Liberals now calling fetus an "organ of her own body"

[Obamanation]

only pro-abortion if that is the choice right?

pro murder would be more appropriate though...

As I stated and you apparently ignored, once again proving my last post correct: isn't it nice that Mr. and Mrs. H had a choice what to do with her body and the outcome of the pregnancy?

Oh, but somehow you read that as me believing they should have aborted the fetus. Wow. That type of stupidity is exceptional.

That isn't what I said at all, slow one...

I said you are only pro abortion if that is the choice...

"pro choice" is just a nice label you wackjob lefties apply to coverup the fact that you are willing to sit by and allow others to kill a baby in an effort to keep from personal resposibilties and accountability. It's sick!

 

[Mr. H.]

If a fetus is not part of the woman's body, and is separate from her body, as the pro lifers insist it is, then why is it that if we sever the umbilical cord, the fetus will die? Surely, if the attachment was severed, fetus would still survive, after all, it is a separate being, right, lifers?

I cut my daughter's umbilical. Hell I caught the kid in my hands right out of the poot chute. The first words out of my mouth? "She looks just like your mother!" And believe it or not, I happen to like my mother in law.

Anyhow- The little critter spent a week in neonatal intensive. She was a preemie. Oxygen dome, wires, monitors- the whole nine yards.

I stood and watched while the attending nurse shoved her fist up my wife's cooter trying to recover the remaining placenta, while her blood flowed over the bedsheets.

The next morning Mrs. H. fainted in the shower, so I pulled the emergency rope and you should have seen the commotion. They refused to give her a transfusion... AIDS and all. Who do I thank for that?

I could have asked the attending physician to sever my daughter's umbilical cord before she was born, but I figured I'd wait around and see what happened.

Lo and behold! She's a 17 year old Junior at a prestegious arts academy high school majoring in dance and getting straight A's.

Damn, if only I cut that umbilical sooner....

And the point is...?? You know yourself that you wouldn't have a daughter if you had severed that attachment at 8 weeks. Because a fetus requires an attachment to the woman in order to survive. THAT is what lifers are denying.

A little backstory... when Mrs. H. was 8 weeks pregnant, the ultrasound revealed indications of Down's Syndrome. So the doctor told us to "go down to the coffee shop and discuss your 'options'".

Which we did.

And lo, our daughter was born. Perfect, happy, healthy.

Noomi, you know I like ya but you must have been a Nazi in a former life.

Doctors will tell everyone to 'discuss their options' when there is an indication of Down Syndrome. Its nothing new.

Why did you discuss your options when you both already knew you were going to have the baby? What was there to discuss?

You are a sick fucking bitch. Go and die like my kids didn't.
You don't deserve the mention of the honor of their lives.
Crawl you whore.

 

[Noomi]

^if you didn't want to hear opinions, you shouldn't have posted your personal story, because its obvious that nothing I said would have been enough for you.

Do I have to put you on ignore, too? And here I thought we had a mutual respect for each other. Obviously not.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Since when does a transplanted heart grow and develop?

A tapeworm in a person is not part of a person and it does grow and develop.

Does the Constitution protect the rights of a tapeworm?

Tapeworm has human DNA??

You are continually swinging and missing.. but it is fun watching you flail around

A tumor has human DNA.

Feel better now?

Show me where in the Constitution a fetus is protected as a person; you're the self proclaimed constitutional expert.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Since when does a transplanted heart grow and develop?

A tapeworm in a person is not part of a person and it does grow and develop.

Does the Constitution protect the rights of a tapeworm?

How absurd. Likening a tapeworm to a child. Sicko.

I didn't. The other poster did. The other poster insists that a fetus is not part of a woman's body.

The other poster insists that the fetus is something separate and distinct from the woman that has attached itself to her and is feeding off her and growing. That is exactly what a tapeworm is...

...that is the other poster's description.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Not fused? I don't think you actually understand how fetal development works. The placenta literally burrows into the uterus, fusing the tissues together. In fact, if you go to the wikipedia article on placenta, it uses the word FUSION to describe the inseparable connection during development. The placenta and umbilical cord carry the nutrients pumped to it from the mother's circulation to the baby. Oxygen, vitamins, amino acids, and other basic building blocks required for development do not spontaneously come from the baby, nor are they magically produced by the placenta.

You really don't know much about this topic on which you proclaim understanding, do you?

So no, they are not individual separate beings.




You seem to continue confusing the words UNIQUE and SEPARATE. These are not the same, and one does not denote the other. The placenta has its own DNA that is different than the mother. It too is not a separate unique being.

You either read something that I didn't say or I wasn't clear enough in what I did say. What I said was that fetus and mother are not fused. Are they joined together via the umbilical cord and placenta (which are fused)? Yes. Joined together does not mean they are one entity. Fetus and mother are two separate entities, two separate beings, one growing/developing within the other, not two beings fused together as one being. They are two separate beings.

If they were not individual separate beings then when a woman aborted a fetus part of her would also die/be changed/cease to be. When a woman has an abortion the only thing that no longer continues to exist is the fetus (a developing being), which is a separate individual, a separate human being. It is unique in that no other exactly like is has ever been or will be again.

If they are one being why was Scott Peterson charged with two counts of murder?

I still think you're missing something vital here. OK let's backup. The umbilical cord is part of the fetus. It's directly connected. On the other end, it's directly part of the placenta. The placenta is fused to the uterus. OK now I know this is tricky logic here, but if A is fused to B, and B is fused to C, then A is fused to C via B. The fetus is fused to the mother by way of placenta, which happens to also be fetal in origin. So to summarize, a structure directly carrying fetal DNA is directly fused to a structure carrying mother's DNA. If you sever any part of that connection, the fetus dies.

PUT ANOTHER WAY: IF YOU SEPARATE THE TWO AT ANY POINT, THE FETUS DIES. So you should probably stop claiming they are separate. You can still use the word unique, just realize it has nothing to do with anything being individual or separate.

As for what happens when a woman has an abortion: she loses both the fetus and the inner part of her uterus that was supporting it. Everything involved in the fusion goes, mother and fetus alike. Luckily, women can regrow that lost tissue. Or do I need to explain menstruation as well?

When a woman has an abortion or gives birth no part of her body is gone. The fetus is not a part of her body, the fetus is a separate being. Umbilical cord and placenta are temporary only present during pregnancy. Lining of uterus leaves every month via her period.

Are you injuring yourself in your stretch saying that a fetus is not a separate human being?

If woman and fetus are not two separate beings then why was Scott Peterson charged with two counts of murder instead of one?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Since when does a transplanted heart grow and develop?

A tapeworm in a person is not part of a person and it does grow and develop.

Does the Constitution protect the rights of a tapeworm?

You sure missed a lot of schooling, didn't you?

You've yet to show us where the Constitution protects the rights of a fetus as a person. Since you obviously cannot do that, then the fetus has no constitutional rights as a person.

That makes the fetus a part of a woman's body that as far as the Constitution is concerned she has the right of privacy to either carry to term or abort.

Do you contest any part of that?

 

[NYcarbineer]

You either read something that I didn't say or I wasn't clear enough in what I did say. What I said was that fetus and mother are not fused. Are they joined together via the umbilical cord and placenta (which are fused)? Yes. Joined together does not mean they are one entity. Fetus and mother are two separate entities, two separate beings, one growing/developing within the other, not two beings fused together as one being. They are two separate beings.

If they were not individual separate beings then when a woman aborted a fetus part of her would also die/be changed/cease to be. When a woman has an abortion the only thing that no longer continues to exist is the fetus (a developing being), which is a separate individual, a separate human being. It is unique in that no other exactly like is has ever been or will be again.

If they are one being why was Scott Peterson charged with two counts of murder?

I still think you're missing something vital here. OK let's backup. The umbilical cord is part of the fetus. It's directly connected. On the other end, it's directly part of the placenta. The placenta is fused to the uterus. OK now I know this is tricky logic here, but if A is fused to B, and B is fused to C, then A is fused to C via B. The fetus is fused to the mother by way of placenta, which happens to also be fetal in origin. So to summarize, a structure directly carrying fetal DNA is directly fused to a structure carrying mother's DNA. If you sever any part of that connection, the fetus dies.

PUT ANOTHER WAY: IF YOU SEPARATE THE TWO AT ANY POINT, THE FETUS DIES. So you should probably stop claiming they are separate. You can still use the word unique, just realize it has nothing to do with anything being individual or separate.

As for what happens when a woman has an abortion: she loses both the fetus and the inner part of her uterus that was supporting it. Everything involved in the fusion goes, mother and fetus alike. Luckily, women can regrow that lost tissue. Or do I need to explain menstruation as well?

When a woman has an abortion or gives birth no part of her body is gone. The fetus is not a part of her body, the fetus is a separate being. Umbilical cord and placenta are temporary only present during pregnancy. Lining of uterus leaves every month via her period.

Are you injuring yourself in your stretch saying that a fetus is not a separate human being?

If woman and fetus are not two separate beings then why was Scott Peterson charged with two counts of murder instead of one?

The Constitution gives no personhood rights to the fetus.

 

[Zoom-boing]

If a fetus is not part of the woman's body, and is separate from her body, as the pro lifers insist it is, then why is it that if we sever the umbilical cord, the fetus will die? Surely, if the attachment was severed, fetus would still survive, after all, it is a separate being, right, lifers?

Because they haven't reached a developmental stage where they can survive outside the womb. That doesn't make them any less of a human being.

This isn't rocket science, people. Humans reproduce humans. Prior to sperm fertilizing egg there is no human. When fertilization takes place and those cells begin to divide, that is the moment when a new human being comes into existence; it is the very beginning stage of development of that particular human being. From that point on it continues through various stages of development both in and out of utero, but it is a human being all along.

The lengths that pro-"choicers" go through to deny this is simply unbelievable. Abortion is a woman's choice and the choice of abortion ends the life of another separate, unique, individual human being. I know you want to ease your conscience of what abortion actually does, which is why you jump through hoops to de-humanize fetuses. Too fucking bad. They are living human beings and abortion ends their life.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Is it part of the person's body or not? It doesn't have the same DNA.

Without medical intervention the body would reject it because it does not recognize it as part of itself.

The same can be said for fetuses where the mom has negative blood and the fetus doesn't.

The retarded from the pro-"choice" crowd in here is palpable.

They seem to really believe that fetuses are organs, that fetuses are not separate beings from the mother, that fetuses are the same being as the mother, that a fertilized egg is the same thing as the contents of a stomach after eating, and that fetuses are, for some peculiar reason, the same thing as a transplanted heart.

I always find it amusing when hicks can no longer engage in debate and instead need to make these over-exaggerated statements to make themselves feel better. "OMG THAT GUY THINKS BABIES ARE TAPEWORMS AND LUNCH NOW BECAUSE I CANT FOLLOW A SIMPLE CONTRASTING EXAMPLE!!!!" Hilarious.

Fetuses are NOT separate beings from the mother. This is fact. If you SEPARATE a fetus from the mother early, that tissue DIES. This is pretty much an irrefutable litmus test for if something is separate or not. There really isn't a better indicator of separability past COMPLETE DEMISE.

As for the question about charging someone for crimes against two people, that discussion gets into a deeper understanding of why murder is wrong. Seeing as most of you can't follow simple contrasting examples, I doubt you possess much understanding of deeper ethical discussions. But to negate the entire pretext altogether: law is not biology. If a judge deems a pregnant woman a space alien, it doesn't have much bearing on the separability of mother from fetus.

YOU state that fetus and woman are NOT two separate beings. Following your (ill)logic then surely someone who kills a pregnant woman would be charged ONE count. You. Are. Wrong.

 

[Zoom-boing]

If a fetus is not part of the woman's body, and is separate from her body, as the pro lifers insist it is, then why is it that if we sever the umbilical cord, the fetus will die? Surely, if the attachment was severed, fetus would still survive, after all, it is a separate being, right, lifers?

I cut my daughter's umbilical. Hell I caught the kid in my hands right out of the poot chute. The first words out of my mouth? "She looks just like your mother!" And believe it or not, I happen to like my mother in law.

Anyhow- The little critter spent a week in neonatal intensive. She was a preemie. Oxygen dome, wires, monitors- the whole nine yards.

I stood and watched while the attending nurse shoved her fist up my wife's cooter trying to recover the remaining placenta, while her blood flowed over the bedsheets.

The next morning Mrs. H. fainted in the shower, so I pulled the emergency rope and you should have seen the commotion. They refused to give her a transfusion... AIDS and all. Who do I thank for that?

I could have asked the attending physician to sever my daughter's umbilical cord before she was born, but I figured I'd wait around and see what happened.

Lo and behold! She's a 17 year old Junior at a prestegious arts academy high school majoring in dance and getting straight A's.

Damn, if only I cut that umbilical sooner....

And the point is...?? You know yourself that you wouldn't have a daughter if you had severed that attachment at 8 weeks. Because a fetus requires an attachment to the woman in order to survive. THAT is what lifers are denying.

A little backstory... when Mrs. H. was 8 weeks pregnant, the ultrasound revealed indications of Down's Syndrome. So the doctor told us to "go down to the coffee shop and discuss your 'options'".

Which we did.

And lo, our daughter was born. Perfect, happy, healthy.

Noomi, you know I like ya but you must have been a Nazi in a former life.

Doctors will tell everyone to 'discuss their options' when there is an indication of Down Syndrome. Its nothing new.

Why did you discuss your options when you both already knew you were going to have the baby? What was there to discuss?

Not true. No one is saying that woman and fetus aren't intertwined, that the fetus cannot develop without this connection. Yes, the fetus will die if you severe that connection. And? What we are saying is that the fetus is a human being. A fetus is not the woman, it is a living, growing, own individual human being.

 

[FA_Q2]

A tapeworm in a person is not part of a person and it does grow and develop.

Does the Constitution protect the rights of a tapeworm?

You sure missed a lot of schooling, didn't you?

You've yet to show us where the Constitution protects the rights of a fetus as a person. Since you obviously cannot do that, then the fetus has no constitutional rights as a person.

That makes the fetus a part of a woman's body that as far as the Constitution is concerned she has the right of privacy to either carry to term or abort.

Do you contest any part of that?

That is not entirely true. The constitution does not make any distinction at all about who does and does not get ‘rights’ and at what time they do. Children are not delineated in the constitution yet it is quite clear that a child does not enjoy the full rights that an adult does. No court case supports your supposition that a fetus enjoys no constitutional protections. That is the legal basis for most late term abortion bans which do exist and are quite constitutional. Clearly, fetuses do obtain SOME protections. The debate is at what point does a fetus’ right to life overcome the woman’s right to do what she wants with her body. At some point that can and does occur.

 

[Mr. H.]

^if you didn't want to hear opinions, you shouldn't have posted your personal story, because its obvious that nothing I said would have been enough for you.

Do I have to put you on ignore, too? And here I thought we had a mutual respect for each other. Obviously not.

Ahhhh booze posting again LOL.
No worries, Noomers.

 

[Mac1958]

.

Holy crap. I'd be considered pro-choice, and we can argue that a fetus is not a "person" or a "human being" or an "astronaut", but to claim that it's not a separate human life with its own DNA, some kind of "organ", is just not intellectually honest. This kind of approach is why I'm not fond of the arguments from either side of this issue.

.

 

[Zoom-boing]

A tapeworm in a person is not part of a person and it does grow and develop.

Does the Constitution protect the rights of a tapeworm?

How absurd. Likening a tapeworm to a child. Sicko.

I didn't. The other poster did. The other poster insists that a fetus is not part of a woman's body.

The other poster insists that the fetus is something separate and distinct from the woman that has attached itself to her and is feeding off her and growing. That is exactly what a tapeworm is...

...that is the other poster's description.

No. Not 'something'. A human being.

Does a tapeworm come into existence in a woman via her egg and sperm meeting/fertilizing? Is a tapeworm a human being?

 

[Zoom-boing]

A tapeworm in a person is not part of a person and it does grow and develop.

Does the Constitution protect the rights of a tapeworm?

You sure missed a lot of schooling, didn't you?

You've yet to show us where the Constitution protects the rights of a fetus as a person. Since you obviously cannot do that, then the fetus has no constitutional rights as a person.

That makes the fetus a part of a woman's body that as far as the Constitution is concerned she has the right of privacy to either carry to term or abort.

Do you contest any part of that?

Yes, it is legal in the U.S. for her to abort. What she is aborting is a human being that was conceived in and developing inside of her body. It is not HER body that is being aborted, it is not HER body whose life is ending, it is not HER body that will no longer exist when an abortion happens. Deny all you want, this is fact.

A fetus has no rights? Then why is late term abortion illegal? Why was Scott Peterson charged with two counts, rather than one?

 

[Mr. H.]

If a fetus is not part of the woman's body, and is separate from her body, as the pro lifers insist it is, then why is it that if we sever the umbilical cord, the fetus will die? Surely, if the attachment was severed, fetus would still survive, after all, it is a separate being, right, lifers?

I cut my daughter's umbilical. Hell I caught the kid in my hands right out of the poot chute. The first words out of my mouth? "She looks just like your mother!" And believe it or not, I happen to like my mother in law.

Anyhow- The little critter spent a week in neonatal intensive. She was a preemie. Oxygen dome, wires, monitors- the whole nine yards.

I stood and watched while the attending nurse shoved her fist up my wife's cooter trying to recover the remaining placenta, while her blood flowed over the bedsheets.

The next morning Mrs. H. fainted in the shower, so I pulled the emergency rope and you should have seen the commotion. They refused to give her a transfusion... AIDS and all. Who do I thank for that?

I could have asked the attending physician to sever my daughter's umbilical cord before she was born, but I figured I'd wait around and see what happened.

Lo and behold! She's a 17 year old Junior at a prestegious arts academy high school majoring in dance and getting straight A's.

Damn, if only I cut that umbilical sooner....

And the point is...?? You know yourself that you wouldn't have a daughter if you had severed that attachment at 8 weeks. Because a fetus requires an attachment to the woman in order to survive. THAT is what lifers are denying.

A little backstory... when Mrs. H. was 8 weeks pregnant, the ultrasound revealed indications of Down's Syndrome. So the doctor told us to "go down to the coffee shop and discuss your 'options'".

Which we did.

And lo, our daughter was born. Perfect, happy, healthy.

Noomi, you know I like ya but you must have been a Nazi in a former life.

Doctors will tell everyone to 'discuss their options' when there is an indication of Down Syndrome. Its nothing new.

Why did you discuss your options when you both already knew you were going to have the baby? What was there to discuss?

*sobered up*
(albeit hung over)

I had no idea how my wife would react. She is quite the Liberal after all.
We just sat in stunned silence and I decided to let her make the first move.

All she said was "y'know, I feel that in life you take what's dealt and move on".
And I said "yup". And that was the end of the conversation.
After all it was our son/daughter we were talking about.

Had she reacted differently, I honestly can't tell you what my answer would have been.

I remember when we went in for the very first exam/consultation. Before the first ultrasound. We were immediately handed pamphlets on abortion. By the front desk clerk. And this was a sizeable well established hospital. IMO that's pretty fucked up.

Anyhow that's me and you're you. And that's cool. You just happened to fall under Mr. H.'s drunk bus LOL.

You all are going to see this from me time to time. You can ignore my occasional alcohol-fueled rants, but don't put me on ignore ok?

 

[NYcarbineer]

You sure missed a lot of schooling, didn't you?

You've yet to show us where the Constitution protects the rights of a fetus as a person. Since you obviously cannot do that, then the fetus has no constitutional rights as a person.

That makes the fetus a part of a woman's body that as far as the Constitution is concerned she has the right of privacy to either carry to term or abort.

Do you contest any part of that?

Yes, it is legal in the U.S. for her to abort. What she is aborting is a human being that was conceived in and developing inside of her body. It is not HER body that is being aborted, it is not HER body whose life is ending, it is not HER body that will no longer exist when an abortion happens. Deny all you want, this is fact.

A fetus has no rights? Then why is late term abortion illegal? Why was Scott Peterson charged with two counts, rather than one?

Not one person on the right on this forum can read. Seriously. Show me one.

I said the fetus has no constitutional rights as a person. The Constitution. You've heard of it, right?

Later term fetuses can be protected at the state level.

 

[NYcarbineer]

How absurd. Likening a tapeworm to a child. Sicko.

I didn't. The other poster did. The other poster insists that a fetus is not part of a woman's body.

The other poster insists that the fetus is something separate and distinct from the woman that has attached itself to her and is feeding off her and growing. That is exactly what a tapeworm is...

...that is the other poster's description.

No. Not 'something'. A human being.

Does a tapeworm come into existence in a woman via her egg and sperm meeting/fertilizing? Is a tapeworm a human being?

Are you trying to appeal to my emotions with the words 'human being'? You're wasting my time.
As far as abortion goes, I care about what the law is, or what the law should be, the former being reality, the latter being my opinions, whether they match reality or not.

 

[Freewill]

Abortion control must be returned to the states and they can do what they want with it.

LifeSiteNews Mobile | Noam Chomsky: The fetus is an 'organ' of woman?s body

Thu Apr 04, 2013

DUBLIN, April 4, 2013 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Noam Chomsky, the most cited academic in the world, said that an unborn baby is “an organ” and a part of the mother's “own body” during a recent guest lecture at an Irish college.

"There is a strong debate at the moment with regards to a woman's right to control an organ of her own body - namely the fetus,” Chomsky said during a question and answer session at University College Dublin on Tuesday night. “There is legislation being enacted in several U.S. states to define personhood as a fertilized egg.”

"Pretty soon you can imagine legislation prohibiting the washing of hands because thousands of cells are flaked off that could be turned into a stem cell and you can grow a fetus - so you're killing a person,” he said.

“It's attacks on women's rights," he concluded

Strange how you fetus masterbaters care only about fetus's not children who are already living

Not so strange that the pro-choice to kill crowd lies about the subject. I suppose to try and relieve their guilt for supporting eugenics.

If nothing else you expose your reason, and the liberals left, for abortion, reduce the number of children that need supported.