Let's get specific on the politics of GUN CONTROL

[The Rabbi]

"Gun control" is such a vague, catch-all phrase. I know how important bumper-sticker sloganeering is nowadays, but maybe we could get more specific on the individual issues within the overall gun control issue.

Let's start off with background checks. It seems to me that doing a background check on anyone who wants to purchase a gun - universal background checks - makes perfect sense and there is no reason why gun shows, for example, should have any kind of exemption.

A strong of Americans can see a value in this. Poll shows bipartisan support for expanding background checks -- Conservatives, if you disagree with that, what are your reasons?
.

If you're talking about a federal law mandating background checks, then we first have to identify which of congress' enumerated powers would permit the enactment of such a law. Without the power to do so, enacting such a law would violate the constitution.

Why don't you tell us? You raised the point, so within the 18 clauses of Article I, Section 8 can we find one or more of those enumerated powers authorizing Congress to mandate background checks?

I don't see any power that would allow congress to mandate background checks for all sales.

Interstate commerce. It's a weak argument but they will argue that commerce within the state affects commerce between states. They will cite Wickard v Fillbern as proof.

Sure, they can claim anything they want. But they'd have to make the case the buying a weapon from one's neighbor is commerce among the states. Which it isn't. They might as well try to claim that a horse is a fish.

I see your point but go look at Wickard, the "wheat case" where they used that exact argument and got away with it.

 

[ThoughtCrimes]

"Gun control" is such a vague, catch-all phrase. I know how important bumper-sticker sloganeering is nowadays, but maybe we could get more specific on the individual issues within the overall gun control issue.

Let's start off with background checks. It seems to me that doing a background check on anyone who wants to purchase a gun - universal background checks - makes perfect sense and there is no reason why gun shows, for example, should have any kind of exemption.

A strong of Americans can see a value in this. Poll shows bipartisan support for expanding background checks -- Conservatives, if you disagree with that, what are your reasons?
.

If you're talking about a federal law mandating background checks, then we first have to identify which of congress' enumerated powers would permit the enactment of such a law. Without the power to do so, enacting such a law would violate the constitution.

Why don't you tell us? You raised the point, so within the 18 clauses of Article I, Section 8 can we find one or more of those enumerated powers authorizing Congress to mandate background checks?

I don't see any power that would allow congress to mandate background checks for all sales.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the both the Commerce and Necessary and Proper clauses.

 

[Rustic]

"Gun control" is such a vague, catch-all phrase. I know how important bumper-sticker sloganeering is nowadays, but maybe we could get more specific on the individual issues within the overall gun control issue.

Let's start off with background checks. It seems to me that doing a background check on anyone who wants to purchase a gun - universal background checks - makes perfect sense and there is no reason why gun shows, for example, should have any kind of exemption.

A strong of Americans can see a value in this. Poll shows bipartisan support for expanding background checks -- Conservatives, if you disagree with that, what are your reasons?
.

The term universal background checks is far too broad, and it always leads to gun registration which is unconstitutional.

 

[Rustic]

Clearly Americans shoot one another in astounding numbers, and something should be done while some are still alive. In my view, the obvious move is to make the NRA co-defendant in any gun-murder trial, as it is so obviously an accessory.

You're too stupid to breathe

 

[Rustic]

Why am I responsible for someone else's actions whn I had no idea that's what he would do?
WHen you sell a car to someone are you responsible if they get into an accident with it?
Joe is the biggest dumbshit on this site

If I gave my car to someone knowing he was drunk, and he runs over a bunch of nuns and orphans with it, you are darned right someone is going to look at my level of liability.

The thing was, we used to hold gun sellers responsible for their actions. When the DC Snipers were found to have gotten their guns illegally (one being a minor, the other being a convicted felon), a court found the gun shop and the gun manufacturers liable.

And the gun industry ran right to congress and whined until they got civil immunity most merchants wouldn't dream of having.

Of course, the gun industry NEEDS mayhem. It needs for the occassional asshole to go out there and mow down a bunch of preschoolers. Because then all the rest of you will want guns, too, on the delusion they keep you safe.

No one has a right to a car, gun ownership is a right. dumbass

 

[Rustic]

Not really. And if that passed I still wouldn't know because defeating the background check is just too easy.
Why dont you respond to my post on those points: it is an infringement and it will not be effective.

How do you define "Effective"?

The thing is, every time one of these crazy assholes shoots up a church or a school or a theater, the media finds out just how crazy these people are within hours.

seems the gun industry should be held to the same standard before selling someone a gun.

You're too weak minded to see how stupid you sound...

 

[Rustic]

Poll shows bipartisan support for expanding background checks"Gun control" is such a vague, catch-all phrase. I know how important bumper-sticker sloganeering is nowadays, but maybe we could get more specific on the individual issues within the overall gun control issue.

Let's start off with background checks. It seems to me that doing a background check on anyone who wants to purchase a gun - universal background checks - makes perfect sense and there is no reason why gun shows, for example, should have any kind of exemption.

A strong of Americans can see a value in this. Poll shows bipartisan support for expanding background checks -- Conservatives, if you disagree with that, what are your reasons?
.

First, it represents an infringement on my right to sell my own property.
Second, it will be ineffective in reducing crime. Will criminals submit to background checks? No.
Third. Well, with an infringement of rights on one hand and an ineffective policy on the other what more do you need to understand it's a stupid policy?

Poll shows bipartisan support for expanding background checks"Gun control" is such a vague, catch-all phrase. I know how important bumper-sticker sloganeering is nowadays, but maybe we could get more specific on the individual issues within the overall gun control issue.

Let's start off with background checks. It seems to me that doing a background check on anyone who wants to purchase a gun - universal background checks - makes perfect sense and there is no reason why gun shows, for example, should have any kind of exemption.

A strong of Americans can see a value in this. Poll shows bipartisan support for expanding background checks -- Conservatives, if you disagree with that, what are your reasons?
.

First, it represents an infringement on my right to sell my own property.
Second, it will be ineffective in reducing crime. Will criminals submit to background checks? No.
Third. Well, with an infringement of rights on one hand and an ineffective policy on the other what more do you need to understand it's a stupid policy?

If someone has a criminal history, or a significant mental issue history, or a restraining order on them, would you like to know that when they're purchasing a gun?
.

Not really. And if that passed I still wouldn't know because defeating the background check is just too easy.
Why dont you respond to my post on those points: it is an infringement and it will not be effective.

Well, "effective" is subjective. Would it stop just one psycho from getting a gun? A hundred? Ten thousand? Surely it would have some positive effect, the question is the degree. What is the real cost of going through a background check? A little temporary inconvenience?

Same thing with the notion of "infringement'. Any law or ordinance could be considered an infringement. I'm First Amendment purist, but even I will grudgingly bend for certain laws.

This isn't a binary situation. Rights are not destroyed by laws.
.

If they lead to the gun registration they are, gun registration is absolutely unconstitutional.

 

[Samson]

Opposed to the delusion that the government will keep us safe. Never has: Never will.

Yeah, because not letting any asshole get a gun never works.

Except for the United Kingdom, Japan, Germany, Italy, France, Australia, Canada...

Where they have gun control and oddly, NOWHERE NEAR the homicide rates we have.

Above I gave FBI sources murder rates in the USA, with a population of 300,000,000.

A. Of the countries you mentioned, Japan has the population closest to the USA at about 127 million. Not even 50%. Ethnically, they are homogeneous.
B. All have histories of incredible violence toward their neighbors, except for Aussies and Canadians.
C. Aussies and Canadians live in countries where there are very few people per land area.

Concluding that only the difference between the USA and another nation's gun laws is the ONLY reason that 8,000 gunshot inflicted murders of 300,000,000 mostly armed citizens is narrow-minded.

 

[Rustic]

Opposed to the delusion that the government will keep us safe. Never has: Never will.

Yeah, because not letting any asshole get a gun never works.

Except for the United Kingdom, Japan, Germany, Italy, France, Australia, Canada...

Where they have gun control and oddly, NOWHERE NEAR the homicide rates we have.

You'll believe anything, will you not?
Those are different countries, we don't want to be a socialist dictatorship. Bring something relative to the conversation why don't you. dumbass

 

[Rustic]

Lots of people are "crazy" and never shoot up anything. You, for example.

Okay, you see, there's a difference between "Crazy" and "saying stuff you don't like".

I'm sorry I have to explain this to you.

But let's look at that.

For the job I started last year, the company did-

1) A complete background check.
2) A credit check
3) Checked where I went to school
4) Asked several co-workers about me (even though they had two of my former co-workers already working for them, which is how I heard about the job.)

In short, before they let me issue a single purchase order on their behalf, they thoroughly checked me out.

Seems to me we should probably do the same before we let people have guns.

If they had done a background check on James "Joker" Holmes, they'd have found his university was in the process of expelling him.

Had they done a background check on Dylan Roof, they'd have found he had been arrested for drugs and was under a restraining order for stalking a girl.

Had they done a background check on Seung-Hui Cho (The Virginia Tech Shooter) they'd have found a history of anti-social, violent behavior dating back to junior high school.

Your reaching...

 

[Missourian]

Opposed to the delusion that the government will keep us safe. Never has: Never will.

Yeah, because not letting any asshole get a gun never works.

Except for the United Kingdom, Japan, Germany, Italy, France, Australia, Canada...

Where they have gun control and oddly, NOWHERE NEAR the homicide rates we have.

They had nowhere near the homicide rates we have BEFORE they had gun control.

 

[Rustic]

In order to enforce a background check on private sellers the Government would need to register all firearms. Without registration there is no legal way the Government can prove a private citizen sold their firearm to anyone else without a background check. Making the law unenforceable. Registration is nothing more than a means for the Government to seize weapons at their convenience.

and that would be a bad thing, why?

If you guys are arguing that you can't own your penis surrogates....oh, sorry, Constituationally mandated rights without having to tolerate 33,000 deaths, 70,000 injuries and 1.5 million gun crimes a year, because you refuse to take the actions to keep those things from happening, then I really have no problem giving up the "right".

You don't need a gun, you want a gun.

Cry me a river dumbass, gun registration is absolutely unconstitutional. You need to get out of your mothers basement more.

 

[80zephyr]

Opposed to the delusion that the government will keep us safe. Never has: Never will.

Yeah, because not letting any asshole get a gun never works.

Except for the United Kingdom, Japan, Germany, Italy, France, Australia, Canada...

Where they have gun control and oddly, NOWHERE NEAR the homicide rates we have.

France suffered more casualties (murders and injuries) from mass public shootings in 2015 than the US has suffered during Obama’s entire presidency (UPDATED 524 to 428)

France suffered more casualties (murders and injuries) from mass public shootings in 2015 than the US has suffered during Obama’s entire presidency (UPDATED 524 to 428) - Crime Prevention Research Center

 

[Rustic]

Opposed to the delusion that the government will keep us safe. Never has: Never will.

Yeah, because not letting any asshole get a gun never works.

Except for the United Kingdom, Japan, Germany, Italy, France, Australia, Canada...

Where they have gun control and oddly, NOWHERE NEAR the homicide rates we have.

France suffered more casualties (murders and injuries) from mass public shootings in 2015 than the US has suffered during Obama’s entire presidency (UPDATED 524 to 428)

France suffered more casualties (murders and injuries) from mass public shootings in 2015 than the US has suffered during Obama’s entire presidency (UPDATED 524 to 428) - Crime Prevention Research Center

Joe can only go off the emotion he feels, living in his mother's basement.

 

[Centinel]

"Gun control" is such a vague, catch-all phrase. I know how important bumper-sticker sloganeering is nowadays, but maybe we could get more specific on the individual issues within the overall gun control issue.

Let's start off with background checks. It seems to me that doing a background check on anyone who wants to purchase a gun - universal background checks - makes perfect sense and there is no reason why gun shows, for example, should have any kind of exemption.

A strong of Americans can see a value in this. Poll shows bipartisan support for expanding background checks -- Conservatives, if you disagree with that, what are your reasons?
.

If you're talking about a federal law mandating background checks, then we first have to identify which of congress' enumerated powers would permit the enactment of such a law. Without the power to do so, enacting such a law would violate the constitution.

Why don't you tell us? You raised the point, so within the 18 clauses of Article I, Section 8 can we find one or more of those enumerated powers authorizing Congress to mandate background checks?

I don't see any power that would allow congress to mandate background checks for all sales.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the both the Commerce and Necessary and Proper clauses.

I'm very familiar with both clauses, thanks.

So are you saying that possession of a gun is commerce? Commerce among the several states?

Let's say I build myself a gun (fairly easy to do). Is that commerce? If so, with whom in another state have I engaged in commerce?

 

[the_human_being]

In order to enforce a background check on private sellers the Government would need to register all firearms. Without registration there is no legal way the Government can prove a private citizen sold their firearm to anyone else without a background check. Making the law unenforceable. Registration is nothing more than a means for the Government to seize weapons at their convenience.

and that would be a bad thing, why?

If you guys are arguing that you can't own your penis surrogates....oh, sorry, Constituationally mandated rights without having to tolerate 33,000 deaths, 70,000 injuries and 1.5 million gun crimes a year, because you refuse to take the actions to keep those things from happening, then I really have no problem giving up the "right".

You don't need a gun, you want a gun.

Chief Justice JoeB???

 

[the_human_being]

In order to enforce a background check on private sellers the Government would need to register all firearms. Without registration there is no legal way the Government can prove a private citizen sold their firearm to anyone else without a background check. Making the law unenforceable. Registration is nothing more than a means for the Government to seize weapons at their convenience.

Isn't it totally amazing the total lack of common sense the President possesses? Unfathomable.

 

[blackhawk]

There are background checks at gun shows for licensed dealers though not from private individuals I don't go to many gun shows but I suspect most of the purchases at them are through licensed dealers. I'm not sure that having background checks by private individuals selling at a gun show, to a neighbor or on something like craigs list is doable or enforceable.

 

[Missourian]

There are background checks at gun shows for licensed dealers though not from private individuals I don't go to many gun shows but I suspect most of the purchases at them are through licensed dealers. I'm not sure that having background checks by private individuals selling at a gun show, to a neighbor or on something like craigs list is doable or enforceable.

I go to the gun show at Springfield's Empire Fairgrounds on a pretty regular basis. The guns are overpriced but I get to handle firearms that are rarely seen in these parts...being to exotic or esoteric for local gun shops to carry. There are usually less than 10 people...private citizens...walking around with a long gun or shotgun for sale...I've never seen a pistol or modern sporting rifle sold this way. Those are the only folks at the gun show who are not required to perform background checks. The guy making a private sale of his Belgian Twist double barrel shotgun.

 

[BluesLegend]

"Gun control" is such a vague, catch-all phrase. I know how important bumper-sticker sloganeering is nowadays, but maybe we could get more specific on the individual issues within the overall gun control issue.

Let's start off with background checks. It seems to me that doing a background check on anyone who wants to purchase a gun - universal background checks - makes perfect sense and there is no reason why gun shows, for example, should have any kind of exemption.

A strong of Americans can see a value in this. Poll shows bipartisan support for expanding background checks -- Conservatives, if you disagree with that, what are your reasons?
.

Oh good lord...guess how many mass shootings were committed with a gun purchased at a gun show? Yeah none. So what do you hope to accomplish with additional gun control laws aimed at gun shows? Isn't this really just another example of asshole gun control advocates lying and fabricating, their intention to pass as many gun control laws as possible by any means possible?

Second for fucks sake when was the last time you attended a gun show? 98% of the people selling guns at gun shows are dealers who are already required to run a background check on anyone buying a gun.

Third there's law enforcement and security and cameras all over at gun shows, its the last place a criminal will show up to purchase a gun.

Try to educate yourself better before starting threads this stupid.