Malaysia Airlines Is To Blame. Not the Russians

[protectionist]

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree. The Russians, the separatists, and the Ukranians are involved in a war, which is really nobody's business but theirs. How would Americans like it if people in Russia said we in America should not rule over the island of Puerto Rico ?... and if Puerto Ricans rebelled, we should not send troops. And that the Russians might send arms to the Puerto rican separatists. We'd probably tell them to mind their own business.

I could understand if Putin was sending troops into Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, in something reminiscient of Hitler's blitzkrieg upon Europe. But this is just a matter between 2 countries, which really ought to be nobody's business but theirs.

So what you have is a war combat zone. Well anyone in his right mind knows that is place to stay away from. Everyone but the people in Malaysia Airlines that is, and the dummies at the International Civil Aviation Organization, who the company has stupidly listened to. Malaysia Airlines said: “The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation."

Well, if you see somebody climb to the top of the tallest bridge in your town, and jump off, do you do that too ? It should have been common sense to avoid a combat zone, and Malaysia Airlines and the ICAO both are the ones to blame fro being just plain STUPID. Other airlines rerouted their flights months ago when this zone became one of combat (Quantas, China Airlines, Korean Air, Asiana).

Professor Geoff Dell, a Central Queensland University accident investigation and safety specialist, said Malaysia Airlines should not have been flying over Ukraine.

“From as soon as the conflict started they shouldn’t have been going anywhere near it,’’ Prof Dell said. “They should’ve shifted to alternate routes, like all the other airlines seemed to have done.’’

So if anyone wants to blame anyone they should blame the officials at Malaysia Airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ukraine-conflict/story-e6frg95x-1226993474860

Your superficial characterization of two countries being at war is completely stupid and wrong. Perhaps you just haven't been following the details very closely.

So you're saying where the jet was shot down is not a war zone ?

 

[protectionist]

Guess if I walk in a bad neighborhood and get killed its all my fault huh?

Not ALL your fault, no. PARTIALLY your fault ? Absolutely. Walking through bad neighborhoods is simply stupid. Solution ? Don't be stupid.

 

[protectionist]

Well, it was certainly a surprise, but this isn't the first time an airliner was shot downed with missiles.

Many nations, including the U.S., Europe and the Middle East, routinely fly at high altitudes over tense conflict zones such as the Ukraine, Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. Dozens of other countries that are hot beds of terrorism have numerous flights at both low and high altitudes. If an airline is shot down, some blame the airline for being there. It seems far more logical to blame those that shot the plane down.

I disagree 100%. Anybody who flys over a "tense conflict zone" even once, is an irresponsible idiot, let alone doing this routinely. When there's a war going on you don't fly, sail, or walk through it, and you don't know if any PERSON - whom you describe as "those" even did this (as opposed to a computer acting on its own)

And yet 100's of flights per day fly over these areas without an issue. All of a sudden when one is shot down by big bad Russia, its all the fault of those greedy airlines.

Where do you get the idea that "100's of flights per day fly over these areas without an issue" ? That's a pretty large statement to make when you haven't presented a shred of evidence to go along with it. In the OP, I presented evidence to the contrary. That other airlines are avoiding this war zone, and named them as well. All in all, it really doesn't matter who is or isn't flying through this war zone. It's an idiotic thing to do, no matter what.

 

[martybegan]

I disagree 100%. Anybody who flys over a "tense conflict zone" even once, is an irresponsible idiot, let alone doing this routinely. When there's a war going on you don't fly, sail, or walk through it, and you don't know if any PERSON - whom you describe as "those" even did this (as opposed to a computer acting on its own)

And yet 100's of flights per day fly over these areas without an issue. All of a sudden when one is shot down by big bad Russia, its all the fault of those greedy airlines.

Where do you get the idea that "100's of flights per day fly over these areas without an issue" ? That's a pretty large statement to make when you haven't presented a shred of evidence to go along with it. In the OP, I presented evident to the contrary. That other airlines are avoiding this war zone, and named them as well. All in all, it really doesn't matter who is or isn't flying through this war zone. It's an idiotic thing to do, no matter what.

Its been reported in the news that over 50 flights had used that air corridor in the same day. My fiancee's flight to Dubai flew over Iraq, which happens to be in dispute. If you add up all the flights over all the air corridors over disputed territory, you can easily get to the 100's of flights.

Airliners at altitude follow specific air corridors and are identifiable to even the most greenly trained Anti-aircraft military personnel.

The original warning from the FAA wasn't over the risk of being shot down, it's over the risk of two sets of air controllers, Ukranian and Russian near Sevestapol.

 

[protectionist]

Seems to lay the blame at the feet of Russia then, contrary to the OP's position. Air flights are often diverted for weather reasons, so it is understandably strange that a commercial flight would enter a war zone. Still no excuse for shooting down an obvious commercial flight.

1. Planes flying at 32,000 feet are not "obvious" anything.

2. If in World War II, Americans shot down a commercial plane at 32,000 feet, during the Battle of the Bulge, you'd say they'd have had no excuse ?

3. You don't even know if a person shot the plane down or if was done by a machine. Do you ?

At 33,000 feet it's pretty obvious that a shoulder held SAM was not used. At that attitude the Russian SA-11 radar guided missile is the likely culprit. The MA airline would have lit up the operator radar screen in the battery but it would have been impossible for the operator to tell whether the target was an airline or a similar hostile aircraft. Who ever gave the order to fire either didn't know or didn't care that a number of commercial airliners were in that air space.

Where/how do you come up with the idea that there was an "order to fire" ? Last I heard (from a good source) SA-11s fire automatically without any human action, entirely by radar-computer.

Also, your post shows a lack of direct military experience. Have you ever served in the military ? I did for 5 years, in the army.
I learned early what WAR is. Most people don't really know the meaning of the word. Maybe this little story could help. In 1967, a squadron of US Navy swift boats were rushing down the Mekong river in Vietnam, carrying US Army troops. In the distance, black smoke and the thunder of battle could be heard. About 15 minutes later, the boats were moving through the place of the battle. Floating in the water were dozens of bodies, some dead, some still alive. US Marines could be seen raising their hands begging for help. An army corporal asked his officer (a Navy lieutenant) >"Sir. Can we stop and help these guys ? Us Marines" He was told "No, we need to keep moving, to complete the mission"

That was that young troopers first realization > This is WAR. Many people don't realize how true the statement is > "All is fair in love and WAR." Many people will never understand it.

 

[martybegan]

1. Planes flying at 32,000 feet are not "obvious" anything.

2. If in World War II, Americans shot down a commercial plane at 32,000 feet, during the Battle of the Bulge, you'd say they'd have had no excuse ?

3. You don't even know if a person shot the plane down or if was done by a machine. Do you ?

At 33,000 feet it's pretty obvious that a shoulder held SAM was not used. At that attitude the Russian SA-11 radar guided missile is the likely culprit. The MA airline would have lit up the operator radar screen in the battery but it would have been impossible for the operator to tell whether the target was an airline or a similar hostile aircraft. Who ever gave the order to fire either didn't know or didn't care that a number of commercial airliners were in that air space.

Where/how do you come up with the idea that there was an "order to fire" ? Last I heard (from a good source) SA-11s fire automatically without any human action, entirely by radar-computer.

If such a mode exists, it would have to be set by AN OPERATOR to go into that mode.

 

[Discombobulated]

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree. The Russians, the separatists, and the Ukranians are involved in a war, which is really nobody's business but theirs. How would Americans like it if people in Russia said we in America should not rule over the island of Puerto Rico ?... and if Puerto Ricans rebelled, we should not send troops. And that the Russians might send arms to the Puerto rican separatists. We'd probably tell them to mind their own business.

I could understand if Putin was sending troops into Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, in something reminiscient of Hitler's blitzkrieg upon Europe. But this is just a matter between 2 countries, which really ought to be nobody's business but theirs.

So what you have is a war combat zone. Well anyone in his right mind knows that is place to stay away from. Everyone but the people in Malaysia Airlines that is, and the dummies at the International Civil Aviation Organization, who the company has stupidly listened to. Malaysia Airlines said: “The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation."

Well, if you see somebody climb to the top of the tallest bridge in your town, and jump off, do you do that too ? It should have been common sense to avoid a combat zone, and Malaysia Airlines and the ICAO both are the ones to blame fro being just plain STUPID. Other airlines rerouted their flights months ago when this zone became one of combat (Quantas, China Airlines, Korean Air, Asiana).

Professor Geoff Dell, a Central Queensland University accident investigation and safety specialist, said Malaysia Airlines should not have been flying over Ukraine.

“From as soon as the conflict started they shouldn’t have been going anywhere near it,’’ Prof Dell said. “They should’ve shifted to alternate routes, like all the other airlines seemed to have done.’’

So if anyone wants to blame anyone they should blame the officials at Malaysia Airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ukraine-conflict/story-e6frg95x-1226993474860

Your superficial characterization of two countries being at war is completely stupid and wrong. Perhaps you just haven't been following the details very closely.

So you're saying where the jet was shot down is not a war zone ?

Which two "countries" are at war?

 

[dilloduck]

Your superficial characterization of two countries being at war is completely stupid and wrong. Perhaps you just haven't been following the details very closely.

So you're saying where the jet was shot down is not a war zone ?

Which two "countries" are at war?

It's a civil war in the Ukraine. Where have you been ?

 

[Discombobulated]

So you're saying where the jet was shot down is not a war zone ?

Which two "countries" are at war?

It's a civil war in the Ukraine. Where have you been ?

Uh-huh, so which two countries?

 

[dilloduck]

Which two "countries" are at war?

It's a civil war in the Ukraine. Where have you been ?

Uh-huh, so which two countries?

2nd grade ? 3 rd maybe ? Intentional ignorance is so fucking lame.

 

[Camp]

Virgin Atlantic plane was in same area as MH17 when it was shot down | Mail Online

Posted this yesterday. It is an article about aircraft using the airspace in question.

 

[protectionist]

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree. The Russians, the separatists, and the Ukranians are involved in a war, which is really nobody's business but theirs. How would Americans like it if people in Russia said we in America should not rule over the island of Puerto Rico ?... and if Puerto Ricans rebelled, we should not send troops. And that the Russians might send arms to the Puerto rican separatists. We'd probably tell them to mind their own business.

I could understand if Putin was sending troops into Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, in something reminiscient of Hitler's blitzkrieg upon Europe. But this is just a matter between 2 countries, which really ought to be nobody's business but theirs.

So what you have is a war combat zone. Well anyone in his right mind knows that is place to stay away from. Everyone but the people in Malaysia Airlines that is, and the dummies at the International Civil Aviation Organization, who the company has stupidly listened to. Malaysia Airlines said: “The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation."

Well, if you see somebody climb to the top of the tallest bridge in your town, and jump off, do you do that too ? It should have been common sense to avoid a combat zone, and Malaysia Airlines and the ICAO both are the ones to blame fro being just plain STUPID. Other airlines rerouted their flights months ago when this zone became one of combat (Quantas, China Airlines, Korean Air, Asiana).

Professor Geoff Dell, a Central Queensland University accident investigation and safety specialist, said Malaysia Airlines should not have been flying over Ukraine.

“From as soon as the conflict started they shouldn’t have been going anywhere near it,’’ Prof Dell said. “They should’ve shifted to alternate routes, like all the other airlines seemed to have done.’’

So if anyone wants to blame anyone they should blame the officials at Malaysia Airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ukraine-conflict/story-e6frg95x-1226993474860

Invalid thread. You posted someone else's opinion....

Are you nuts ? The thread is 100% valid, and everything in the OP is my opinion.

 

[protectionist]

Multiple airlines use this air corridor. Jesus Christ this is like blaming he fucking rape victim.

Not anymore they don't. It should have been declared a no fly zone long ago instead of now.

Perhaps....However let us remember, this is your opinion.

Do you disagree with it ? If you do, you're an idiot. And NO, it not "perhaps". It is 100% absolutely positive.

 

[Discombobulated]

It's a civil war in the Ukraine. Where have you been ?

Uh-huh, so which two countries?

2nd grade ? 3 rd maybe ? Intentional ignorance is so fucking lame.

Or maybe it's because you're just a little bit too fucking stupid to know what an actual nation state is. If you don't have diplomatic recognition then you just have a bunch of assholes with guns pretending to have a country. Wanting it to be so doesn't make it true.

 

[Camp]

So you're saying where the jet was shot down is not a war zone ?

Which two "countries" are at war?

It's a civil war in the Ukraine. Where have you been ?

Save us some searching time. When was the last time a civil war included the use of anti aircraft weapons capable of shooting down high altitude commercial passenger jets?

 

[protectionist]

1. Planes flying at 32,000 feet are not "obvious" anything.

2. If in World War II, Americans shot down a commercial plane at 32,000 feet, during the Battle of the Bulge, you'd say they'd have had no excuse ?

3. You don't even know if a person shot the plane down or if was done by a machine. Do you ?

At 33,000 feet it's pretty obvious that a shoulder held SAM was not used. At that attitude the Russian SA-11 radar guided missile is the likely culprit. The MA airline would have lit up the operator radar screen in the battery but it would have been impossible for the operator to tell whether the target was an airline or a similar hostile aircraft. Who ever gave the order to fire either didn't know or didn't care that a number of commercial airliners were in that air space.

Maybe because they are at war and planes are flying in supplies to be used against them.
Is the west completely in the blind about what is going on there ????

You are talking to clueless idiots, with no concept of WAR, who equate all this with somebody walking onto somebody's soccer field while a game is going on. Sheeeeshh!!

 

[dilloduck]

Uh-huh, so which two countries?

2nd grade ? 3 rd maybe ? Intentional ignorance is so fucking lame.

Or maybe it's because you're just a little bit too fucking stupid to know what an actual nation state is. If you don't have diplomatic recognition then you just have a bunch of assholes with guns pretending to have a country. Wanting it to be so doesn't make it true.

Civil war dumb ass--- quit trying to split hairs. Especially if you don't even know what a civil war is.

 

[protectionist]

Perhaps....However let us remember, this is your opinion.

and the opinion of many others---links have already been provided

Right...Seems a lot of people have opinions.
Should MA-17 been in that air space. I do not believe so.
Is this tragedy and slaughter 100% the fault of Malaysian Airlines? Absolutely not.
And anyone that states this is blaming the victims.

FALSE! Malaysian Airlines (except for the crew of MH-17) are not victims. They are at home in Malaysia, safe and sound, making millions of dollars. The people in the plane were the victims.

 

[martybegan]

and the opinion of many others---links have already been provided

Right...Seems a lot of people have opinions.
Should MA-17 been in that air space. I do not believe so.
Is this tragedy and slaughter 100% the fault of Malaysian Airlines? Absolutely not.
And anyone that states this is blaming the victims.

FALSE! Malaysian Airlines (except for the crew of MH-17) are not victims. They are at home in Malaysia, safe and sound, making millions of dollars. The people in the plane were the victims.

They were flying within the direction of air traffic controllers, and their plane got shot down for no fucking reason. How are they not Victims?

 

[protectionist]

Sorry yourself. It IS their fault. You don't fly into war zones. MA should be sued, big time.

Multiple airlines use this air corridor. Jesus Christ this is like blaming he fucking rape victim.

Logic and reason are not his forte.

Shut up moron. His dumb post was already refuted days ago.