Malaysia Airlines Is To Blame. Not the Russians

[SillyWabbit]

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree. The Russians, the separatists, and the Ukranians are involved in a war, which is really nobody's business but theirs. How would Americans like it if people in Russia said we in America should not rule over the island of Puerto Rico ?... and if Puerto Ricans rebelled, we should not send troops. And that the Russians might send arms to the Puerto rican separatists. We'd probably tell them to mind their own business.

I could understand if Putin was sending troops into Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, in something reminiscient of Hitler's blitzkrieg upon Europe. But this is just a matter between 2 countries, which really ought to be nobody's business but theirs.

So what you have is a war combat zone. Well anyone in his right mind knows that is place to stay away from. Everyone but the people in Malaysia Airlines that is, and the dummies at the International Civil Aviation Organization, who the company has stupidly listened to. Malaysia Airlines said: “The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation."

Well, if you see somebody climb to the top of the tallest bridge in your town, and jump off, do you do that too ? It should have been common sense to avoid a combat zone, and Malaysia Airlines and the ICAO both are the ones to blame fro being just plain STUPID. Other airlines rerouted their flights months ago when this zone became one of combat (Quantas, China Airlines, Korean Air, Asiana).

Professor Geoff Dell, a Central Queensland University accident investigation and safety specialist, said Malaysia Airlines should not have been flying over Ukraine.

“From as soon as the conflict started they shouldn’t have been going anywhere near it,’’ Prof Dell said. “They should’ve shifted to alternate routes, like all the other airlines seemed to have done.’’

So if anyone wants to blame anyone they should blame the officials at Malaysia Airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

So airlines must give ROW to terrorists? No dice, nor is Ukraine Russia, it was annexed by the former USSR.

You tell those people that got blown out of the sky the airline did the right thing by not giving "ROW to terrorists".

 

[Discombobulated]

2nd grade ? 3 rd maybe ? Intentional ignorance is so fucking lame.

Or maybe it's because you're just a little bit too fucking stupid to know what an actual nation state is. If you don't have diplomatic recognition then you just have a bunch of assholes with guns pretending to have a country. Wanting it to be so doesn't make it true.

Civil war dumb ass--- quit trying to split hairs. Especially if you don't even know what a civil war is.

Which has what to do with "two nations" being at war? Should a no fly zone be declared over every place on earth where there's ongoing civil disturbance? The premise of the thread is idiotic, it attempts to absolve the guilty of a terrorist act.

 

[Camp]

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree. The Russians, the separatists, and the Ukranians are involved in a war, which is really nobody's business but theirs. How would Americans like it if people in Russia said we in America should not rule over the island of Puerto Rico ?... and if Puerto Ricans rebelled, we should not send troops. And that the Russians might send arms to the Puerto rican separatists. We'd probably tell them to mind their own business.

I could understand if Putin was sending troops into Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, in something reminiscient of Hitler's blitzkrieg upon Europe. But this is just a matter between 2 countries, which really ought to be nobody's business but theirs.

So what you have is a war combat zone. Well anyone in his right mind knows that is place to stay away from. Everyone but the people in Malaysia Airlines that is, and the dummies at the International Civil Aviation Organization, who the company has stupidly listened to. Malaysia Airlines said: “The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation."

Well, if you see somebody climb to the top of the tallest bridge in your town, and jump off, do you do that too ? It should have been common sense to avoid a combat zone, and Malaysia Airlines and the ICAO both are the ones to blame fro being just plain STUPID. Other airlines rerouted their flights months ago when this zone became one of combat (Quantas, China Airlines, Korean Air, Asiana).

Professor Geoff Dell, a Central Queensland University accident investigation and safety specialist, said Malaysia Airlines should not have been flying over Ukraine.

“From as soon as the conflict started they shouldn’t have been going anywhere near it,’’ Prof Dell said. “They should’ve shifted to alternate routes, like all the other airlines seemed to have done.’’

So if anyone wants to blame anyone they should blame the officials at Malaysia Airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ukraine-conflict/story-e6frg95x-1226993474860

Invalid thread. You posted someone else's opinion....

Are you nuts ? The thread is 100% valid, and everything in the OP is my opinion.

It is not valid. It is based on data that is wrong. It implies that Malaysia Airlines was the only airline to use the advice of the ICAO. The link to the article I posted shows that that assertion is inaccurate and hence the thesis of the opinion is made null and void with addition to the data that was originally not included in presenting the opinion.

 

[dilloduck]

Or maybe it's because you're just a little bit too fucking stupid to know what an actual nation state is. If you don't have diplomatic recognition then you just have a bunch of assholes with guns pretending to have a country. Wanting it to be so doesn't make it true.

Civil war dumb ass--- quit trying to split hairs. Especially if you don't even know what a civil war is.

Which has what to do with "two nations" being at war? Should a no fly zone be declared over every place on earth where there's ongoing civil disturbance? The premise of thread is idiotic, it attempts to absolve the guilty of a terrorist act.

go ahead and pick your nits. No one should be flying over an area where planes are being shot down. It's stupid. If you think's it's a good idea go ahead and hop in you plane and have fun.

 

[protectionist]

Post number 58 was only marginally lame. Not understanding the concept of 'figure of speech' is, like, really lame

I understand quite well what you said. You said "who pulled the trigger". That's not a figure of speech. Those are words with a meaning. One which you are now running away from, apparently.

Turning on your imaginary computerized automatic robotic weapons system would in and of itself be equal to pulling the trigger. The "Operator", a human being would have turned on the programmed computer system to shoot down anything that came in range without human source identification. Hence, the trigger was pulled when the human being "triggered" the system to be in the "power on" position.

All of this is the normal procedure that armies take to defend themselves from air attack. Doesn't matter if someone pushed a button or someone programmed a computer. Bottom line is, there is a WAR going on. ANd if don't want to have your head shot off, you stay the hell away from it. Got it ?

 

[mudwhistle]

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree. The Russians, the separatists, and the Ukranians are involved in a war, which is really nobody's business but theirs. How would Americans like it if people in Russia said we in America should not rule over the island of Puerto Rico ?... and if Puerto Ricans rebelled, we should not send troops. And that the Russians might send arms to the Puerto rican separatists. We'd probably tell them to mind their own business.

I could understand if Putin was sending troops into Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, in something reminiscient of Hitler's blitzkrieg upon Europe. But this is just a matter between 2 countries, which really ought to be nobody's business but theirs.

So what you have is a war combat zone. Well anyone in his right mind knows that is place to stay away from. Everyone but the people in Malaysia Airlines that is, and the dummies at the International Civil Aviation Organization, who the company has stupidly listened to. Malaysia Airlines said: “The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation."

Well, if you see somebody climb to the top of the tallest bridge in your town, and jump off, do you do that too ? It should have been common sense to avoid a combat zone, and Malaysia Airlines and the ICAO both are the ones to blame fro being just plain STUPID. Other airlines rerouted their flights months ago when this zone became one of combat (Quantas, China Airlines, Korean Air, Asiana).

Professor Geoff Dell, a Central Queensland University accident investigation and safety specialist, said Malaysia Airlines should not have been flying over Ukraine.

“From as soon as the conflict started they shouldn’t have been going anywhere near it,’’ Prof Dell said. “They should’ve shifted to alternate routes, like all the other airlines seemed to have done.’’

So if anyone wants to blame anyone they should blame the officials at Malaysia Airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

So airlines must give ROW to terrorists? No dice, nor is Ukraine Russia, it was annexed by the former USSR.

You tell those people that got blown out of the sky the airline did the right thing by not giving "ROW to terrorists".

How can you tell them anything?

They got blown up.


Parts of them are scattered all over Ukraine.

 

[martybegan]

I understand quite well what you said. You said "who pulled the trigger". That's not a figure of speech. Those are words with a meaning. One which you are now running away from, apparently.

Turning on your imaginary computerized automatic robotic weapons system would in and of itself be equal to pulling the trigger. The "Operator", a human being would have turned on the programmed computer system to shoot down anything that came in range without human source identification. Hence, the trigger was pulled when the human being "triggered" the system to be in the "power on" position.

All of this is the normal procedure that armies take to defend themselves from air attack. Doesn't matter if someone pushed a button of someone programmed a computer. Bottom line is, there is a WAR going on. ANd if don't want to have your head shot off, you stay the hell away from it. Got it ?

So an airliner at 33k feet travelling in a straight line is somehow mimic-ing an air attack?

 

[protectionist]

At 33,000 feet it's pretty obvious that a shoulder held SAM was not used. At that attitude the Russian SA-11 radar guided missile is the likely culprit. The MA airline would have lit up the operator radar screen in the battery but it would have been impossible for the operator to tell whether the target was an airline or a similar hostile aircraft. Who ever gave the order to fire either didn't know or didn't care that a number of commercial airliners were in that air space.

From what I know now, I'd go with the didn't know, didn't care or wasn't fully trained on the equipment. The SA-11/17 both have IFF interrogation capability to prevent fratricide. Did the operating team know how to use it or were they knowledgeable enough to know what an airline squawk code was compared to a military code?

A team was working the TELAR (transporter erector launcher and radar). They were probably tied into some sort of command and control network. It's hard for me to believe the decision to launch was made in a vacuum.

Some of you may find this article and video interesting. Warning though: If you play the video, turn your sound down unless you like rap music.

What it’s like to be sitting behind a radar screen of an SA-11 Buk SAM system

The Aviationist » What it?s like to be sitting behind a radar screen of an SA-11 Buk SAM system




----------------------------------------------------------

The question of the day for investigators is what kind of radar system was being used and by who. The normal system used with the SA-11 Buk would have been able to calculate altitude, speed and size. That data would make the type aircraft identifiable to a trained technician.

Who says there was even a "trained technician" paying attention to this ?

 

[Discombobulated]

Civil war dumb ass--- quit trying to split hairs. Especially if you don't even know what a civil war is.

Which has what to do with "two nations" being at war? Should a no fly zone be declared over every place on earth where there's ongoing civil disturbance? The premise of thread is idiotic, it attempts to absolve the guilty of a terrorist act.

go ahead and pick your nits. No one should be flying over an area where planes are being shot down. It's stupid. If you think's it's a good idea go ahead and hop in you plane and have fun.

I don't think it's a good idea to fly over areas where rednecks have .50 cal. sniper rifles either....but that's just the risk we have to take.

 

[Discombobulated]

Turning on your imaginary computerized automatic robotic weapons system would in and of itself be equal to pulling the trigger. The "Operator", a human being would have turned on the programmed computer system to shoot down anything that came in range without human source identification. Hence, the trigger was pulled when the human being "triggered" the system to be in the "power on" position.

All of this is the normal procedure that armies take to defend themselves from air attack. Doesn't matter if someone pushed a button of someone programmed a computer. Bottom line is, there is a WAR going on. ANd if don't want to have your head shot off, you stay the hell away from it. Got it ?

So an airliner at 33k feet travelling in a straight line is somehow mimic-ing an air attack?

No it doesn't, never did, never could have.

 

[saveliberty]

From what I know now, I'd go with the didn't know, didn't care or wasn't fully trained on the equipment. The SA-11/17 both have IFF interrogation capability to prevent fratricide. Did the operating team know how to use it or were they knowledgeable enough to know what an airline squawk code was compared to a military code?

A team was working the TELAR (transporter erector launcher and radar). They were probably tied into some sort of command and control network. It's hard for me to believe the decision to launch was made in a vacuum.

Some of you may find this article and video interesting. Warning though: If you play the video, turn your sound down unless you like rap music.

What it’s like to be sitting behind a radar screen of an SA-11 Buk SAM system

The Aviationist » What it?s like to be sitting behind a radar screen of an SA-11 Buk SAM system




----------------------------------------------------------

The question of the day for investigators is what kind of radar system was being used and by who. The normal system used with the SA-11 Buk would have been able to calculate altitude, speed and size. That data would make the type aircraft identifiable to a trained technician.

Who says there was even a "trained technician" paying attention to this ?

Just more irresponsible actions by the prorussians and Russians huh? You gave them a pass already though. Does bolster my position that they had every opportunity to know they were shooting at a commercial flight.

 

[Camp]

I understand quite well what you said. You said "who pulled the trigger". That's not a figure of speech. Those are words with a meaning. One which you are now running away from, apparently.

Turning on your imaginary computerized automatic robotic weapons system would in and of itself be equal to pulling the trigger. The "Operator", a human being would have turned on the programmed computer system to shoot down anything that came in range without human source identification. Hence, the trigger was pulled when the human being "triggered" the system to be in the "power on" position.

All of this is the normal procedure that armies take to defend themselves from air attack. Doesn't matter if someone pushed a button of someone programmed a computer. Bottom line is, there is a WAR going on. ANd if don't want to have your head shot off, you stay the hell away from it. Got it ?

Well, if you want to get all attitudy about it. The nation providing and supplying the anti aircraft batteries, along with those operating it, including assisting in the operation have a legal obligation to pronounce the area of it's operation as a war zone and inform potential targets to stay away from the zone.
There has to be some protocol and internationally accepted legal way to address this exact situation, and there is. I explained it in the first paragraph.
Russia tried to avoid the international laws and agreements about providing this kind of weapon and got caught. They were supplying a heavy weapon that could be used to shoot down civilian airliners to one side of a so called civil war. By admitting that they are supplying the side of a non recognized side of a civil war they make it a war of Russia against Ukraine.
You are suggesting that we use a system of some kind of guessing and figurin' to determine safe flying zones. All because Russia decided to ignore international norms and accepted behavior in it's effort to annex more of it's neighboring state of Ukraine.

 

[protectionist]

And yet 100's of flights per day fly over these areas without an issue. All of a sudden when one is shot down by big bad Russia, its all the fault of those greedy airlines.

Where do you get the idea that "100's of flights per day fly over these areas without an issue" ? That's a pretty large statement to make when you haven't presented a shred of evidence to go along with it. In the OP, I presented evident to the contrary. That other airlines are avoiding this war zone, and named them as well. All in all, it really doesn't matter who is or isn't flying through this war zone. It's an idiotic thing to do, no matter what.

Its been reported in the news that over 50 flights had used that air corridor in the same day. My fiancee's flight to Dubai flew over Iraq, which happens to be in dispute. If you add up all the flights over all the air corridors over disputed territory, you can easily get to the 100's of flights.

Airliners at altitude follow specific air corridors and are identifiable to even the most greenly trained Anti-aircraft military personnel.

The original warning from the FAA wasn't over the risk of being shot down, it's over the risk of two sets of air controllers, Ukranian and Russian near Sevestapol.

This is an example of one of those posts that is was already refuted (by the post it quoted) before it was even posted. In case you somehow missed it, here it is again >>

"All in all, it really doesn't matter who is or isn't flying through this war zone. It's an IDIOTIC THING TO DO, no matter what."

No matter how you present it, you not going to make a case that flying through war zones is anything other than dangerous idiocy. And NO, airliners are not always identifiable to SA-11 troops on the ground, as the link in Post # 176 clearly showed.

 

[dilloduck]

Turning on your imaginary computerized automatic robotic weapons system would in and of itself be equal to pulling the trigger. The "Operator", a human being would have turned on the programmed computer system to shoot down anything that came in range without human source identification. Hence, the trigger was pulled when the human being "triggered" the system to be in the "power on" position.

All of this is the normal procedure that armies take to defend themselves from air attack. Doesn't matter if someone pushed a button of someone programmed a computer. Bottom line is, there is a WAR going on. ANd if don't want to have your head shot off, you stay the hell away from it. Got it ?

Well, if you want to get all attitudy about it. The nation providing and supplying the anti aircraft batteries, along with those operating it, including assisting in the operation have a legal obligation to pronounce the area of it's operation as a war zone and inform potential targets to stay away from the zone.
There has to be some protocol and internationally accepted legal way to address this exact situation, and there is. I explained it in the first paragraph.
Russia tried to avoid the international laws and agreements about providing this kind of weapon and got caught. They were supplying a heavy weapon that could be used to shoot down civilian airliners to one side of a so called civil war. By admitting that they are supplying the side of a non recognized side of a civil war they make it a war of Russia against Ukraine.
You are suggesting that we use a system of some kind of guessing and figurin' to determine safe flying zones. All because Russia decided to ignore international norms and accepted behavior in it's effort to annex more of it's neighboring state of Ukraine.

The Ukraine has them deployed too. Did they notify anyone ? and why the hell is that ? The separatists don't even have an air force.

 

[saveliberty]

That plane would have also been sending commercial radio signals and a transponder. It is the responsiblity of the aggressor to verify it as hostile.

 

[dilloduck]

That plane would have also been sending commercial radio signals and a transponder. It is the responsiblity of the aggressor to verify it as hostile.

The may have and they equipment malfunctioned. WTF difference does all this make ?
I mean really ?

 

[saveliberty]

The Ukraine has them deployed too. Did they notify anyone ? and why the hell is that ? The separatists don't even have an air force.

Seems like Russia has these things called MIGs...

Ukraine is really fighting Russia, pass it on.

 

[protectionist]

That plane would have also been sending commercial radio signals and a transponder. It is the responsiblity of the aggressor to verify it as hostile.

You haven't served in the military have you ? In WAR, there IS no responsibility. Each side fights to survive, by any means necessary. Don't want to get shot ? Stay the hell out of the way. FAR away.

What a joke how some people talk about war. Like it was a tennis match.

 

[martybegan]

Where do you get the idea that "100's of flights per day fly over these areas without an issue" ? That's a pretty large statement to make when you haven't presented a shred of evidence to go along with it. In the OP, I presented evident to the contrary. That other airlines are avoiding this war zone, and named them as well. All in all, it really doesn't matter who is or isn't flying through this war zone. It's an idiotic thing to do, no matter what.

Its been reported in the news that over 50 flights had used that air corridor in the same day. My fiancee's flight to Dubai flew over Iraq, which happens to be in dispute. If you add up all the flights over all the air corridors over disputed territory, you can easily get to the 100's of flights.

Airliners at altitude follow specific air corridors and are identifiable to even the most greenly trained Anti-aircraft military personnel.

The original warning from the FAA wasn't over the risk of being shot down, it's over the risk of two sets of air controllers, Ukranian and Russian near Sevestapol.

This is an example of one of those posts that is was already refuted (by the post it quoted) before it was even posted. In case you somehow missed it, here it is again >>

"All in all, it really doesn't matter who is or isn't flying through this war zone. It's an IDIOTIC THING TO DO, no matter what."

No matter how you present it, you not going to make a case that flying through war zones is anything other than dangerous idiocy. And NO, airliners are not always identifiable to SA-11 troops on the ground, as the link in Post # 176 clearly showed.

There were 54 other planes the same day that flew through the area. and countless more that have done it in the past weeks and months. None of them got shot down.

Why don't you stop sucking Russian dick for a few minutes, and try to think.

Fucking toad.

 

[saveliberty]

That plane would have also been sending commercial radio signals and a transponder. It is the responsiblity of the aggressor to verify it as hostile.

The may have and they equipment malfunctioned. WTF difference does all this make ?
I mean really ?

Because the OP assigned blame on the airline and not Russia. You are of course correct, it makes no difference because this is all political posturing, which will result in nothing.