern border would never have grown to what now amounts to an outright invasion and threatens the general welfare of the United States.

Nonsense.

The decision has nothing to do with determining the constitutionality of an act of Congress.

.

Baloney. Congress delegated almost unlimited power to the Executive Office over the censes. Additionally, we are talking about a policy making decision, which is not within the courts assigned duty to second guess.

JWK

And you would be wrong. The Census is NOT the purview of the Executive branch. The numbers gathered are for the use of the Congress, in setting spending priorities, not the Executive branch.

 

[bendog]

Fake Ayn Rand brings up an interesting comparison, albeit unwittingly. With Obamacare, the admin offered two contradictory rationales for the mandate: a tax that was const under congresses taxing and spending powers, and an insurance requirement under the power to regulate commerce. Both frankly were reasonable and according to a majority of nonpartisan court watchers both were acceptable reasons. However, Roberts is a foe of increasing commerce clause power, and frankly I think the civil rights law cases based on it were "wrong," ie public accomodations. Nevertheless, congress's power to tax and spend is something court's are hands off. So long as it's rational.

With the census, the admin was obviously lying. Trump does not enforce voting rights, and saying he does is an insult to credibity. Roberts is ok with political gerrymandering, even though to do it, the gop lumps all minorites into increasingly fewer district. But they still get to vote. But still, give Roberts at least a believable lie …. like Obama just lied about the mandate is not a tax. A blind pig can see that. Presidents lie, so gtfoit.

And then Ross even contradicted the voting rights story.

At least have a lie that can stand up.

The question will be whether Roberts lets Trump have mulligan

 

[OKTexas]

It appears with all the noise about the question “Is this person a citizen of the United States?” we are overlooking Justice Roberts has usurped legislative power by second guessing a legitimate policy making decision.

In regard to this assumption of power Justice Stone reminds us that:

”The power of courts to declare a statute unconstitutional is subject to two guiding principles of decision which ought never to be absent from judicial consciousness. One is that courts are concerned only with the power to enact statutes, not with their wisdom. The other is that while unconstitutional exercise of power by the executive and legislative branches of the government is subject to judicial restraint, the only check upon our own exercise of power is our own sense of self-restraint. For the removal of unwise laws from the statute books appeal lies, not to the courts, but to the ballot and to the processes of democratic government.” U.S. v. Butler, 297 U.S. 1, 78-79 (1936)


Additionally, the court in Hillis v. Department of Ecology, 131 Wash. 2d 373, 932 P.2d 139 (1997) pointed out:


”Just because we [the courts] do not think the legislators have acted wisely or responsibly does not give us the right to assume their duties or to substitute our judgment for theirs.”

And, in ELDRED et al. v. ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL (2003) the court unmistakably confirmed:

…..we are not at liberty to second-guess congressional determinations and policy judgments of this order, however debatable or arguably unwise they may be…The wisdom of Congress' action, however, is not within our province to second guess.



And finally, Justice Black, quite eloquently addressed the issue as follows:

"The public welfare demands that constitutional cases must be decided according to the terms of the Constitution itself, and not according to judges' views of fairness, reasonableness, or justice." – Justice Hugo L. Black (U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1886 - 1971) Source: Lecture, Columbia University, 1968


The bottom line is, Justice Obamacare-Roberts has repeatedly violate the most fundamental cannons and principles of our constitutionally limited system of government and the fundamental rules of constitutional construction by interfering with a legitimate question being replaced on our census form . . . “Is this person a citizen of the United States?”

JWK

Without a Fifth Column Media and Yellow Journalism [ourMSM], the crisis at our southern border would never have grown to what now amounts to an outright invasion and threatens the general welfare of the United States.

Nonsense.

The decision has nothing to do with determining the constitutionality of an act of Congress.

.

Baloney. Congress delegated almost unlimited power to the Executive Office over the censes. Additionally, we are talking about a policy making decision, which is not within the courts assigned duty to second guess.

JWK

And you would be wrong. The Census is NOT the purview of the Executive branch. The numbers gathered are for the use of the Congress, in setting spending priorities, not the Executive branch.

The conduct and tabulation of census data is the purview of the executive branch. That data is used by every level of government for various purposes. But the primary purpose of the census is to determine the allocation of representatives throughout the US.

.

 

[Flopper]

Nice reply but it is totally irrelevant to my post.

Of course it's relevant... Misspelled, but relevant.

You suggest that an official government function should be limited because it might result in criminals either falsifying official documents or ignoring those documents because they don't wish to be caught committing a crime.

First of all, the purpose of census is to count the number of people who reside in each state. That includes everyone, citizens, legal and illegal aliens, students here of student visas, people with work visas, people on vacations form other countries, criminals in institutions, the homeless, residents temporarily in other locations, even people in ICE detention camps. If they are human and in the US, they are to be counted. That is what the census statues require as well as the Constitution. Any other questions asked are for statistical purposes.

Second, a census is constructed such that it will not discourage people from responding which would be contrary to the purpose of census. The purpose of the census is to count every one in each state. That is why the census bureau constructs a very simple non-threatening document that is likely to get most responses.

The census bureau does a number of surveys each year asking questions on many subject. Any time questions are asked about citizenship, response are low. Therefore it we want maximum number of responses, we do not ask questions about citizenship. Citizenship questions should be asked on surveys, not the census.

Wrong dead wrong


That system counts citizens of other nations


Which proves its totally BS


World populations would get counted totally wrong and learning would be stopped from counting wrong


How can there be learning if people are counted more than onece

Research on what brings health harm would fall apart with incorrect counting

Anyone like above that says counting vacationers is flat nuts and spewing total BS

Humanity needs correct counts to help understand many issues. Covering that up is outrageously corrupt

Another way to see how this is total BS is if a person is in New York and a census taker comes by and asks how many people is in the house... He gets that number and gives New York another person and then that person flies to Florida and a census taker asks how many in the house and the New Yorker is there and gets counted twice once for New York and another for Florida

This just shows how crooked the democrats and deep state people are

Total liars

The census asked who is living in the domicile on April 1, 2020. In your example, if the person is living in New York on April 1st, he will be counted as a resident of New York. If he moves to Florida after April 1st, he will not be counted. The goal of the census is count every one but to count them only once and in the domicile that they lived in on the census date.

This BS and the Epstein scandal proves the democrats are the most corrupt group of people in human history and now they are caught and are going down

And how does that relate to Justice Roberts or the Census.

 

[Flopper]

Fake Ayn Rand brings up an interesting comparison, albeit unwittingly. With Obamacare, the admin offered two contradictory rationales for the mandate: a tax that was const under congresses taxing and spending powers, and an insurance requirement under the power to regulate commerce. Both frankly were reasonable and according to a majority of nonpartisan court watchers both were acceptable reasons. However, Roberts is a foe of increasing commerce clause power, and frankly I think the civil rights law cases based on it were "wrong," ie public accomodations. Nevertheless, congress's power to tax and spend is something court's are hands off. So long as it's rational.

With the census, the admin was obviously lying. Trump does not enforce voting rights, and saying he does is an insult to credibity. Roberts is ok with political gerrymandering, even though to do it, the gop lumps all minorites into increasingly fewer district. But they still get to vote. But still, give Roberts at least a believable lie …. like Obama just lied about the mandate is not a tax. A blind pig can see that. Presidents lie, so gtfoit.

And then Ross even contradicted the voting rights story.

At least have a lie that can stand up.

The question will be whether Roberts lets Trump have mulligan

In the long run, I don't think it will make a big difference in regard to representation nor distribution of federal funds. Families with illegal immigrants don't really pay that much attention to the census. However from a strictly philosophical point, I think it is wrong to subvert the primary purpose of the census which is to count everyone by asking questions likely to lower responses.

As far as collection of citizenship information, surveys of statistically representative areas are done by the census bureau every year or so between the general censuses for statistical purposes. This is the way it should be done because these surveys do no effect representation in congress nor federal fund distribution.

 

[Flopper]

So why doesn't president Trump get the information he wants from the ACS???

You do not comprehend the 14th amendment, at all!!!!

It is a very, very small sampling.


The bottom line question is, why was it constitutional for Obama's Census Bureau to ask "Is this person a citizen of the United States", and un-constitutional for today's Census Bureau to ask the very same question? Keep in mind that Section 2 of the 14th Amendment requires the distinction between citizens and non-citizens to be made with reference to apportionment.


It appears Justice Roberts believes he is vested with a power to strike down laws and policy making decisions that do not meet his personal sense of fairness, reasonableness and justice, which in fact is second guessing our Constitution which actually requires, by Section 2 of the 14th Amendment to make a distinction between citizens and non-citizens with reference to apportionment.


Justice Roberts, who also embraced our federal government entering the states and meddling with the people's unalienable right to make their own medical choices and decisions, needs to be held accountable for his acts of sedition and personal war against our Constitution.


JWK

"The public welfare demands that constitutional cases must be decided according to the terms of the Constitution itself, and not according to judges' views of fairness, reasonableness, or justice." -- Justice Hugo L. Black ( U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1886 - 1971) Source: Lecture, Columbia University, 1968

Anytime you ask the question whether in the census or just a survey you're going to lower responses. If you ask the question in surveys, you will get some statistical error but statisticians know how to correct the error. However, if you ask the question in the general census, you may effect representation in congress and federal fund distribution. This is not only a more serious problem but is where it becomes a constitutional issue because the constitution requires a count of all people and the census act is quite clear that the purpose of the census is to count each and every person.

 

[Flopper]

So why doesn't president Trump get the information he wants from the ACS???

A correct census helps in many ways and an incorrect census harms in many ways and does not take much logic to understand this

The GDP scores will be faulty with incorrect counts

Health research and studies with patterns and the learning would be incorrect

Should be a world law that only citizens should be counted once and travelers could be counted many times

Justice Roberts has a severe problem of not wanting a nation and world to have prosperity

The question on the census will give you an inaccurate count..

Why do you want an inaccurate census count????

Tell us.

why do you not want to know how many who live here are legal or not?

tell us...wait....

nevermind. just keep on being a pimp for the left but everyone knows your hookers are diseased.

Explain how adding the citizenship question reveals the legal residency status of non-U.S. citizens?

That statement is a foolish statement designed to fool by making it seem that is a legitimate question

The point is not the count of other nations citizens .. The census count is just for this nation and has no bearing on who the non citizens are or from

Just a foolish statement that has no bearing on this question of citizens on the census

We need to know correct data for many reasons in order to progress correctly

It is far more important to have the correct count for determining representation in congress and fund allocation as required by the constitution than a more accurate count of non-citizens in the country. We have plenty of survey information about non-citizenship.

 

[Flopper]

So why doesn't president Trump get the information he wants from the ACS???

A correct census helps in many ways and an incorrect census harms in many ways and does not take much logic to understand this

The GDP scores will be faulty with incorrect counts

Health research and studies with patterns and the learning would be incorrect

Should be a world law that only citizens should be counted once and travelers could be counted many times

Justice Roberts has a severe problem of not wanting a nation and world to have prosperity

The question on the census will give you an inaccurate count..

Why do you want an inaccurate census count????

Tell us.

why do you not want to know how many who live here are legal or not?

tell us...wait....

nevermind. just keep on being a pimp for the left but everyone knows your hookers are diseased.

What

So why doesn't president Trump get the information he wants from the ACS???

A correct census helps in many ways and an incorrect census harms in many ways and does not take much logic to understand this

The GDP scores will be faulty with incorrect counts

Health research and studies with patterns and the learning would be incorrect

Should be a world law that only citizens should be counted once and travelers could be counted many times

Justice Roberts has a severe problem of not wanting a nation and world to have prosperity

The question on the census will give you an inaccurate count..

Why do you want an inaccurate census count????

Tell us.

why do you not want to know how many who live here are legal or not?

tell us...wait....

nevermind. just keep on being a pimp for the left but everyone knows your hookers are diseased.

Is it not you, who is pimping for the 'right Trumpers' without no cause or purpose?

the Census question does not identify documented immigrants from undocumented immigrants from those on Refugee status....

So, ONCE AGAIN:

What is the purpose?

We already know what the purpose to do such was from the Republican operativer. Hofeller, who planned the question to be put on to the census... Hofeller's partner in crime friend went to work for and did work for Secretary Wilbur Ross as an advisor. The exact wording used by Ross to justify the question was in Hofeller's 2017 notes on his computer that his daughter found after he died, and she turned them over to shed light on them.

Court records show that Mr. Neuman, a decades-long friend of Mr. Hofeller’s, later became an informal adviser on census issues to Mr. Ross, the commerce secretary. By that summer, a top aide to Mr. Ross was pressing the Justice Department to say that it required detailed data from a census citizenship question to better enforce the Voting Rights Act.

It was to primarily disenfranchise the citizen Hispanic voter, (in Texas to start) thru computerized data gerrymandering drawn from the census...that would be used in the new redistricting maps that are to be drawn from the 2020 census.

History of Hofeller: Dead Republican operative’s electronic records at the core of two major legal battles




Opponents of the Trump administration's plan to include a citizenship question on the 2020 U.S. census say records found on a hard drive in Hofeller's home unmask partisan intent, including language nearly identical to the Justice Department's stated justification for the question: aiding enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled Thursday that the rationale seemed contrived and sent the case back to a lower court in New York.




Hofeller's records also prompted a new court filing in North Carolina’s redistricting litigation, suggesting that Republicans lied about how long drawing new maps would take.



In Republican political circles, Hofeller earned near-legendary status as a behind-the-scenes number cruncher who used voter and election data to draw maps he believed would comply with ever-changing redistricting rules over the decades — and help his party.



Through the Republican National Committee, the National Republican Congressional Committee and later a consulting firm, Hofeller said he had analyzed and drafted district plans in more than half the states. His resume included a role in more than 30 redistricting lawsuits, where he was usually defending a map that favored Republicans or finding fault with one that boosted Democrats.



In the late 2000s, he was involved in the so-called RedMap project, a full-throttled effort to win as many state legislative seats for the GOP in 2010 as possible. That class of lawmakers would control the formulation of new district boundaries for state and federal legislative seats, cementing GOP power for a decade.



The plan worked. As the tea party helped the GOP take control of the U.S. House of Representatives, the party also flipped control of 21 state legislative chambers. The resulting maps have helped keep the GOP in power even in some states where more votes are cast for Democrats.



"They were strategic in understanding the ramifications of redistricting. Tom understood that," said Tim Storey, a redistricting expert at the National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL), who knew Hofeller for years. "There was no Tom Hofeller on the Democratic side."



The strategy weakened the political power of African Americans and Democrats, making Hofeller's work reviled among opponents who claimed it ran afoul of the Constitution.

And regarding this census, here was Hofeller's and the administration's purpose of under representing legal Hispanic voters and increasing the value of white citizen voters.

Deceased G.O.P. Strategist’s Hard Drives Reveal New Details on the Census Citizenship Question


The documents cited in the Thursday court filing include an unpublished August 2015 analysis by Mr. Hofeller, who was hired by The Washington Free Beacon, a conservative news outlet financially backed by Paul Singer, a billionaire New York hedge fund manager and major Republican donor. Mr. Hofeller’s charge was to assess the impact of drawing political maps that were not based on a state’s total population — the current practice virtually everywhere in the nation — but on a slice of that population: American citizens of voting age.

At the time, the study’s sponsor was considering whether to finance a lawsuit by conservative legal advocates that argued that counting voting-age citizens was not merely acceptable, but required by the Constitution.

Mr. Hofeller’s exhaustive analysis of Texas state legislative districts concluded that such maps “would be advantageous to Republicans and non-Hispanic whites,” and would dilute the political power of the state’s Hispanics.

The reason, he wrote, was that the maps would exclude traditionally Democratic Hispanics and their children from the population count. That would force Democratic districts to expand to meet the Constitution’s one person, one vote requirement. In turn, that would translate into fewer districts in traditionally Democratic areas, and a new opportunity for Republican mapmakers to create even stronger gerrymanders.

The strategy carried a fatal flaw, however: The detailed citizenship data that was needed to draw the maps did not exist. The only existing tally of voting-age citizens, Mr. Hofeller's study stated, came from a statistical sample of the population largely used by the Justice Department to verify that the 1965 Voting Rights Act was ensuring the voting rights of minority groups.

“Without a question on citizenship being included on the 2020 Decennial Census questionnaire,” Mr. Hofeller wrote, “the use of citizen voting age population is functionally unworkable.”

Roughly 16 months later, as President-elect Trump prepared to take office, Mr. Hofeller urged Mr. Trump’s transition team to consider adding a citizenship question to the census, the transition official responsible for census issues, Mark Neuman, said last year in a deposition in the Manhattan census lawsuit.

The above is just gibberish and not related to this simple issue on counting citizens on the census which is important to help in many ways

The purpose of the census and a constitutional requirement is that we count everyone, not citizens.

 

[GreenAndBlue]

A correct census helps in many ways and an incorrect census harms in many ways and does not take much logic to understand this

The GDP scores will be faulty with incorrect counts

Health research and studies with patterns and the learning would be incorrect

Should be a world law that only citizens should be counted once and travelers could be counted many times

Justice Roberts has a severe problem of not wanting a nation and world to have prosperity

The question on the census will give you an inaccurate count..

Why do you want an inaccurate census count????

Tell us.

why do you not want to know how many who live here are legal or not?

tell us...wait....

nevermind. just keep on being a pimp for the left but everyone knows your hookers are diseased.

What

A correct census helps in many ways and an incorrect census harms in many ways and does not take much logic to understand this

The GDP scores will be faulty with incorrect counts

Health research and studies with patterns and the learning would be incorrect

Should be a world law that only citizens should be counted once and travelers could be counted many times

Justice Roberts has a severe problem of not wanting a nation and world to have prosperity

The question on the census will give you an inaccurate count..

Why do you want an inaccurate census count????

Tell us.

why do you not want to know how many who live here are legal or not?

tell us...wait....

nevermind. just keep on being a pimp for the left but everyone knows your hookers are diseased.

Is it not you, who is pimping for the 'right Trumpers' without no cause or purpose?

the Census question does not identify documented immigrants from undocumented immigrants from those on Refugee status....

So, ONCE AGAIN:

What is the purpose?

We already know what the purpose to do such was from the Republican operativer. Hofeller, who planned the question to be put on to the census... Hofeller's partner in crime friend went to work for and did work for Secretary Wilbur Ross as an advisor. The exact wording used by Ross to justify the question was in Hofeller's 2017 notes on his computer that his daughter found after he died, and she turned them over to shed light on them.

Court records show that Mr. Neuman, a decades-long friend of Mr. Hofeller’s, later became an informal adviser on census issues to Mr. Ross, the commerce secretary. By that summer, a top aide to Mr. Ross was pressing the Justice Department to say that it required detailed data from a census citizenship question to better enforce the Voting Rights Act.

It was to primarily disenfranchise the citizen Hispanic voter, (in Texas to start) thru computerized data gerrymandering drawn from the census...that would be used in the new redistricting maps that are to be drawn from the 2020 census.

History of Hofeller: Dead Republican operative’s electronic records at the core of two major legal battles




Opponents of the Trump administration's plan to include a citizenship question on the 2020 U.S. census say records found on a hard drive in Hofeller's home unmask partisan intent, including language nearly identical to the Justice Department's stated justification for the question: aiding enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled Thursday that the rationale seemed contrived and sent the case back to a lower court in New York.




Hofeller's records also prompted a new court filing in North Carolina’s redistricting litigation, suggesting that Republicans lied about how long drawing new maps would take.



In Republican political circles, Hofeller earned near-legendary status as a behind-the-scenes number cruncher who used voter and election data to draw maps he believed would comply with ever-changing redistricting rules over the decades — and help his party.



Through the Republican National Committee, the National Republican Congressional Committee and later a consulting firm, Hofeller said he had analyzed and drafted district plans in more than half the states. His resume included a role in more than 30 redistricting lawsuits, where he was usually defending a map that favored Republicans or finding fault with one that boosted Democrats.



In the late 2000s, he was involved in the so-called RedMap project, a full-throttled effort to win as many state legislative seats for the GOP in 2010 as possible. That class of lawmakers would control the formulation of new district boundaries for state and federal legislative seats, cementing GOP power for a decade.



The plan worked. As the tea party helped the GOP take control of the U.S. House of Representatives, the party also flipped control of 21 state legislative chambers. The resulting maps have helped keep the GOP in power even in some states where more votes are cast for Democrats.



"They were strategic in understanding the ramifications of redistricting. Tom understood that," said Tim Storey, a redistricting expert at the National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL), who knew Hofeller for years. "There was no Tom Hofeller on the Democratic side."



The strategy weakened the political power of African Americans and Democrats, making Hofeller's work reviled among opponents who claimed it ran afoul of the Constitution.

And regarding this census, here was Hofeller's and the administration's purpose of under representing legal Hispanic voters and increasing the value of white citizen voters.

Deceased G.O.P. Strategist’s Hard Drives Reveal New Details on the Census Citizenship Question


The documents cited in the Thursday court filing include an unpublished August 2015 analysis by Mr. Hofeller, who was hired by The Washington Free Beacon, a conservative news outlet financially backed by Paul Singer, a billionaire New York hedge fund manager and major Republican donor. Mr. Hofeller’s charge was to assess the impact of drawing political maps that were not based on a state’s total population — the current practice virtually everywhere in the nation — but on a slice of that population: American citizens of voting age.

At the time, the study’s sponsor was considering whether to finance a lawsuit by conservative legal advocates that argued that counting voting-age citizens was not merely acceptable, but required by the Constitution.

Mr. Hofeller’s exhaustive analysis of Texas state legislative districts concluded that such maps “would be advantageous to Republicans and non-Hispanic whites,” and would dilute the political power of the state’s Hispanics.

The reason, he wrote, was that the maps would exclude traditionally Democratic Hispanics and their children from the population count. That would force Democratic districts to expand to meet the Constitution’s one person, one vote requirement. In turn, that would translate into fewer districts in traditionally Democratic areas, and a new opportunity for Republican mapmakers to create even stronger gerrymanders.

The strategy carried a fatal flaw, however: The detailed citizenship data that was needed to draw the maps did not exist. The only existing tally of voting-age citizens, Mr. Hofeller's study stated, came from a statistical sample of the population largely used by the Justice Department to verify that the 1965 Voting Rights Act was ensuring the voting rights of minority groups.

“Without a question on citizenship being included on the 2020 Decennial Census questionnaire,” Mr. Hofeller wrote, “the use of citizen voting age population is functionally unworkable.”

Roughly 16 months later, as President-elect Trump prepared to take office, Mr. Hofeller urged Mr. Trump’s transition team to consider adding a citizenship question to the census, the transition official responsible for census issues, Mark Neuman, said last year in a deposition in the Manhattan census lawsuit.

The above is just gibberish and not related to this simple issue on counting citizens on the census which is important to help in many ways

The purpose of the census and a constitutional requirement is that we count everyone, not citizens.

Wrong Dead Wrong

The purpose is to count every citizen

The world census is to count everyone
And no one to be counted more than once and counted only once in their home nation

Only with counting citizens can stop the abuse of many counts for one person. !!!

 

[Faun]

And still no answer to the question, how does adding a citizenship question help in terms of apportioning representation?

It distinguishes citizens from non-citizens as required by the Second Section of the 14th Amendment.

Why was it constitutional for Obama’s Census Bureau to ask “Is this person a citizen of the United States”, and un-constitutional for today’s Census Bureau to ask the very same question? Keep in mind that Section 2 of the 14th Amendment requires the distinction between citizens and non-citizens to be made with reference to apportionment.

It appears Justice Roberts believes he is vested with a power to strike down laws and policy making decisions that do not meet his personal sense of fairness, reasonableness and justice, which in fact is second guessing our Constitution which actually requires, by Section 2 of the 14th Amendment to make a distinction between citizens and non-citizens with reference to apportionment.

Justice Roberts, who also embraced our federal government entering the states and meddling with the people’s unalienable right to make their own medical choices and decisions, needs to be held accountable for his acts of sedition and personal war against our Constitution.

JWK

"The public welfare demands that constitutional cases must be decided according to the terms of the Constitution itself, and not according to judges’ views of fairness, reasonableness, or justice." – Justice Hugo L. Black ( U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1886 - 1971) Source: Lecture, Columbia University, 1968

That doesn't answer the question since non-U.S. citizens are counted towards apportioning representatives.

Oh, but it does answer the question. Our Constitution requires the question to be asked.


A Justices’ job is not to second guess the wisdom or legitimacy of legislative acts and policy making decisions which are within the four walls of the Constitution. Its only job is to decide if such acts are within the four walls of the Constitution. And with respect to asking the question "Is this person a citizen of the United States", the fact is, the Second Section of the 14th Amendment requires the distinction to be made between citizens and non-citizens with respect to apportionment, which is why we have a census and requires the question to be asked.

JWK

It doesn't answer the question.

Pointing to the part of the second section which states disenfranchised voters (i.e., citizens) shout not be counted; cannot be ascertained by simply asking if they're U.S. citizens. Therefore, there is no point in asking that if the goal is to determine how many citizens should not be counted because they're disenfranchised.

 

[johnwk]

It appears with all the noise about the question “Is this person a citizen of the United States?” we are overlooking Justice Roberts has usurped legislative power by second guessing a legitimate policy making decision.

In regard to this assumption of power Justice Stone reminds us that:

”The power of courts to declare a statute unconstitutional is subject to two guiding principles of decision which ought never to be absent from judicial consciousness. One is that courts are concerned only with the power to enact statutes, not with their wisdom. The other is that while unconstitutional exercise of power by the executive and legislative branches of the government is subject to judicial restraint, the only check upon our own exercise of power is our own sense of self-restraint. For the removal of unwise laws from the statute books appeal lies, not to the courts, but to the ballot and to the processes of democratic government.” U.S. v. Butler, 297 U.S. 1, 78-79 (1936)


Additionally, the court in Hillis v. Department of Ecology, 131 Wash. 2d 373, 932 P.2d 139 (1997) pointed out:


”Just because we [the courts] do not think the legislators have acted wisely or responsibly does not give us the right to assume their duties or to substitute our judgment for theirs.”

And, in ELDRED et al. v. ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL (2003) the court unmistakably confirmed:

…..we are not at liberty to second-guess congressional determinations and policy judgments of this order, however debatable or arguably unwise they may be…The wisdom of Congress' action, however, is not within our province to second guess.



And finally, Justice Black, quite eloquently addressed the issue as follows:

"The public welfare demands that constitutional cases must be decided according to the terms of the Constitution itself, and not according to judges' views of fairness, reasonableness, or justice." – Justice Hugo L. Black (U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1886 - 1971) Source: Lecture, Columbia University, 1968


The bottom line is, Justice Obamacare-Roberts has repeatedly violate the most fundamental cannons and principles of our constitutionally limited system of government and the fundamental rules of constitutional construction by interfering with a legitimate question being replaced on our census form . . . “Is this person a citizen of the United States?”

JWK

Without a Fifth Column Media and Yellow Journalism [ourMSM], the crisis at our southern border would never have grown to what now amounts to an outright invasion and threatens the general welfare of the United States.

Nonsense.

The decision has nothing to do with determining the constitutionality of an act of Congress.

.

Baloney. Congress delegated almost unlimited power to the Executive Office over the censes. Additionally, we are talking about a policy making decision, which is not within the courts assigned duty to second guess.

JWK

And you would be wrong. The Census is NOT the purview of the Executive branch. The numbers gathered are for the use of the Congress, in setting spending priorities, not the Executive branch.

My goodness. You don't even know the U.S. Census Bureau is part of the Commerce
Department, and the Department of Commerce acts under the Executive Office.

JWK

 

[Cosmos]

A correct census helps in many ways and an incorrect census harms in many ways and does not take much logic to understand this

The GDP scores will be faulty with incorrect counts

Health research and studies with patterns and the learning would be incorrect

Should be a world law that only citizens should be counted once and travelers could be counted many times

Justice Roberts has a severe problem of not wanting a nation and world to have prosperity

The question on the census will give you an inaccurate count..

Why do you want an inaccurate census count????

Tell us.

why do you not want to know how many who live here are legal or not?

tell us...wait....

nevermind. just keep on being a pimp for the left but everyone knows your hookers are diseased.

What

A correct census helps in many ways and an incorrect census harms in many ways and does not take much logic to understand this

The GDP scores will be faulty with incorrect counts

Health research and studies with patterns and the learning would be incorrect

Should be a world law that only citizens should be counted once and travelers could be counted many times

Justice Roberts has a severe problem of not wanting a nation and world to have prosperity

The question on the census will give you an inaccurate count..

Why do you want an inaccurate census count????

Tell us.

why do you not want to know how many who live here are legal or not?

tell us...wait....

nevermind. just keep on being a pimp for the left but everyone knows your hookers are diseased.

Is it not you, who is pimping for the 'right Trumpers' without no cause or purpose?

the Census question does not identify documented immigrants from undocumented immigrants from those on Refugee status....

So, ONCE AGAIN:

What is the purpose?

We already know what the purpose to do such was from the Republican operativer. Hofeller, who planned the question to be put on to the census... Hofeller's partner in crime friend went to work for and did work for Secretary Wilbur Ross as an advisor. The exact wording used by Ross to justify the question was in Hofeller's 2017 notes on his computer that his daughter found after he died, and she turned them over to shed light on them.

Court records show that Mr. Neuman, a decades-long friend of Mr. Hofeller’s, later became an informal adviser on census issues to Mr. Ross, the commerce secretary. By that summer, a top aide to Mr. Ross was pressing the Justice Department to say that it required detailed data from a census citizenship question to better enforce the Voting Rights Act.

It was to primarily disenfranchise the citizen Hispanic voter, (in Texas to start) thru computerized data gerrymandering drawn from the census...that would be used in the new redistricting maps that are to be drawn from the 2020 census.

History of Hofeller: Dead Republican operative’s electronic records at the core of two major legal battles




Opponents of the Trump administration's plan to include a citizenship question on the 2020 U.S. census say records found on a hard drive in Hofeller's home unmask partisan intent, including language nearly identical to the Justice Department's stated justification for the question: aiding enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled Thursday that the rationale seemed contrived and sent the case back to a lower court in New York.




Hofeller's records also prompted a new court filing in North Carolina’s redistricting litigation, suggesting that Republicans lied about how long drawing new maps would take.



In Republican political circles, Hofeller earned near-legendary status as a behind-the-scenes number cruncher who used voter and election data to draw maps he believed would comply with ever-changing redistricting rules over the decades — and help his party.



Through the Republican National Committee, the National Republican Congressional Committee and later a consulting firm, Hofeller said he had analyzed and drafted district plans in more than half the states. His resume included a role in more than 30 redistricting lawsuits, where he was usually defending a map that favored Republicans or finding fault with one that boosted Democrats.



In the late 2000s, he was involved in the so-called RedMap project, a full-throttled effort to win as many state legislative seats for the GOP in 2010 as possible. That class of lawmakers would control the formulation of new district boundaries for state and federal legislative seats, cementing GOP power for a decade.



The plan worked. As the tea party helped the GOP take control of the U.S. House of Representatives, the party also flipped control of 21 state legislative chambers. The resulting maps have helped keep the GOP in power even in some states where more votes are cast for Democrats.



"They were strategic in understanding the ramifications of redistricting. Tom understood that," said Tim Storey, a redistricting expert at the National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL), who knew Hofeller for years. "There was no Tom Hofeller on the Democratic side."



The strategy weakened the political power of African Americans and Democrats, making Hofeller's work reviled among opponents who claimed it ran afoul of the Constitution.

And regarding this census, here was Hofeller's and the administration's purpose of under representing legal Hispanic voters and increasing the value of white citizen voters.

Deceased G.O.P. Strategist’s Hard Drives Reveal New Details on the Census Citizenship Question


The documents cited in the Thursday court filing include an unpublished August 2015 analysis by Mr. Hofeller, who was hired by The Washington Free Beacon, a conservative news outlet financially backed by Paul Singer, a billionaire New York hedge fund manager and major Republican donor. Mr. Hofeller’s charge was to assess the impact of drawing political maps that were not based on a state’s total population — the current practice virtually everywhere in the nation — but on a slice of that population: American citizens of voting age.

At the time, the study’s sponsor was considering whether to finance a lawsuit by conservative legal advocates that argued that counting voting-age citizens was not merely acceptable, but required by the Constitution.

Mr. Hofeller’s exhaustive analysis of Texas state legislative districts concluded that such maps “would be advantageous to Republicans and non-Hispanic whites,” and would dilute the political power of the state’s Hispanics.

The reason, he wrote, was that the maps would exclude traditionally Democratic Hispanics and their children from the population count. That would force Democratic districts to expand to meet the Constitution’s one person, one vote requirement. In turn, that would translate into fewer districts in traditionally Democratic areas, and a new opportunity for Republican mapmakers to create even stronger gerrymanders.

The strategy carried a fatal flaw, however: The detailed citizenship data that was needed to draw the maps did not exist. The only existing tally of voting-age citizens, Mr. Hofeller's study stated, came from a statistical sample of the population largely used by the Justice Department to verify that the 1965 Voting Rights Act was ensuring the voting rights of minority groups.

“Without a question on citizenship being included on the 2020 Decennial Census questionnaire,” Mr. Hofeller wrote, “the use of citizen voting age population is functionally unworkable.”

Roughly 16 months later, as President-elect Trump prepared to take office, Mr. Hofeller urged Mr. Trump’s transition team to consider adding a citizenship question to the census, the transition official responsible for census issues, Mark Neuman, said last year in a deposition in the Manhattan census lawsuit.

The above is just gibberish and not related to this simple issue on counting citizens on the census which is important to help in many ways

The purpose of the census and a constitutional requirement is that we count everyone, not citizens.

The question does not preclude anyone from being counted. All they have to do is fill out the form.