Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

[2aguy]

Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

In the link below is an article with a video that shows a "stand your ground" incident in Clearwater Florida. A women illegally parked in a handicapped spot and got into an argument with a man who confronted her about it. The women's boyfriend, who was in the store at the time, comes out to see the argument and pushes the man to the ground. With the man on the ground he pulls out a gun and aims at the man who assaulted him. The man who committed the assault then backs up. Despite backing away, the man fires his gun anyways hitting the man in the chest. The injured man then runs into the store where he collapses on the ground and dies in front of his five your old son.


My opinion:

Both the women and her boyfriend committed illegal acts which led to the incident. But, I do not feel the man who was assaulted was justified in shooting his attacker. The Attacker had backed off after the gun was pulled. Parking in handicap spot and pushing someone to the ground or both illegal, but punishment for those actions would never warrant the death penalty. Had the attacker continued to assault or move towards the man pushed to the ground, then you might have a case where shooting the gun might be warranted. But that is not what happened. The attacker backed away after the gun was pulled. Then he was shot and killed, dying in front of his five year old son in the store. The man has two other children as well.

I've seen people get pushed to the ground like that in the school yard. Its wrong, you have a right to defend yourself. But in this case, taking another mans life was NOT justified. Call the police and the film of the incident would be enough evidence to punish the attacker in an appropriate manner.

The article and video of the incident are in the link below:

https://nypost.com/2018/07/20/stand...r-in-deadly-fight-over-parking-space-sheriff/

media link from youtube:

Anyone notice there is no information on the attacker other than he had 3 children out of wedlock with the mother? Usually that means a criminal record.....does anyone know for sure?

 

[cwise76]

To me, Stand your Ground means you are not expected to run away from a confrontation, you can use deadly force to protect yourself or your property

In this case, I see a man who was shoved to the ground. Not punched, but forcibly shoved

Once on the ground, I do not see the other man continue the assault and once the gun is drawn, he is backing away

The shot is fired with the man five feet away and backing away from the gun

It no longer seems to be self defense, I see no threat at that time and the guy on the ground seems to fire more in rage than in defending himself

He was forcibly shoved. The dude went flying.
I wouldnt have shot the dude personally. Once he drew his weapon the guy backed off.
Get the plate number and call the cops.

Agree

But the question is, does a shove justify lethal force if there is no further aggression ?

Both acted poorly

How do you know wether more aggression was coming or not? Ever been kicked in the head when you are on the ground?

How?
Because he was unarmed, because he was five feet away and backing away when he saw a gun, because he shoved the guy away from his girlfriend instead of punching him

Having a gun means might makes right
It SHOULD mean you have to show responsible judgement or pay the consequences

How do you know the guy was unarmed? When you have been violently attacked and the guy is advancing on you?

Murder

 

[2aguy]

Anyone know the age of the victim? Is he a senior citizen or an older guy?

 

[Vastator]

Already a thread on this.
The guy was justified but I think he went to far.

It’s not the first time this clown has confronted people at this store, over a parking space. But it will be the last. Knocking someone down who doesn’t see it coming is assault. The victim has no way to know what the perpetrators intentions are beyond having already been assaulted. Clean shoot. And another wannabe bad ass is off the street. Who he died in front of is of little relevance. Who knows? Maybe the 5 year old will learn not to make the same mistake that got his father killed...

 

[2aguy]

He was forcibly shoved. The dude went flying.
I wouldnt have shot the dude personally. Once he drew his weapon the guy backed off.
Get the plate number and call the cops.

Agree

But the question is, does a shove justify lethal force if there is no further aggression ?

Both acted poorly

How do you know wether more aggression was coming or not? Ever been kicked in the head when you are on the ground?

How?
Because he was unarmed, because he was five feet away and backing away when he saw a gun, because he shoved the guy away from his girlfriend instead of punching him

Having a gun means might makes right
It SHOULD mean you have to show responsible judgement or pay the consequences

How do you know the guy was unarmed? When you have been violently attacked and the guy is advancing on you?

Murder

No..... there was an attack...... that muddies the water a lot...

 

[2aguy]

Already a thread on this.
The guy was justified but I think he went to far.

It’s not the first time this clown has confronted people at this store, over a parking space. But it will be the last. Knocking someone down who doesn’t see it coming is assault. The victim has no way to know what the perpetrators intentions are beyond having already been assaulted. Clean shoot. And another wannabe bad ass is off the street. Who he died in front of is of little relevance. Who knows? Maybe the 5 year old will learn not to make the same mistake that got his father killed...

Do you know if the attacker has a record...the story, as usual, doesn't say anything but tragic things about the attacker.

 

[kaz]

That's a big stretch that the guy who was shot had to know that. You have no basis to say that.

All I can say is that if I was armed and I initiated aggression like the shooter did, then no one I grew up with would say I did the right thing. And I think the'd be right.

That someone can stage a murder and those of you who are defending it are defending it is inexplicable to me. He created a situation where he introduced aggression into the situation and kept repeating it while armed. That was a guaranteed death, which is not what the second amendment is about

If the guy was a problem why didnt the owner have him removed from the premises a long time ago?
That doesnt ad up.

Thats beside the point. You dont attack someone over a verbal confrontation.

I agree, don't attack someone over a verbal confrontation; however, if some kook is in my wife's face screaming at her........I might make a mistake in the heat of the moment.

Not in this case.
The guy was standing a good five feet away from the car clearly indicating his wasnt going to get violent.
Had he been all up in her face I could see it.

Ditto for the shooting

He shoved the old man to the ground violently.
Thats about as in your face as you can get.
Tough case...personally I wouldnt have shot the dude just to avoid the potential legal ramifications being in Florida or not.
But then I wouldnt have attacked an old man either.

Who knows,maybe the guy said something that made the guy think it was in his best interest to cap the guy. He didnt seem inclined to shoot at first.

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

 

[Vastator]

Justified. If the guy on the ground was in fear of his safety.

So as long as your afraid, your justified in taking another mans life? Taking another mans life is dependent on your emotional state?

The guy assaulted him.
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Would it be ok for a child to do this on the play ground? Since when does the punishment for assault involve the DEATH PENALTY? Has anyone ever been given the death penalty for pushing a man to the ground in the United States?

People have been killed from being pushed to the ground...

 

[kaz]

Yes, he could have. But you're talking about the victim, not the shooter, who initiated "the tension."

The odds of any one loop ending in a death was probably low. But he kept repeating the scenario.

If the odds of a shooting in one case is 20% and you repeat that scenario 10 times, the odds of a shooting becomes 90%

Thats the thing though.
The guy was known to be a parking lot nazi even the guy in the interview said it.
The guy that was shot had to know this since he was a daily customer.
And is there any liability for the store owner? He said the guy hung out there everyday. If he was a problem why didnt he call the cops and have him removed?

That's a big stretch that the guy who was shot had to know that. You have no basis to say that.

All I can say is that if I was armed and I initiated aggression like the shooter did, then no one I grew up with would say I did the right thing. And I think the'd be right.

That someone can stage a murder and those of you who are defending it are defending it is inexplicable to me. He created a situation where he introduced aggression into the situation and kept repeating it while armed. That was a guaranteed death, which is not what the second amendment is about

If the guy was a problem why didnt the owner have him removed from the premises a long time ago?
That doesnt ad up.

Thats beside the point. You dont attack someone over a verbal confrontation.

As someone who's owned five businesses, it's not simple to get the police to remove someone from your property. And even if they do, they come right back. Furthermore, the person can get angry at you. It's a bad situation.

And the store owner said the guy kept doing that and he wasn't right. That wouldn't scare you to call the cops on someone aggressive that the cops will just rile off further?

Thats a reasonable point but if the guy was chasing off customers I'm sure he would have called the cops.

It never worked at my restaurant. Sure, the cops chased them off, but they came right back

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

If the guy was a problem why didnt the owner have him removed from the premises a long time ago?
That doesnt ad up.

Thats beside the point. You dont attack someone over a verbal confrontation.

I agree, don't attack someone over a verbal confrontation; however, if some kook is in my wife's face screaming at her........I might make a mistake in the heat of the moment.

Not in this case.
The guy was standing a good five feet away from the car clearly indicating his wasnt going to get violent.
Had he been all up in her face I could see it.

Ditto for the shooting

He shoved the old man to the ground violently.
Thats about as in your face as you can get.
Tough case...personally I wouldnt have shot the dude just to avoid the potential legal ramifications being in Florida or not.
But then I wouldnt have attacked an old man either.

Who knows,maybe the guy said something that made the guy think it was in his best interest to cap the guy. He didnt seem inclined to shoot at first.

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

 

[kaz]

Thats the thing though.
The guy was known to be a parking lot nazi even the guy in the interview said it.
The guy that was shot had to know this since he was a daily customer.
And is there any liability for the store owner? He said the guy hung out there everyday. If he was a problem why didnt he call the cops and have him removed?

That's a big stretch that the guy who was shot had to know that. You have no basis to say that.

All I can say is that if I was armed and I initiated aggression like the shooter did, then no one I grew up with would say I did the right thing. And I think the'd be right.

That someone can stage a murder and those of you who are defending it are defending it is inexplicable to me. He created a situation where he introduced aggression into the situation and kept repeating it while armed. That was a guaranteed death, which is not what the second amendment is about

If the guy was a problem why didnt the owner have him removed from the premises a long time ago?
That doesnt ad up.

Thats beside the point. You dont attack someone over a verbal confrontation.

As someone who's owned five businesses, it's not simple to get the police to remove someone from your property. And even if they do, they come right back. Furthermore, the person can get angry at you. It's a bad situation.

And the store owner said the guy kept doing that and he wasn't right. That wouldn't scare you to call the cops on someone aggressive that the cops will just rile off further?

Thats a reasonable point but if the guy was chasing off customers I'm sure he would have called the cops.

It depends on the frequency and how long the guy hangs out at the store. If it happens about once a month and the guy is gone in five minutes or less.... I might not bother. On hindsight, it is probably good to get the police to file a report on the incidents that led up to this one....but that's hindsight.

The owner knew who he was and what he was doing, so it wasn't that infrequent

 

[kaz]

That's a big stretch that the guy who was shot had to know that. You have no basis to say that.

All I can say is that if I was armed and I initiated aggression like the shooter did, then no one I grew up with would say I did the right thing. And I think the'd be right.

That someone can stage a murder and those of you who are defending it are defending it is inexplicable to me. He created a situation where he introduced aggression into the situation and kept repeating it while armed. That was a guaranteed death, which is not what the second amendment is about

If the guy was a problem why didnt the owner have him removed from the premises a long time ago?
That doesnt ad up.

Thats beside the point. You dont attack someone over a verbal confrontation.

As someone who's owned five businesses, it's not simple to get the police to remove someone from your property. And even if they do, they come right back. Furthermore, the person can get angry at you. It's a bad situation.

And the store owner said the guy kept doing that and he wasn't right. That wouldn't scare you to call the cops on someone aggressive that the cops will just rile off further?

Thats a reasonable point but if the guy was chasing off customers I'm sure he would have called the cops.

we dont know if the owner had in the past

but it seems pretty clear that no legal acrion was taken against the guy to keep him off the property

Yep.
So the the store owner obviously wasnt all that concerned about the guy even though he claimed the guy was a problem.

You made that up. Imagine sitting in a store with a guy is pit bulling a parking space and you're there alone. He said something was wrong with the guy. Psychos are the worst ones to deal with

 

[rightwinger]

Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

In the link below is an article with a video that shows a "stand your ground" incident in Clearwater Florida. A women illegally parked in a handicapped spot and got into an argument with a man who confronted her about it. The women's boyfriend, who was in the store at the time, comes out to see the argument and pushes the man to the ground. With the man on the ground he pulls out a gun and aims at the man who assaulted him. The man who committed the assault then backs up. Despite backing away, the man fires his gun anyways hitting the man in the chest. The injured man then runs into the store where he collapses on the ground and dies in front of his five your old son.


My opinion:

Both the women and her boyfriend committed illegal acts which led to the incident. But, I do not feel the man who was assaulted was justified in shooting his attacker. The Attacker had backed off after the gun was pulled. Parking in handicap spot and pushing someone to the ground or both illegal, but punishment for those actions would never warrant the death penalty. Had the attacker continued to assault or move towards the man pushed to the ground, then you might have a case where shooting the gun might be warranted. But that is not what happened. The attacker backed away after the gun was pulled. Then he was shot and killed, dying in front of his five year old son in the store. The man has two other children as well.

I've seen people get pushed to the ground like that in the school yard. Its wrong, you have a right to defend yourself. But in this case, taking another mans life was NOT justified. Call the police and the film of the incident would be enough evidence to punish the attacker in an appropriate manner.

The article and video of the incident are in the link below:

https://nypost.com/2018/07/20/stand...r-in-deadly-fight-over-parking-space-sheriff/

media link from youtube:

Watching the video, after the push the guy is still advancing on the victim....only in the split second as the gun comes out does he back away..... and by then the adrenaline has obscured the vision of the victim and collapsed time, so he doesn't have the ability to see the guy backing away.....

This is why you don't physically attack people over an argument.......

How do you know what adrenaline the guy had?
Seems more like rage

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

If the guy was a problem why didnt the owner have him removed from the premises a long time ago?
That doesnt ad up.

Thats beside the point. You dont attack someone over a verbal confrontation.

I agree, don't attack someone over a verbal confrontation; however, if some kook is in my wife's face screaming at her........I might make a mistake in the heat of the moment.

Not in this case.
The guy was standing a good five feet away from the car clearly indicating his wasnt going to get violent.
Had he been all up in her face I could see it.

Ditto for the shooting

He shoved the old man to the ground violently.
Thats about as in your face as you can get.
Tough case...personally I wouldnt have shot the dude just to avoid the potential legal ramifications being in Florida or not.
But then I wouldnt have attacked an old man either.

Who knows,maybe the guy said something that made the guy think it was in his best interest to cap the guy. He didnt seem inclined to shoot at first.

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

I was taught not to park in a handicap zone.

 

[rightwinger]

Justified. If the guy on the ground was in fear of his safety.

So as long as your afraid, your justified in taking another mans life? Taking another mans life is dependent on your emotional state?

The guy assaulted him.
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Would it be ok for a child to do this on the play ground? Since when does the punishment for assault involve the DEATH PENALTY? Has anyone ever been given the death penalty for pushing a man to the ground in the United States?

People have been killed from being pushed to the ground...

But he wasn’t

So he wasn’t justified to use deadly force

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Already a thread on this.
The guy was justified but I think he went to far.

It’s not the first time this clown has confronted people at this store, over a parking space. But it will be the last. Knocking someone down who doesn’t see it coming is assault. The victim has no way to know what the perpetrators intentions are beyond having already been assaulted. Clean shoot. And another wannabe bad ass is off the street. Who he died in front of is of little relevance. Who knows? Maybe the 5 year old will learn not to make the same mistake that got his father killed...

Legally yes.
Personally I wouldnt have shot the dude.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

If the guy was a problem why didnt the owner have him removed from the premises a long time ago?
That doesnt ad up.

Thats beside the point. You dont attack someone over a verbal confrontation.

As someone who's owned five businesses, it's not simple to get the police to remove someone from your property. And even if they do, they come right back. Furthermore, the person can get angry at you. It's a bad situation.

And the store owner said the guy kept doing that and he wasn't right. That wouldn't scare you to call the cops on someone aggressive that the cops will just rile off further?

Thats a reasonable point but if the guy was chasing off customers I'm sure he would have called the cops.

we dont know if the owner had in the past

but it seems pretty clear that no legal acrion was taken against the guy to keep him off the property

Yep.
So the the store owner obviously wasnt all that concerned about the guy even though he claimed the guy was a problem.

You made that up. Imagine sitting in a store with a guy is pit bulling a parking space and you're there alone. He said something was wrong with the guy. Psychos are the worst ones to deal with

Made it up?
The guy said he was causing problems.

 

[kaz]

I agree, don't attack someone over a verbal confrontation; however, if some kook is in my wife's face screaming at her........I might make a mistake in the heat of the moment.

Not in this case.
The guy was standing a good five feet away from the car clearly indicating his wasnt going to get violent.
Had he been all up in her face I could see it.

Ditto for the shooting

He shoved the old man to the ground violently.
Thats about as in your face as you can get.
Tough case...personally I wouldnt have shot the dude just to avoid the potential legal ramifications being in Florida or not.
But then I wouldnt have attacked an old man either.

Who knows,maybe the guy said something that made the guy think it was in his best interest to cap the guy. He didnt seem inclined to shoot at first.

I guess we just come from very different cultures. I grew up outside Kalamazoo, Michigan (hence "kaz"). Once you left the city in the 70s, it was country. I was taught that carrying is a responsibility. You avoid conflict, you don't create it. Screaming at a woman then capping her boyfriend when he tried to protect her wouldn't fly. Those are my values

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

 

[kaz]

As someone who's owned five businesses, it's not simple to get the police to remove someone from your property. And even if they do, they come right back. Furthermore, the person can get angry at you. It's a bad situation.

And the store owner said the guy kept doing that and he wasn't right. That wouldn't scare you to call the cops on someone aggressive that the cops will just rile off further?

Thats a reasonable point but if the guy was chasing off customers I'm sure he would have called the cops.

we dont know if the owner had in the past

but it seems pretty clear that no legal acrion was taken against the guy to keep him off the property

Yep.
So the the store owner obviously wasnt all that concerned about the guy even though he claimed the guy was a problem.

You made that up. Imagine sitting in a store with a guy is pit bulling a parking space and you're there alone. He said something was wrong with the guy. Psychos are the worst ones to deal with

Made it up?
The guy said he was causing problems.

Swish. You made up the owner wasn't concerned. You have no basis to say that. He brought it up

 

[OODA_Loop]

The second the guy stepped back, you no longer have the right to shoot him. If he makes a move towards you again, by all means shoot. But once he is moving away he is no longer an imminent threat and your justification flies out the window.

Not necessarily.