Lois Lerner to take the 5th. Again.

[JoeB131]

Guy, it has everything to do with the fact that 1 in 4 has inadequate or no health insurance.

The best technology in the world doesn't help you if you can't access it.

Not only do we have all the bad stats I stated, but on top of that, we spend more per capita than any country in the world, for these much worse results.

 

[Freewill]

[

as to your "black dude in the whitehouse" it has nothing to do with obama being half black, it has to do with his policies and ideas. you don't like marxist, collectivist, or socialist, but thats what he is---------read his books, look at his mentors. Its who he is.

Except big corporations have regained most of what they lost in Bush's recession, he saved the Auto industry and the Banking Industries. For a Marxist, he's making a very poor showing of it.


Sorry, dude, this is why you guys are nuts.

Bush actually saved the auto industry, Obama tagged along afterwards. His, and your claims, get three Pinocchios

President Obama?s phony accounting on the auto industry bailout - The Washington Post

 

[JoeB131]

That link has nothing to do with what you claimed.

do you even bother to check these after you google?

 

[Freewill]

Guy, it has everything to do with the fact that 1 in 4 has inadequate or no health insurance.

The best technology in the world doesn't help you if you can't access it.

Not only do we have all the bad stats I stated, but on top of that, we spend more per capita than any country in the world, for these much worse results.

Your response is like every other mindless response, all talking points. I provided you links to discussions on the subject. Dude if you are going to be overweight no healthcare is going to save you from yourself. Granted the life expectancy is not what maybe it could be but it has way more to do with life style then healthcare.

Why do we pay more? Well why don't you ask the Unions to take a pay cut or a doctor to operate for less. Or why did Obama enter into some secret agreement with the drug companies which in reality are gouging our eyes out? Why can't we mail order drugs from Canada? What we do have is the best health care in the world and to do so it expensive.

I still say that we should pass some sort of law that makes healthcare affordable for all.

 

[Freewill]

That link has nothing to do with what you claimed.

do you even bother to check these after you google?

Sigh, you made the claim that Obama saved the auto industry. He extended the loans GWB started and then lied about it.

From the linked article:

According to the White House, Obama is counting only the $8.5 billion loan that he made to Chrysler, not the $4 billion that President George W. Bush extended in his last month in office. However, Obama was not a disinterested observer at the time. According to The Washington Post article on the Bush loan, the incoming president called Bush’s action a “necessary step . . . to help avoid a collapse of our auto industry that would have had devastating consequences for our economy and our workers.”

Under the administration’s math, the U.S. government will receive $11.2 billion back from Chrysler, far more than the $8.5 billion Obama extended.

Through this sleight-of-hand accounting, the White House can conveniently ignore Bush’s loan, but even the Treasury Department admits that U.S. taxpayers will not recoup about $1.3 billion of the entire $12.5 billion investment when all is said and done.

 

[Freewill]

Here dude is a link to discuss the differences that taking account fatal injuries do to the numbers:

Political Calculations: Natural Life Expectancy in the United States

Really though I think you could do better then to get your information from Jeff Daniels.

 

[JoeB131]

Guy, it has everything to do with the fact that 1 in 4 has inadequate or no health insurance.

The best technology in the world doesn't help you if you can't access it.

Not only do we have all the bad stats I stated, but on top of that, we spend more per capita than any country in the world, for these much worse results.

Your response is like every other mindless response, all talking points. I provided you links to discussions on the subject. Dude if you are going to be overweight no healthcare is going to save you from yourself. Granted the life expectancy is not what maybe it could be but it has way more to do with life style then healthcare.

Why do we pay more? Well why don't you ask the Unions to take a pay cut or a doctor to operate for less. Or why did Obama enter into some secret agreement with the drug companies which in reality are gouging our eyes out? Why can't we mail order drugs from Canada? What we do have is the best health care in the world and to do so it expensive.

I still say that we should pass some sort of law that makes healthcare affordable for all.

We pay more becaue too many people are making a profit for non-value added activities.

simple enough solution- Single payer like Canada or Germany or the UK have.

Problem solved.

 

[Redfish]

Guy, it has everything to do with the fact that 1 in 4 has inadequate or no health insurance.

The best technology in the world doesn't help you if you can't access it.

Not only do we have all the bad stats I stated, but on top of that, we spend more per capita than any country in the world, for these much worse results.

bullshit, uninsured does not mean untreated. No one in the USA was denied medical care before ACA----NO ONE !

We spend more because we allow drug companies, hospitals, and doctors to overcharge for their services and products, because doctors have to practice defensive medicine because of greedy sleezy lawyers.

we need tort reform, we need caps on medical costs, we need to cut the patent time for new drugs. We DON'T need obamacare.

 

[Redfish]

Guy, it has everything to do with the fact that 1 in 4 has inadequate or no health insurance.

The best technology in the world doesn't help you if you can't access it.

Not only do we have all the bad stats I stated, but on top of that, we spend more per capita than any country in the world, for these much worse results.

Your response is like every other mindless response, all talking points. I provided you links to discussions on the subject. Dude if you are going to be overweight no healthcare is going to save you from yourself. Granted the life expectancy is not what maybe it could be but it has way more to do with life style then healthcare.

Why do we pay more? Well why don't you ask the Unions to take a pay cut or a doctor to operate for less. Or why did Obama enter into some secret agreement with the drug companies which in reality are gouging our eyes out? Why can't we mail order drugs from Canada? What we do have is the best health care in the world and to do so it expensive.

I still say that we should pass some sort of law that makes healthcare affordable for all.

We pay more becaue too many people are making a profit for non-value added activities.

simple enough solution- Single payer like Canada or Germany or the UK have.

Problem solved.

Do you understand what 'single payer' means? it means that the govt taxes everyone and then chooses who gets medical treatment.
Ask Brits and Canadians if it works for them. Ask them why they come to the US if they have any serious illnesses. Ask them how long they have to wait for a knee replacement or an MRI.

careful what you wish for, joe. It could kill you.

 

[Redfish]

[

as to your "black dude in the whitehouse" it has nothing to do with obama being half black, it has to do with his policies and ideas. you don't like marxist, collectivist, or socialist, but thats what he is---------read his books, look at his mentors. Its who he is.

Except big corporations have regained most of what they lost in Bush's recession, he saved the Auto industry and the Banking Industries. For a Marxist, he's making a very poor showing of it.


Sorry, dude, this is why you guys are nuts.

Damn but you are stupid------------Obama did not save the auto industry---he saved the UAW so they could continue to funnel workers money to the DNC.

the auto bailout wasn't about saving GM and Chrysler, it was all about saving the union.

 

[Tresha91203]

Infant mortality is calculated differently country to country. The US includes premature births with no chance of survival as "born alive" if they are alive at birth, even if only very briefly. Most other countries do not count those as "born alive," so not included in infant mortality or life expectancy numbers.

HealthReformQuestions.com - AMERICAN HEALTH CARE: FACTS VS. MYTHS

Also, our availability and use of fertility treatments brings our numbers down even further. So, what should count as a positive for US health care actually counts as a negative. It often takes several tries, or we end up with multiples who don't all make it. This is included both in our infant mortality rate and life expectancy, but is not in many other countries.

Infant mortality | The Economist

[

its actually worse than that. obozocare will cost the average american more money, give him/her less care, and destroy the best medical system in the world.

We have the lowest life expectency in the industrialized world, the highest infant mortality rate, 1 of 4 have inadequate or no insurance, and 62% of bankruptcies are linked to medical crisis. You have a funny notion of "best inthe world"

[
there will be as many uninsured after full implementation as there were before it was passed.

No, but if you need to believe that, go ahead.

[

but, you are correct, the insurance companies are guaranteed their profits---our tax dollars will be used for that.

the sad thing is that there was no problem that needed fixing, no one in the USA was denied medical care before obozocare. NO ONE.

Yeah, all they had to do was show up at an Emergency Room and get saddled with enormas debt for life!

That was a great system.

 

[Redfish]

amazing how this thread has gone from Lerner taking the 5th to the failures of obamacare.

can we get back on topic?

innocent people do not need the 5th. end of story.

 

[Tresha91203]

amazing how this thread has gone from Lerner taking the 5th to the failures of obamacare.

can we get back on topic?

innocent people do not need the 5th. end of story.

You are right. I apologize.

P.S. Every time I see you, I want to drive down to Fourchon.

 

[JoeB131]

[

bullshit, uninsured does not mean untreated. No one in the USA was denied medical care before ACA----NO ONE !

We spend more because we allow drug companies, hospitals, and doctors to overcharge for their services and products, because doctors have to practice defensive medicine because of greedy sleezy lawyers.

we need tort reform, we need caps on medical costs, we need to cut the patent time for new drugs. We DON'T need obamacare.

guy, most people without insurance don't walk into the emergency room until they are VERY sick, usually costing a lot more to treat.

And, no, frankly, I want my doctor practicing defensive medicine. 96,000 American die every year because their caregivers make mistakes.

They tried Tort Reform IN Texas (Land of Retards) and guess what, medical costs didn't go down because Doctors could avoid the consequences of maiming their patients.

 

[JoeB131]

[qu

Do you understand what 'single payer' means? it means that the govt taxes everyone and then chooses who gets medical treatment.
Ask Brits and Canadians if it works for them. Ask them why they come to the US if they have any serious illnesses. Ask them how long they have to wait for a knee replacement or an MRI.

careful what you wish for, joe. It could kill you.

Uh, guy, I know the insurance companies like spreading these horror stories, but here't the thing.

The UK and Canada have longer life expectencies than we do.
They have lower infant mortality rates than we do.
People don't go bankrupt when they have a medical issue. (and they don't get fired from their jobs!)
Oh, yeah, and here's the kicker. They only spend about half per capita of what we do.

And far MOre Americans go to Canada for free prescription drugs than Rich Canadians fly down here becaue they dont want to share a hospital room with a poor person.

 

[JoeB131]

amazing how this thread has gone from Lerner taking the 5th to the failures of obamacare.

can we get back on topic?

innocent people do not need the 5th. end of story.

Meh, innocent people need protections form overzealous prosecutors.

Issa should either prove his case, offer Lerner immunity, or shut the fuck up.

Or he cold just save us all time and shut the fuck up.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Lerner's invocation of the privilege against self incrimination is supposed to be based upon a rational belief that her words could get her confronted with criminal consequences for her own actions.

One does not need to take the 5th for behavior that is not criminal.

Question: "Did you drive through that CLEARLY green light?"

Answer: "I decline to answer that question on the ground that it might tend to incriminate me."

Question: "Really? You think you can get in trouble for STOPPING at a GREEN light OR FOR proceeding through a GREEN light??"

It actually IS laughable.

If you did help some bank robber to rob a bank by tying up the bank guard, you would pretty much have a solid ground to refuse to answer any questions about your behavior at that particular location at that particular time. By contrast, if you are asked about what you did to help the bank robber AFTER you have already been tried for the crime (and either been found not guilty or even if you were found guilty and did your time), you are NOT exposed to any further criminal sanctions. So, then, you have NO basis to take the 5th.

By taking the 5th, Lerner is expressing concern about possible criminal exposure for her behavior.

I will say this much, however: there's no further point in dragging her before the committee once she invokes the 5th unless they are prepared to grant her immunity in exchange.

 

[JoeB131]

again, a perfect example of why an innocent person might want to invoke his Fifth Amendment Privilage.

Scooter Libby.

Scooter Libby was asked about if he brought up the name of Valerie Plame to Tim Russert and other reporters. He said he had, but ONLY after he was asked.

Tim got on the stand and testified that Scooter volunteered Plame's name unbidden.

Now, It is just as likely that Tim was lying as Scooter. He had just as much of a dog in the fight (still wanting to be invited to the parties with the beautiful people) as Scooter did.

Or it might be that both men honestly remember the conversations from six months ago differently.

SO really, the smart thing he should have done was not testified at all until Fitzgerald placed all his cards on the table, if he ever did.


Same thing with Lerner. She has no idea how other people are going to testify or what they might claim to save their own asses. Let Issa make his case, if he has one.

THAT'S why we have a Fifth Amendment.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

again, a perfect example of why an innocent person might want to invoke his Fifth Amendment Privilage.

Scooter Libby.

Scooter Libby was asked about if he brought up the name of Valerie Plame to Tim Russert and other reporters. He said he had, but ONLY after he was asked.

Tim got on the stand and testified that Scooter volunteered Plame's name unbidden.

Now, It is just as likely that Tim was lying as Scooter. He had just as much of a dog in the fight (still wanting to be invited to the parties with the beautiful people) as Scooter did.

Or it might be that both men honestly remember the conversations from six months ago differently.

SO really, the smart thing he should have done was not testified at all until Fitzgerald placed all his cards on the table, if he ever did.


Same thing with Lerner. She has no idea how other people are going to testify or what they might claim to save their own asses. Let Issa make his case, if he has one.

THAT'S why we have a Fifth Amendment.

Not such a perfect example. It is instead an example of the witch hunt nature of the persecution in that case.

As a rule, one does not get -- and cannot get -- "immunity" for perjury. The whole POINT of immunization is that it frees you (in theory) to speak; and when you speak under oath you are kinda obligated to tell the truth.

Who first brought up the fucking name of mere analyst Valerie Plame was hardly something that SHOULD have ever resulted in any prosecution in the first place. And yes, two people (with no lying involved) CAN testify to differing recollections.

But don't get so far off the beaten path. Lerner is not being asked questions about who first mentioned some person's name. SHE, as a fucking IRS official, was being asked questions concerning whether and to what extent the IRS was engaged in improper POLITICAL questioning directed at the TEA PARTY. THAT'S what SHE was claiming the FIFTH on.

Now, maybe she DOES have something to hide. Maybe the actions of the IRS (and her own behavior?) could lead to criminal prosecution. So, perhaps it is wise of her to claim the Fifth. But if she did nothing criminal and authorized none of the sordid POLITICAL questioning by the fucking IRS improperly directed against conservative group(s) of citizens, then she COULD simply tell CONGRESS what an ADMINISTRATIVE agency was fucking doing.

If she cares to invoke the FIFTH, fine. Then ISSA should get Congress to authorize immunity for her. THEN, by golly, the old sow would HAVE to answer. And, better yet, she would be obligated to answer HONESTLY.

 

[Oldstyle]

amazing how this thread has gone from Lerner taking the 5th to the failures of obamacare.

can we get back on topic?

innocent people do not need the 5th. end of story.

Meh, innocent people need protections form overzealous prosecutors.

Issa should either prove his case, offer Lerner immunity, or shut the fuck up.

Or he cold just save us all time and shut the fuck up.

Ever notice that what Joe REALLY wants is for any and all critics of the Obama Administration to "shut the fuck up"? Benghazi scandal? Shut the fuck up! Fast & Furious scandal? Shut the fuck up! IRS scandal? Shut the fuck up! ObamaCare lies? Shut the fuck up! Stimulus that didn't create jobs? Shut the fuck up! Discombobulated foreign policy? Shut the fuck up! Non-existent energy strategy? Shut the fuck up!

Gee...one wonders why Joe comes to a board where differing viewpoints can be heard... when what he REALLY wants is to hear his own and nobody else.