Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

[westwall]

He was forcibly shoved. The dude went flying.
I wouldnt have shot the dude personally. Once he drew his weapon the guy backed off.
Get the plate number and call the cops.

Agree

But the question is, does a shove justify lethal force if there is no further aggression ?

Both acted poorly

How do you know wether more aggression was coming or not? Ever been kicked in the head when you are on the ground?

How?
Because he was unarmed, because he was five feet away and backing away when he saw a gun, because he shoved the guy away from his girlfriend instead of punching him

Having a gun means might makes right
It SHOULD mean you have to show responsible judgement or pay the consequences

Care to show us where having a CCW gives you special exemption from criminal charges if you misuse your firearm? Based on your logic every police shooting ever should result in the criminal prosecution of every cop who shoots a bad guy.

Sure you want to try and use that particular bit of logic?

Another good point. A license to carry is not a license to kill

Correct. In fact, in my State, if you do resort to deadly force you are ASSUMED to know what the laws are regarding that use of force if you have a CCW. No, "well I didn't know you couldn't do that", nonsense.

 

[westwall]

He shoved the old man to the ground violently.
Thats about as in your face as you can get.
Tough case...personally I wouldnt have shot the dude just to avoid the potential legal ramifications being in Florida or not.
But then I wouldnt have attacked an old man either.

Who knows,maybe the guy said something that made the guy think it was in his best interest to cap the guy. He didnt seem inclined to shoot at first.

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

Technically, on the video, the guy advances and only retreats, slightly when the gun is pointed at him..... but between the backing up and shooting there isn't time, and he got shot..... Again, the guy violently attacked the victim....

Bullshit. I’d bet you a million bucks he’s going to prison. I’ll bet a jury will agree too

If the claims of prior bad acts prove to be true, i agree with you.

 

[Circe]

Okay, I want to retract my earlier opinion. I watched the video on ABC.

So this woman was doing a common no-no, and I see this done every time I go to my supermarket, but she DID stay in the car so she could move it if someone wanted the parking place.

Guy comes over yelling and carrying on because he's a total idiot and a known trouble-maker. I agree with others that it would be nice to know if he was a "senior citizen," code for senile, I suppose. I can imagine an old guy running around yelling at a woman -- he wouldn't be afraid of her, and he's feeling very self-righteous.

So the trouble-maker pushes the boyfriend down and then instantaneously that guy, prone on the asphalt, draws and kills him.

Okay, I have no problem with that.

People totally don't get to attack others like this. However pompous they feel about rule-breaking. Why can't people MIND THEIR OWN DARN BUSINESS????

 

[kaz]

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

Technically, on the video, the guy advances and only retreats, slightly when the gun is pointed at him..... but between the backing up and shooting there isn't time, and he got shot..... Again, the guy violently attacked the victim....

If you start screaming at a woman in a parking lot while her boyfriend is in the shop while you're armed, you don't belong around guns

It depends on the situation there sport. I agree in principle, but so long as you don't pull the weapon, then what is your beef?

Gun safety starts with avoiding dangerous situations where possible. You don't create a dangerous situation where there could be a shooting. If you're screaming at a woman and her boyfriend is coming out, that right there is setting up a dangerous situation. I mean duh. How do you not get that?

I'm disappointed in all of you who apparently don't view being armed in public as a responsiblity. Particularly 2aguy who is a longtime ally in arguing 2nd amendment rights. What about try NOT to use your gun eludes you?

 

[kaz]

Okay, I want to retract my earlier opinion. I watched the video on ABC.

So this woman was doing a common no-no, and I see this done every time I go to my supermarket, but she DID stay in the car so she could move it if someone wanted the parking place.

Guy comes over yelling and carrying on because he's a total idiot and a known trouble-maker. I agree with others that it would be nice to know if he was a "senior citizen," code for senile, I suppose. I can imagine an old guy running around yelling at a woman -- he wouldn't be afraid of her, and he's feeling very self-righteous.

So the trouble-maker pushes the boyfriend down and then instantaneously that guy, prone on the asphalt, draws and kills him.

Okay, I have no problem with that.

People totally don't get to attack others like this. However pompous they feel about rule-breaking. Why can't people MIND THEIR OWN DARN BUSINESS????

The boyfriend didn't kill the loon, the loon killed the boyfriend

 

[RandomPoster]

Everyone involved appears to have been acting like a hot headed idiot. It looks to me like he shot him as he was backing away and it looks like he did so because he was pissed off, not in fear of his life.

 

[westwall]

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

Technically, on the video, the guy advances and only retreats, slightly when the gun is pointed at him..... but between the backing up and shooting there isn't time, and he got shot..... Again, the guy violently attacked the victim....

If you start screaming at a woman in a parking lot while her boyfriend is in the shop while you're armed, you don't belong around guns

It depends on the situation there sport. I agree in principle, but so long as you don't pull the weapon, then what is your beef?

Gun safety starts with avoiding dangerous situations where possible. You don't create a dangerous situation where there could be a shooting. If you're screaming at a woman and her boyfriend is coming out, that right there is setting up a dangerous situation. I mean duh. How do you not get that?

I'm disappointed in all of you who apparently don't view being armed in public as a responsiblity. Particularly 2aguy who is a longtime ally in arguing 2nd amendment rights. What about try NOT to use your gun eludes you?

No kidding. What if you are not able to avoid it. Sometimes a sharp yell will prevent further violence. Not always, but sometimes it is exactly what is needed to deflate a situation. You deal in absolutes and that is a fools way of looking at the world.

ANYONE who carries concealed OF COURSE KNOWS it is a great responsibility. We all KNOW that we are both defenders of ourselves and those who can't defend themselves, and we are also envoys to the world to show the positive aspects of concealed carry. But, there are ALWAYS idiots, who carry for the wrong reasons. Just as there are cops who are cops for all the wrong reasons.

What's the common denominator? PEOPLE!

 

[OODA_Loop]

Gun safety starts with avoiding dangerous situations where possible. You don't create a dangerous situation where there could be a shooting. If you're screaming at a woman and her boyfriend is coming out, that right there is setting up a dangerous situation.

The shover created the situation. Until then it was all verbal.

 

[harmonica]

Tough situation. Dumbshit 1 was looking for a problem. Dumbshit 2 thought he'd flex his muscle to show-off for his girlfriend. In my opinion dumbshit 1 faces somewhere in the neighborhood of manslaughter and 2nd degree murder. Seven-ten.

agree---that's usually how these situations are
2 idiots
good call

 

[OODA_Loop]

The fact that the shooter has a possible history of initiating confrontations is bad for him. If that is indeed true, then his shooting of the victim might very well be construed as murder. If the claims are true, then it is clear that he was a co-beligerent. Actions have consequences, and if was regularly spoiling for a fight, then he is in trouble.

Nope its over. No charges.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Bullshit. I’d bet you a million bucks he’s going to prison. I’ll bet a jury will agree too

This is not going to trial

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

the dude who got trigger happy and murdererd that guy is going away to the slammer. GUARANTEED

Already a thread on this.
The guy was justified but I think he went to far.

It’s not the first time this clown has confronted people at this store, over a parking space. But it will be the last. Knocking someone down who doesn’t see it coming is assault. The victim has no way to know what the perpetrators intentions are beyond having already been assaulted. Clean shoot. And another wannabe bad ass is off the street. Who he died in front of is of little relevance. Who knows? Maybe the 5 year old will learn not to make the same mistake that got his father killed...

Legally yes.
Personally I wouldnt have shot the dude.

LOL. You’d be in prison. Watch the video again and dig deep; you know in your heart of hearts that encounter didn’t warrant the use of deadly force

I think the guy is going to walk.
Not that the guy should have shot him.
When the cops come right out and say they're not going to charge him it's a pretty good indication how the DA will go.

 

[Vastator]

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

Technically, on the video, the guy advances and only retreats, slightly when the gun is pointed at him..... but between the backing up and shooting there isn't time, and he got shot..... Again, the guy violently attacked the victim....

If you start screaming at a woman in a parking lot while her boyfriend is in the shop while you're armed, you don't belong around guns

It depends on the situation there sport. I agree in principle, but so long as you don't pull the weapon, then what is your beef?

Gun safety starts with avoiding dangerous situations where possible. You don't create a dangerous situation where there could be a shooting. If you're screaming at a woman and her boyfriend is coming out, that right there is setting up a dangerous situation. I mean duh. How do you not get that?

I'm disappointed in all of you who apparently don't view being armed in public as a responsiblity. Particularly 2aguy who is a longtime ally in arguing 2nd amendment rights. What about try NOT to use your gun eludes you?

Armed, or not one is obligated to act responsibly in public. It’s a good idea to do the same in private as well. As to what constitutes him screaming at her... That’s subjective, and we have no idea if she was “screaming” at him in kind. Nor who “screamed” first.
As for doing this while her boyfriend was coming out of the store... It’s unlikely that the victim knew he was being approached by her boyfriend. Otherwise he would likely have made some move to defend himself against an approaching threat. As for the assailaints moral high ground... Muh dicking for your girlfriend gets no traction. He could have just as easily displayed his virtue by telling the driver not to park in the handicapped spot.
And for those bleeding hearts who assume the assailants location indicated the assault was over... You‘re merely speculating. The assault is only over when the assailant decides its over; or when he’s rendered incapable of furthering the assault. The victim made the choice in this case, by opting for choice two.

 

[westwall]

The fact that the shooter has a possible history of initiating confrontations is bad for him. If that is indeed true, then his shooting of the victim might very well be construed as murder. If the claims are true, then it is clear that he was a co-beligerent. Actions have consequences, and if was regularly spoiling for a fight, then he is in trouble.

Nope its over. No charges.

Maybe. The Statute of limitations on Murder is FOREVER. If the AG's office determines at ANY TIME, in the future, that there is probable cause for a murder charge, they can file one.

 

[cwise76]

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

Technically, on the video, the guy advances and only retreats, slightly when the gun is pointed at him..... but between the backing up and shooting there isn't time, and he got shot..... Again, the guy violently attacked the victim....

If you start screaming at a woman in a parking lot while her boyfriend is in the shop while you're armed, you don't belong around guns

It depends on the situation there sport. I agree in principle, but so long as you don't pull the weapon, then what is your beef?

Gun safety starts with avoiding dangerous situations where possible. You don't create a dangerous situation where there could be a shooting. If you're screaming at a woman and her boyfriend is coming out, that right there is setting up a dangerous situation. I mean duh. How do you not get that?

I'm disappointed in all of you who apparently don't view being armed in public as a responsiblity. Particularly 2aguy who is a longtime ally in arguing 2nd amendment rights. What about try NOT to use your gun eludes you?

Armed, or not one is obligated to act responsibly in public. It’s a good idea to do the same in private as well. As to what constitutes him screaming at her... That’s subjective, and we have no idea if she was “screaming” at him in kind. Nor who “screamed” first.
As for doing this while her boyfriend was coming out of the store... It’s unlikely that the victim knew he was being approached by her boyfriend. Otherwise he would likely have made some move to defend himself against an approaching threat. As for the assailaints moral high ground... Muh dickinig for your girlfriend gets no traction. He could have just as easily displayed his virtue by telling the driver not to park in the handicapped spot.
And for those bleeding hearts who assume the assistants location indicated the assault was over... Youre merely speculating. The assault is only over when the assailant decides its over; or when he’s rendered incapable of furthering the assault. The victim made the choice in this case, by opting for choice two.

Wrong choice. Murder in my book

 

[OODA_Loop]

Maybe. The Statute of limitations on Murder is FOREVER. If the AG's office determines at ANY TIME, in the future, that there is probable cause for a murder charge, they can file one.

Already adjudicated by a judge.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

There's blame to go around for all involved.
Chick shouldnt have parked in a handicap zone.
Dude shouldnt have said anything about it.
Boyfriend shouldnt have assaulted the dude.
Dude shouldnt have shot the guy.

Everyone of these people are fuck ups!!

To be honest I dont give a rats ass what happens to any of them jail or dead.

Low class assholes all.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Moral: Do not put your hands on people.

 

[OODA_Loop]

There's blame to go around for all involved.
Chick shouldnt have parked in a handicap zone.
Dude shouldnt have said anything about it.
Boyfriend shouldnt have assaulted the dude.
Dude shouldnt have shot the guy.

Everyone of these people are fuck ups!!

To be honest I dont give a rats ass what happens to any of them jail or dead.

Low class assholes all.

The assault was the escalation of force that warranted defensive action.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

There's blame to go around for all involved.
Chick shouldnt have parked in a handicap zone.
Dude shouldnt have said anything about it.
Boyfriend shouldnt have assaulted the dude.
Dude shouldnt have shot the guy.

Everyone of these people are fuck ups!!

To be honest I dont give a rats ass what happens to any of them jail or dead.

Low class assholes all.

The assault was the escalation of force that warranted defensive action.

I believe the guy was in his rights to shoot the dude but I really dont believe it was necessary.