Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

[kaz]

I agree, don't attack someone over a verbal confrontation; however, if some kook is in my wife's face screaming at her........I might make a mistake in the heat of the moment.

Not in this case.
The guy was standing a good five feet away from the car clearly indicating his wasnt going to get violent.
Had he been all up in her face I could see it.

Ditto for the shooting

He shoved the old man to the ground violently.
Thats about as in your face as you can get.
Tough case...personally I wouldnt have shot the dude just to avoid the potential legal ramifications being in Florida or not.
But then I wouldnt have attacked an old man either.

Who knows,maybe the guy said something that made the guy think it was in his best interest to cap the guy. He didnt seem inclined to shoot at first.

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

I was taught not to park in a handicap zone.

OK, then he deserved to get shot. You win

 

[OODA_Loop]

I am a CCW holder in Florida and I know the law. It will take some masterful lawyering, on the part of his defense attorney to keep him from heavy punishment.

He is not being charged, SYG.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Not in this case.
The guy was standing a good five feet away from the car clearly indicating his wasnt going to get violent.
Had he been all up in her face I could see it.

Ditto for the shooting

He shoved the old man to the ground violently.
Thats about as in your face as you can get.
Tough case...personally I wouldnt have shot the dude just to avoid the potential legal ramifications being in Florida or not.
But then I wouldnt have attacked an old man either.

Who knows,maybe the guy said something that made the guy think it was in his best interest to cap the guy. He didnt seem inclined to shoot at first.

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

The guy was at least five feet from the car and no threat to the lady. In fact she decided to get out of the car as her boy friend approached so she obviously wasn't afraid.

 

[Vastator]

Justified. If the guy on the ground was in fear of his safety.

So as long as your afraid, your justified in taking another mans life? Taking another mans life is dependent on your emotional state?

The guy assaulted him.
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Would it be ok for a child to do this on the play ground? Since when does the punishment for assault involve the DEATH PENALTY? Has anyone ever been given the death penalty for pushing a man to the ground in the United States?

People have been killed from being pushed to the ground...

But he wasn’t

So he wasn’t justified to use deadly force

Wrong. How stupid are you? Wait till you are killed; and then use deadly force? Try it, and let us know how that works out...

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Thats a reasonable point but if the guy was chasing off customers I'm sure he would have called the cops.

we dont know if the owner had in the past

but it seems pretty clear that no legal acrion was taken against the guy to keep him off the property

Yep.
So the the store owner obviously wasnt all that concerned about the guy even though he claimed the guy was a problem.

You made that up. Imagine sitting in a store with a guy is pit bulling a parking space and you're there alone. He said something was wrong with the guy. Psychos are the worst ones to deal with

Made it up?
The guy said he was causing problems.

Swish. You made up the owner wasn't concerned. You have no basis to say that. He brought it up

If he didnt try and run him off he obviously wasnt that concerned.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I've seen people get pushed to the ground like that in the school yard. Its wrong, you have a right to defend yourself. But in this case, taking another mans life was NOT justified. Call the police and the film of the incident would be enough evidence to punish the attacker in an appropriate manner.

The article and video of the incident are in the link below:

For some people being armed leads them to confront people that I don't believe they would had they not been armed.
Illegally parking is not generally a "crime" but an infraction of a civil code - it doesn't result in jail time so while the couple was in the wrong by parking the way they did, and the guy was in the wrong for putting his hands on Drejka, shooting him after he signaled retreat (hands up) and actually backed up would seem more to be more a "how dare you" move than made out of actual fear especially in light of the follow excerpt from a different news article

Drejka is a legal concealed weapon permit holder and will not be charged because of Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, according to the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office.

The store owner said that Drejka has a history of assaulting people in the very parking lot the shooting took place. A man who frequents the store said he had a run-in with Drejka just one month ago.

Rich Kelly says the man picked a fight with him over a parking spot, using racial slurs, and even threatening to kill him.
Video: Florida man shot, killed during parking spot dispute​

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Not in this case.
The guy was standing a good five feet away from the car clearly indicating his wasnt going to get violent.
Had he been all up in her face I could see it.

Ditto for the shooting

He shoved the old man to the ground violently.
Thats about as in your face as you can get.
Tough case...personally I wouldnt have shot the dude just to avoid the potential legal ramifications being in Florida or not.
But then I wouldnt have attacked an old man either.

Who knows,maybe the guy said something that made the guy think it was in his best interest to cap the guy. He didnt seem inclined to shoot at first.

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

I was taught not to park in a handicap zone.

OK, then he deserved to get shot. You win

I have said repeatedly he didnt deserve to get shot.
Legally not so much.

 

[Vastator]

The second the guy stepped back, you no longer have the right to shoot him. If he makes a move towards you again, by all means shoot. But once he is moving away he is no longer an imminent threat and your justification flies out the window.

Not necessarily.

Agreed. By such logic you could run around sucker punching, or stabbing people; but as long as you back away afterwards you nullify the right of the victim to defend himself. And that’s not even bringing into the conversation the attackers intent. Backing up to square off; daring his victim to get up? Backing up to get a running start for a kick to the head? Or simply backing out of the victims defensive range...? Fortunately the victim had a gun.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I've seen people get pushed to the ground like that in the school yard. Its wrong, you have a right to defend yourself. But in this case, taking another mans life was NOT justified. Call the police and the film of the incident would be enough evidence to punish the attacker in an appropriate manner.

The article and video of the incident are in the link below:

For some people being armed leads them to confront people that I don't believe they would had they not been armed.
Illegally parking is not generally a "crime" but an infraction of a civil code - it doesn't result in jail time so while the couple was in the wrong by parking the way they did, and the guy was in the wrong for putting his hands on Drejka, shooting him after he signaled retreat (hands up) and actually backed up would seem more to be more a "how dare you" move than made out of actual fear especially in light of the follow excerpt from a different news article

Drejka is a legal concealed weapon permit holder and will not be charged because of Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, according to the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office.

The store owner said that Drejka has a history of assaulting people in the very parking lot the shooting took place. A man who frequents the store said he had a run-in with Drejka just one month ago.

Rich Kelly says the man picked a fight with him over a parking spot, using racial slurs, and even threatening to kill him.
Video: Florida man shot, killed during parking spot dispute​

Thats not what the store owner said.

 

[westwall]

What an upside-down PUTZ with that bullshit comment.

The white supremacist on the ground was employing threatening gestures toward the man's wife and probably shouting specific epitaphs from the look of his conduct in the video at her car window. Any real man would protect his wife and push an asshole like that away from his her in that type of situation.

The aggressor was the shooter even before he pulled the gun initiating an argument with the woman, regardless of her parking error. That the asswipe was shoved away from the woman by her husband and went down when he was pushed away from the other man's wife was a consequence of his own fucking aggressive actions.

The round fired was absolutely unnecessary given the soon to be dead man backed up, most probably to put himself between the shooter and his wife and to indicate a non-aggressive posture. The shooter was in no danger when he fired, your bullshit version notwithstanding. Why the fuck was a man with anger issues as described in the video was LICENSED to carry should be under investigation. The shooter will be found guilty of at least manslaughter, but if I was on the jury it would vote for second degree murder!

You base your warrantless attack on "probably"? lol

You base your warrantless attack on "probably"? lol

First, it wasn't my attack, fool!

Second, if your dumb ass had paid attention to the details displayed in the video, you would have seen the shooter shaking his fist at the woman in the car and was VERY PROBABLY haranguing her as he shook his fist in agitation. It didn't look like American Sign Language to me, shit for brains! That is very aggressive conduct by any measure! Would you not put yourself between a loved one and an aggressor in that situation or are you just a fucking coward sitting at a keyboard with self absorbed fantasies?

Third, I wrote that the soon to be dead man, "most probably to put himself between the shooter and his wife and to indicate a non-aggressive posture". Being over 8 feet away from the shooter and in a non-aggressive posture slightly moving further away when shot, does not mitigate in the shooter's favor for a self defense claim under the Florida SYG statute when he dropped the hammer. Stupid fucking rabbit!

There is clear video that damn's the shooter along with witnesses in clear view of the event to boot this time, Cowboy!

Please control your self ok? I'm sorry you don't like my opinion, but I just think it was justified on what I can see.

The second the guy stepped back, you no longer have the right to shoot him. If he makes a move towards you again, by all means shoot. But once he is moving away he is no longer an imminent threat and your justification flies out the window.

I think it may also depend on what was said as he moved away. We can't hear anything in the video. It may hinge on that.

Saying something doesn't matter. Actions matter. If he was backing up to get access to a weapon he deserves to be shot, but if he was backing away upon the weapon being presented, then the use of deadly force is not warranted.

 

[westwall]

To me, Stand your Ground means you are not expected to run away from a confrontation, you can use deadly force to protect yourself or your property

In this case, I see a man who was shoved to the ground. Not punched, but forcibly shoved

Once on the ground, I do not see the other man continue the assault and once the gun is drawn, he is backing away

The shot is fired with the man five feet away and backing away from the gun

It no longer seems to be self defense, I see no threat at that time and the guy on the ground seems to fire more in rage than in defending himself

He was forcibly shoved. The dude went flying.
I wouldnt have shot the dude personally. Once he drew his weapon the guy backed off.
Get the plate number and call the cops.

Agree

But the question is, does a shove justify lethal force if there is no further aggression ?

Both acted poorly

How do you know wether more aggression was coming or not? Ever been kicked in the head when you are on the ground?

How?
Because he was unarmed, because he was five feet away and backing away when he saw a gun, because he shoved the guy away from his girlfriend instead of punching him

Having a gun means might makes right
It SHOULD mean you have to show responsible judgement or pay the consequences

Care to show us where having a CCW gives you special exemption from criminal charges if you misuse your firearm? Based on your logic every police shooting ever should result in the criminal prosecution of every cop who shoots a bad guy.

Sure you want to try and use that particular bit of logic?

 

[2aguy]

Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

In the link below is an article with a video that shows a "stand your ground" incident in Clearwater Florida. A women illegally parked in a handicapped spot and got into an argument with a man who confronted her about it. The women's boyfriend, who was in the store at the time, comes out to see the argument and pushes the man to the ground. With the man on the ground he pulls out a gun and aims at the man who assaulted him. The man who committed the assault then backs up. Despite backing away, the man fires his gun anyways hitting the man in the chest. The injured man then runs into the store where he collapses on the ground and dies in front of his five your old son.


My opinion:

Both the women and her boyfriend committed illegal acts which led to the incident. But, I do not feel the man who was assaulted was justified in shooting his attacker. The Attacker had backed off after the gun was pulled. Parking in handicap spot and pushing someone to the ground or both illegal, but punishment for those actions would never warrant the death penalty. Had the attacker continued to assault or move towards the man pushed to the ground, then you might have a case where shooting the gun might be warranted. But that is not what happened. The attacker backed away after the gun was pulled. Then he was shot and killed, dying in front of his five year old son in the store. The man has two other children as well.

I've seen people get pushed to the ground like that in the school yard. Its wrong, you have a right to defend yourself. But in this case, taking another mans life was NOT justified. Call the police and the film of the incident would be enough evidence to punish the attacker in an appropriate manner.

The article and video of the incident are in the link below:

https://nypost.com/2018/07/20/stand...r-in-deadly-fight-over-parking-space-sheriff/

media link from youtube:

Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

In the link below is an article with a video that shows a "stand your ground" incident in Clearwater Florida. A women illegally parked in a handicapped spot and got into an argument with a man who confronted her about it. The women's boyfriend, who was in the store at the time, comes out to see the argument and pushes the man to the ground. With the man on the ground he pulls out a gun and aims at the man who assaulted him. The man who committed the assault then backs up. Despite backing away, the man fires his gun anyways hitting the man in the chest. The injured man then runs into the store where he collapses on the ground and dies in front of his five your old son.


My opinion:

Both the women and her boyfriend committed illegal acts which led to the incident. But, I do not feel the man who was assaulted was justified in shooting his attacker. The Attacker had backed off after the gun was pulled. Parking in handicap spot and pushing someone to the ground or both illegal, but punishment for those actions would never warrant the death penalty. Had the attacker continued to assault or move towards the man pushed to the ground, then you might have a case where shooting the gun might be warranted. But that is not what happened. The attacker backed away after the gun was pulled. Then he was shot and killed, dying in front of his five year old son in the store. The man has two other children as well.

I've seen people get pushed to the ground like that in the school yard. Its wrong, you have a right to defend yourself. But in this case, taking another mans life was NOT justified. Call the police and the film of the incident would be enough evidence to punish the attacker in an appropriate manner.

The article and video of the incident are in the link below:

https://nypost.com/2018/07/20/stand...r-in-deadly-fight-over-parking-space-sheriff/

media link from youtube:

Watching the video, after the push the guy is still advancing on the victim....only in the split second as the gun comes out does he back away..... and by then the adrenaline has obscured the vision of the victim and collapsed time, so he doesn't have the ability to see the guy backing away.....

This is why you don't physically attack people over an argument.......

How do you know what adrenaline the guy had?
Seems more like rage

Study self defense..... then you will have some clue.

 

[cwise76]

the dude who got trigger happy and murdererd that guy is going away to the slammer. GUARANTEED

Already a thread on this.
The guy was justified but I think he went to far.

It’s not the first time this clown has confronted people at this store, over a parking space. But it will be the last. Knocking someone down who doesn’t see it coming is assault. The victim has no way to know what the perpetrators intentions are beyond having already been assaulted. Clean shoot. And another wannabe bad ass is off the street. Who he died in front of is of little relevance. Who knows? Maybe the 5 year old will learn not to make the same mistake that got his father killed...

Legally yes.
Personally I wouldnt have shot the dude.

LOL. You’d be in prison. Watch the video again and dig deep; you know in your heart of hearts that encounter didn’t warrant the use of deadly force

 

[2aguy]

Not in this case.
The guy was standing a good five feet away from the car clearly indicating his wasnt going to get violent.
Had he been all up in her face I could see it.

Ditto for the shooting

He shoved the old man to the ground violently.
Thats about as in your face as you can get.
Tough case...personally I wouldnt have shot the dude just to avoid the potential legal ramifications being in Florida or not.
But then I wouldnt have attacked an old man either.

Who knows,maybe the guy said something that made the guy think it was in his best interest to cap the guy. He didnt seem inclined to shoot at first.

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

Technically, on the video, the guy advances and only retreats, slightly when the gun is pointed at him..... but between the backing up and shooting there isn't time, and he got shot..... Again, the guy violently attacked the victim....

 

[cwise76]

To me, Stand your Ground means you are not expected to run away from a confrontation, you can use deadly force to protect yourself or your property

In this case, I see a man who was shoved to the ground. Not punched, but forcibly shoved

Once on the ground, I do not see the other man continue the assault and once the gun is drawn, he is backing away

The shot is fired with the man five feet away and backing away from the gun

It no longer seems to be self defense, I see no threat at that time and the guy on the ground seems to fire more in rage than in defending himself

He was forcibly shoved. The dude went flying.
I wouldnt have shot the dude personally. Once he drew his weapon the guy backed off.
Get the plate number and call the cops.

Agree

But the question is, does a shove justify lethal force if there is no further aggression ?

Both acted poorly

How do you know wether more aggression was coming or not? Ever been kicked in the head when you are on the ground?

How?
Because he was unarmed, because he was five feet away and backing away when he saw a gun, because he shoved the guy away from his girlfriend instead of punching him

Having a gun means might makes right
It SHOULD mean you have to show responsible judgement or pay the consequences

Care to show us where having a CCW gives you special exemption from criminal charges if you misuse your firearm? Based on your logic every police shooting ever should result in the criminal prosecution of every cop who shoots a bad guy.

Sure you want to try and use that particular bit of logic?

Another good point. A license to carry is not a license to kill

 

[2aguy]

the dude who got trigger happy and murdererd that guy is going away to the slammer. GUARANTEED

Already a thread on this.
The guy was justified but I think he went to far.

It’s not the first time this clown has confronted people at this store, over a parking space. But it will be the last. Knocking someone down who doesn’t see it coming is assault. The victim has no way to know what the perpetrators intentions are beyond having already been assaulted. Clean shoot. And another wannabe bad ass is off the street. Who he died in front of is of little relevance. Who knows? Maybe the 5 year old will learn not to make the same mistake that got his father killed...

Legally yes.
Personally I wouldnt have shot the dude.

LOL. You’d be in prison. Watch the video again and dig deep; you know in your heart of hearts that encounter didn’t warrant the use of deadly force

No guarantee......

 

[kaz]

Ditto for the shooting

He shoved the old man to the ground violently.
Thats about as in your face as you can get.
Tough case...personally I wouldnt have shot the dude just to avoid the potential legal ramifications being in Florida or not.
But then I wouldnt have attacked an old man either.

Who knows,maybe the guy said something that made the guy think it was in his best interest to cap the guy. He didnt seem inclined to shoot at first.

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

Technically, on the video, the guy advances and only retreats, slightly when the gun is pointed at him..... but between the backing up and shooting there isn't time, and he got shot..... Again, the guy violently attacked the victim....

If you start screaming at a woman in a parking lot while her boyfriend is in the shop while you're armed, you don't belong around guns

 

[westwall]

The fact that the shooter has a possible history of initiating confrontations is bad for him. If that is indeed true, then his shooting of the victim might very well be construed as murder. If the claims are true, then it is clear that he was a co-beligerent. Actions have consequences, and if was regularly spoiling for a fight, then he is in trouble.

 

[westwall]

He shoved the old man to the ground violently.
Thats about as in your face as you can get.
Tough case...personally I wouldnt have shot the dude just to avoid the potential legal ramifications being in Florida or not.
But then I wouldnt have attacked an old man either.

Who knows,maybe the guy said something that made the guy think it was in his best interest to cap the guy. He didnt seem inclined to shoot at first.

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

Technically, on the video, the guy advances and only retreats, slightly when the gun is pointed at him..... but between the backing up and shooting there isn't time, and he got shot..... Again, the guy violently attacked the victim....

If you start screaming at a woman in a parking lot while her boyfriend is in the shop while you're armed, you don't belong around guns

It depends on the situation there sport. I agree in principle, but so long as you don't pull the weapon, then what is your beef?

 

[cwise76]

Ditto for the shooting

He shoved the old man to the ground violently.
Thats about as in your face as you can get.
Tough case...personally I wouldnt have shot the dude just to avoid the potential legal ramifications being in Florida or not.
But then I wouldnt have attacked an old man either.

Who knows,maybe the guy said something that made the guy think it was in his best interest to cap the guy. He didnt seem inclined to shoot at first.

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

Technically, on the video, the guy advances and only retreats, slightly when the gun is pointed at him..... but between the backing up and shooting there isn't time, and he got shot..... Again, the guy violently attacked the victim....

Bullshit. I’d bet you a million bucks he’s going to prison. I’ll bet a jury will agree too