Lakewood Church Stops Womans Funeral Because She Was Gay (It Was The Right Decision)

[AvgGuyIA]

It's like you fucking morons think you're going to get gay cooties if you're around the homos.

sheesh

Have you ever contracted crabs?

 

[emilynghiem]

The Pastor made the noble right decision. I would have done the same thing. Morals had to be upheld.



Family Church in Lakewood stops woman s funeral because she was gay - The Denver Post

Mom s Funeral Halted by Pastor Over Affectionate Photos of Two Wives

If they already paid for the space, to bring in their own pastor,
they should have agreed to all this in the first place.

You don't wait until the middle of the services to find out there is a contract dispute and yank it.
How traumatizing for the children and the family who were NEVER told there were such objections.

The conflict was over displaying photos of the two women in roles normally reserved for husband and wife,
such as proposing and kissing and displaying affection between partners.

Anyone who objected should have either been consulted *in advance*,
so the services were taken to another location without those conflicts,
or work it out where nobody has to be there or feel imposed upon who is against this.

If it were something like a film shoot, and suddenly
the owners are told there is porn being filmed and they don't agree,
I can understand interrupting that.

For a funeral service, I would have recommended they let it slide if it was already set up,
and just specify in the future so that doesn't happen again.

But the pastor who was planning to conduct the service
should have checked in advance and made sure other people who own that space
have no objections, knowing this is a sensitive issue.

If this Pastor Ray had the authority to void the contract,
he should have been notified in advance. Yet I would still have
asked him to respect the contract and let the services finish,
and not try to address this dispute in the middle and especially in front of grieving kids, family and friends.

They did not mean to offend or insult or impose.
It was an honest mistake not to check with everyone first.

If they intended to defraud someone, whoever did that deserved to be reprimanded,
but not the other people who had no idea there was a conflict.

Pastor Ray should not be criticized for his beliefs, but for
how he overreacted by interrupting services when it was a mutual mistake
not to inform both sides in advance so they could have prevented this clash.

The beliefs are not to blame, but the way this was mishandled was a mutual conflict
and should have been prevented by checking with all parties in advance. I'm sorry this happened.
I respect both views that clearly should have been kept separate by choosing a location without such conflicts.

My best wishes and prayers to the family, friends, and community
that they resolve this in good faith and not stir or incite any harsh feelings
that isn't the best way to send someone off to rest in peace.

It is better to forgive, make peace and heal,
so those personal sacrifices made for sake of restoring good faith relations
become an offering in honor of loved ones passing on to the next world.

 

[Katzndogz]

The church should give the family at least a partial refund for the part of the service they didn't get. Giving the video to the pastor is meaningless. There's no proof he saw it and no reason why he would have seen it. If the family didn't make it explicitly clear that the deceased was a lesbian then the family has committed fraud and may not be entitled to any refund at all.

 

[emilynghiem]

The church should give the family at least a partial refund for the part of the service they didn't get. Giving the video to the pastor is meaningless. There's no proof he saw it and no reason why he would have seen it. If the family didn't make it explicitly clear that the deceased was a lesbian then the family has committed fraud and may not be entitled to any refund at all.

Pastor Chavez made it clear the reason for the conflict was not over the fact the deceased was a lesbian,
but the objections were over certain photos of the same sex couple.

I agree this should have been worked out in advance, so the couple and the ministers could avoid this conflict.
But no, I don't see how anyone intended or committed fraud.

It seems to me an honest mistake on both sides.

The same way I would have implored the pastors to let the service finish
and deal with it afterwards; I would implore the family not to sue, but to work it out in good faith
as a way to honor their loved one by not turning this into anything ugly.
If people are shocked and upset that is one thing, but it is from an honest mistake in not checking in advance.

No one should be embarrassed differences in beliefs and cultures that happen all the time.

The timing was just so poor, it caught everyone off guard.
Everyone is owed an apology for the added grief, but no one should have to apologize for their beliefs they can't help.

The clash happened, was an honest mistake by oversight on both sides who failed to check first,
and should have been prevented in advance. These things happen, especially with weddings and funerals
that are very sensitive where so many things go wrong with that many people involved.

Again, my condolences to everyone, whom I pray is lifted up and made whole.

 

[hipeter924]

The Pastor made the noble right decision. I would have done the same thing. Morals had to be upheld.



Family Church in Lakewood stops woman s funeral because she was gay - The Denver Post

Mom s Funeral Halted by Pastor Over Affectionate Photos of Two Wives

If they already paid for the space, to bring in their own pastor,
they should have agreed to all this in the first place.

You don't wait until the middle of the services to find out there is a contract dispute and yank it.
How traumatizing for the children and the family who were NEVER told there were such objections.

The conflict was over displaying photos of the two women in roles normally reserved for husband and wife,
such as proposing and kissing and displaying affection between partners.

Anyone who objected should have either been consulted *in advance*,
so the services were taken to another location without those conflicts,
or work it out where nobody has to be there or feel imposed upon who is against this.

If it were something like a film shoot, and suddenly
the owners are told there is porn being filmed and they don't agree,
I can understand interrupting that.

For a funeral service, I would have recommended they let it slide if it was already set up,
and just specify in the future so that doesn't happen again.

But the pastor who was planning to conduct the service
should have checked in advance and made sure other people who own that space
have no objections, knowing this is a sensitive issue.

If this Pastor Ray had the authority to void the contract,
he should have been notified in advance. Yet I would still have
asked him to respect the contract and let the services finish,
and not try to address this dispute in the middle and especially in front of grieving kids, family and friends.

They did not mean to offend or insult or impose.
It was an honest mistake not to check with everyone first.

If they intended to defraud someone, whoever did that deserved to be reprimanded,
but not the other people who had no idea there was a conflict.

Pastor Ray should not be criticized for his beliefs, but for
how he overreacted by interrupting services when it was a mutual mistake
not to inform both sides in advance so they could have prevented this clash.

The beliefs are not to blame, but the way this was mishandled was a mutual conflict
and should have been prevented by checking with all parties in advance. I'm sorry this happened.
I respect both views that clearly should have been kept separate by choosing a location without such conflicts.

My best wishes and prayers to the family, friends, and community
that they resolve this in good faith and not stir or incite any harsh feelings
that isn't the best way to send someone off to rest in peace.

It is better to forgive, make peace and heal,
so those personal sacrifices made for sake of restoring good faith relations
become an offering in honor of loved ones passing on to the next world.

It wasn't an 'honest mistake', they sent a video of two lesbians kissing to the Pastor. The church then pocketed the money, and added it to their tax deduction - as well as put it in the bank to earn interest.

Then the Pastor waited till the service had begun to cancel it, to cause as much pain and anguish to the mourners as possible.

Fuck, 'forgive and forget', the Pastor is a homophobic asshole gaming the system for profit. It is easy to say 'forgive and forget' when it isn't a funeral of someone close to you.

 

[hipeter924]

The church should give the family at least a partial refund for the part of the service they didn't get. Giving the video to the pastor is meaningless. There's no proof he saw it and no reason why he would have seen it. If the family didn't make it explicitly clear that the deceased was a lesbian then the family has committed fraud and may not be entitled to any refund at all.

False. By US law no one is required to state their sexual orientation beyond male and female. They can't be convicted of fraud for saying the dead lesbian was female.

 

[Dekster]

Why wasnt it at the funeral home to begin with? She didnt go to church... inevitably Preacher would have said something that angered them anyway....... just seems like poor planning .... or an effort to manufacture a story

Ding Ding Ding--we have a winner.

The minister was wrong for doing what he did, but I suspect that he played right into the hands of people looking to make some kind of anti-religion statement, among other things.

The most telling statement from the article is "Collier's friends say they still haven't been reimbursed by New Hope Ministry for the cost of the funeral" There is no reason for the church to pay for a funeral for somebody. They seemingly are just trying to extort money from a church by shaming it out of them as best as I can tell.

 

[hipeter924]

Why wasnt it at the funeral home to begin with? She didnt go to church... inevitably Preacher would have said something that angered them anyway....... just seems like poor planning .... or an effort to manufacture a story

Ding Ding Ding--we have a winner.

The minister was wrong for doing what he did, but I suspect that he played right into the hands of people looking to make some kind of anti-religion statement, among other things.

The most telling statement from the article is "Collier's friends say they still haven't been reimbursed by New Hope Ministry for the cost of the funeral" There is no reason for the church to pay for a funeral for somebody. They seemingly are just trying to extort money from a church by shaming it out of them as best as I can tell.

How can they extort money from a church that didn't perform a service, and didn't spend a cent, and had pocketed the money for 2 weeks in the bank.

 

[Nosmo King]

It was the wrong and hateful decision, contrary to the fundamental tenets of Christianity.

You've been here long enough to know that the phrase "fundamental tenets of Christianity" is meaningless.

Not meaningless as much as flexible. The very same way radical Islamists cloak themselves in the sheer cloth of faith when acting rudely at best, manically violent at worst. Christians don the righteous robes and act most unChristian. The use of Christianity to deny a funeral service for ANYONE is high on the list of the worst uses of Christianity.

My advice is to ignore these idiots before they become the Westboro Baptist Church of the 2010s.

 

[Katzndogz]

The church should give the family at least a partial refund for the part of the service they didn't get. Giving the video to the pastor is meaningless. There's no proof he saw it and no reason why he would have seen it. If the family didn't make it explicitly clear that the deceased was a lesbian then the family has committed fraud and may not be entitled to any refund at all.

False. By US law no one is required to state their sexual orientation beyond male and female. They can't be convicted of fraud for saying the dead lesbian was female.

Convicted? Convicted of fraud? Are you thinking criminal fraud? There's no crime here. It would be a breach of contract. The church breached the contract. An affirmative defense to the breach would be fraud. The sexual orientation of the deceased was an omitted material fact.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

I believe the church should be commended for at least, that they would have done the funeral if the family had given in a little and omitted the couple kissing and together.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

The Pastor made the noble right decision. I would have done the same thing. Morals had to be upheld.



Family Church in Lakewood stops woman s funeral because she was gay - The Denver Post

Mom s Funeral Halted by Pastor Over Affectionate Photos of Two Wives

If they already paid for the space, to bring in their own pastor,
they should have agreed to all this in the first place.

You don't wait until the middle of the services to find out there is a contract dispute and yank it.
How traumatizing for the children and the family who were NEVER told there were such objections.

The conflict was over displaying photos of the two women in roles normally reserved for husband and wife,
such as proposing and kissing and displaying affection between partners.

Anyone who objected should have either been consulted *in advance*,
so the services were taken to another location without those conflicts,
or work it out where nobody has to be there or feel imposed upon who is against this.

If it were something like a film shoot, and suddenly
the owners are told there is porn being filmed and they don't agree,
I can understand interrupting that.

For a funeral service, I would have recommended they let it slide if it was already set up,
and just specify in the future so that doesn't happen again.

But the pastor who was planning to conduct the service
should have checked in advance and made sure other people who own that space
have no objections, knowing this is a sensitive issue.

If this Pastor Ray had the authority to void the contract,
he should have been notified in advance. Yet I would still have
asked him to respect the contract and let the services finish,
and not try to address this dispute in the middle and especially in front of grieving kids, family and friends.

They did not mean to offend or insult or impose.
It was an honest mistake not to check with everyone first.

If they intended to defraud someone, whoever did that deserved to be reprimanded,
but not the other people who had no idea there was a conflict.

Pastor Ray should not be criticized for his beliefs, but for
how he overreacted by interrupting services when it was a mutual mistake
not to inform both sides in advance so they could have prevented this clash.

The beliefs are not to blame, but the way this was mishandled was a mutual conflict
and should have been prevented by checking with all parties in advance. I'm sorry this happened.
I respect both views that clearly should have been kept separate by choosing a location without such conflicts.

My best wishes and prayers to the family, friends, and community
that they resolve this in good faith and not stir or incite any harsh feelings
that isn't the best way to send someone off to rest in peace.

It is better to forgive, make peace and heal,
so those personal sacrifices made for sake of restoring good faith relations
become an offering in honor of loved ones passing on to the next world.

It wasn't an 'honest mistake', they sent a video of two lesbians kissing to the Pastor. The church then pocketed the money, and added it to their tax deduction - as well as put it in the bank to earn interest.

Then the Pastor waited till the service had begun to cancel it, to cause as much pain and anguish to the mourners as possible.

Fuck, 'forgive and forget', the Pastor is a homophobic asshole gaming the system for profit. It is easy to say 'forgive and forget' when it isn't a funeral of someone close to you.

That is hard to believe.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I don't find this story at all surprising. Its exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught but its also what we read every day from the "christians" here.

 

[Katzndogz]

The part about leaving judgment to God doesn't apply to one's own self. We are supposed to judge our own actions. The pastor was correct in not committing what would be in his mind, a sin.

 

[emilynghiem]

The Pastor made the noble right decision. I would have done the same thing. Morals had to be upheld.



Family Church in Lakewood stops woman s funeral because she was gay - The Denver Post

Mom s Funeral Halted by Pastor Over Affectionate Photos of Two Wives

If they already paid for the space, to bring in their own pastor,
they should have agreed to all this in the first place.

You don't wait until the middle of the services to find out there is a contract dispute and yank it.
How traumatizing for the children and the family who were NEVER told there were such objections.

The conflict was over displaying photos of the two women in roles normally reserved for husband and wife,
such as proposing and kissing and displaying affection between partners.

Anyone who objected should have either been consulted *in advance*,
so the services were taken to another location without those conflicts,
or work it out where nobody has to be there or feel imposed upon who is against this.

If it were something like a film shoot, and suddenly
the owners are told there is porn being filmed and they don't agree,
I can understand interrupting that.

For a funeral service, I would have recommended they let it slide if it was already set up,
and just specify in the future so that doesn't happen again.

But the pastor who was planning to conduct the service
should have checked in advance and made sure other people who own that space
have no objections, knowing this is a sensitive issue.

If this Pastor Ray had the authority to void the contract,
he should have been notified in advance. Yet I would still have
asked him to respect the contract and let the services finish,
and not try to address this dispute in the middle and especially in front of grieving kids, family and friends.

They did not mean to offend or insult or impose.
It was an honest mistake not to check with everyone first.

If they intended to defraud someone, whoever did that deserved to be reprimanded,
but not the other people who had no idea there was a conflict.

Pastor Ray should not be criticized for his beliefs, but for
how he overreacted by interrupting services when it was a mutual mistake
not to inform both sides in advance so they could have prevented this clash.

The beliefs are not to blame, but the way this was mishandled was a mutual conflict
and should have been prevented by checking with all parties in advance. I'm sorry this happened.
I respect both views that clearly should have been kept separate by choosing a location without such conflicts.

My best wishes and prayers to the family, friends, and community
that they resolve this in good faith and not stir or incite any harsh feelings
that isn't the best way to send someone off to rest in peace.

It is better to forgive, make peace and heal,
so those personal sacrifices made for sake of restoring good faith relations
become an offering in honor of loved ones passing on to the next world.

It wasn't an 'honest mistake', they sent a video of two lesbians kissing to the Pastor. The church then pocketed the money, and added it to their tax deduction - as well as put it in the bank to earn interest.

Then the Pastor waited till the service had begun to cancel it, to cause as much pain and anguish to the mourners as possible.

Fuck, 'forgive and forget', the Pastor is a homophobic asshole gaming the system for profit. It is easy to say 'forgive and forget' when it isn't a funeral of someone close to you.

Even more reason to work it out in advance.

We KNOW this issue runs deep and can't be handled as simply
as "sending a video to the Pastor."

You have to know someone personally.
If they never met in person, that is a big risk I would never have recommended.

I feel bad for these people and would have recommended
they make SURE they pick a site where NOBODY is connected to it
who could suddenly protest or change their minds.

I feel really bad the family was naive not to know to
check and watch out for this. Whoever was their pastor,
surely they could have caught this in advance.

If the person who intervened had no authority to step in to stop the services,
then shame on that person.

Seems clear to me they should never have contracted with this
group, but I guess now the public is well warned from now on.
This is really terrible, and I feel for everyone caught in it.
Just terrible!

 

[Luddly Neddite]

The part about leaving judgment to God doesn't apply to one's own self. We are supposed to judge our own actions. The pastor was correct in not committing what would be in his mind, a sin.

"We are supposed to judge our own actions."

Check out the telephone poll in the eye of our lying, drunken doctor/lawyer/dog washer.

What did Jesus have to say about lying?

 

[Dekster]

Why wasnt it at the funeral home to begin with? She didnt go to church... inevitably Preacher would have said something that angered them anyway....... just seems like poor planning .... or an effort to manufacture a story

Ding Ding Ding--we have a winner.

The minister was wrong for doing what he did, but I suspect that he played right into the hands of people looking to make some kind of anti-religion statement, among other things.

The most telling statement from the article is "Collier's friends say they still haven't been reimbursed by New Hope Ministry for the cost of the funeral" There is no reason for the church to pay for a funeral for somebody. They seemingly are just trying to extort money from a church by shaming it out of them as best as I can tell.

How can they extort money from a church that didn't perform a service, and didn't spend a cent, and had pocketed the money for 2 weeks in the bank.

They paid for the use of the facility and now they want the church to pay for the whole funeral based on my reading of the various articles. I have not seen any indication that they were paid two weeks in advance. That would be quite the delay in funeral arrangements.

 

[emilynghiem]

I don't find this story at all surprising. Its exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught but its also what we read every day from the "christians" here.

Thanks, Luddly
The key is for Christians to police other Christians who will only accept rebuke from fellow Christians.

If you go around attacking me, and trying to exclude me as a Christian,
then you are UNDERCUTTING the very people who COULD hold Christians to account.

You need to start SUPPORTING and listening to the Believers in Christ like me
willing to teach that Salvation is INCLUSIVE of nontheists equally as theists.

I am a secular gentile, and a nontheist who believes in Natural Laws.
But I also believe Christ fulfills the Natural laws for nontheists
equally as fulfilling the scriptural laws and authority that theist believers are under.

So that is INCLUSIVE. I do believe that is the spirit of Christ Jesus,
to Restore Justice equally for ALL people of all tribes joined in Christ INCLUSIVELY.

So quit rejecting theists who believe in INCLUSION
and maybe we can "check" and rebuke those who don't get it yet.

Don't make enemies where you could make allies.
Be inclusive if you want to teach inclusion.
The more you practice the inclusion you preach,
the more people will listen instead of rejecting YOU as a hypocrite as well!
Thanks Luddly Neddite
I'm not against you or what you're saying here, but I find it divisive and self-defeating when you come across as anti-Christian instead of pro-inclusion

 

[Katzndogz]

The part about leaving judgment to God doesn't apply to one's own self. We are supposed to judge our own actions. The pastor was correct in not committing what would be in his mind, a sin.

"We are supposed to judge our own actions."

Check out the telephone poll in the eye of our lying, drunken doctor/lawyer/dog washer.

Admittedly I was a lawyer for more than 30 years until I despised people too much to continue. But where did you ever get the idea I was a doctor? Is that one of your delusions?

 

[emilynghiem]

The part about leaving judgment to God doesn't apply to one's own self. We are supposed to judge our own actions. The pastor was correct in not committing what would be in his mind, a sin.

Dear Tipsycatlover
I agree the pastor has the right to defend his religious beliefs and practice.

The problem is the family had already contracted and paid the church,
and these conflicts were not brought up or agreed upon in advance.

I respect the family and bereaved for agreeing to move to resolve
the conflict over the photos being displayed.

But this should have been discussed in advance before the
contract was signed and paid on.

That contract is under civil laws. So the spirit of social contracts
is CONSENT. There was not Informed Consent and full agreement,
so there was a problem with the contract.

It should not have been signed between these parties to begin
with because they had clashing beliefs.

Both sides have rights to their beliefs.
Neither is wrong in their own context.
They should just NEVER have contracted with
each other since they did not REALLY agree.

Blaming one side just incites equal reaction to blame the other.

So THAT's why when things go wrong, Jesus in the Bible
says to forgive 77 times 77. if both sides follow the spirit of Christ
and divine forgiveness the relations can be healed and good faith restored.

So that is God's will, that we forgive and heal where forgiveness
allows in God's love and wisdom to correct all wrongs and cast out all fear.

Holding on to blame or judgment or resentment BLOCKS God's will
from entering into the relationship and correcting/healing it.

As Christian believers we are to forgive first in order to
open up our relations to receive corrections in truth from God.

Where we AGREE in Christ, that's where God's will is established among us.
That is done in the spirit of love, and not in any kind of ill will, negative
fear rejection or division. We must make corrections in CHRIST which
means forgiveness first, then the corrections and resolutions follow.