Malaysia Airlines Is To Blame. Not the Russians

[protectionist]

Maybe I'm missing something, but the only ground weapon that can reach 33,000 feet in that region is a Russian one. The pro-Russian forces were given access to these weapons and trained in their use. I'm all ears as to how you think any different.

There is a more fundamental point. The Separatists do not have any military airplanes to shoot down, only the Ukrainians have military airplanes. Guess who pulled the trigger.

Who said there was a "trigger" ? See Post # 58.

 

[Politico]

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree. The Russians, the separatists, and the Ukranians are involved in a war, which is really nobody's business but theirs. How would Americans like it if people in Russia said we in America should not rule over the island of Puerto Rico ?... and if Puerto Ricans rebelled, we should not send troops. And that the Russians might send arms to the Puerto rican separatists. We'd probably tell them to mind their own business.

I could understand if Putin was sending troops into Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, in something reminiscient of Hitler's blitzkrieg upon Europe. But this is just a matter between 2 countries, which really ought to be nobody's business but theirs.

So what you have is a war combat zone. Well anyone in his right mind knows that is place to stay away from. Everyone but the people in Malaysia Airlines that is, and the dummies at the International Civil Aviation Organization, who the company has stupidly listened to. Malaysia Airlines said: “The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation."

Well, if you see somebody climb to the top of the tallest bridge in your town, and jump off, do you do that too ? It should have been common sense to avoid a combat zone, and Malaysia Airlines and the ICAO both are the ones to blame fro being just plain STUPID. Other airlines rerouted their flights months ago when this zone became one of combat (Quantas, China Airlines, Korean Air, Asiana).

Professor Geoff Dell, a Central Queensland University accident investigation and safety specialist, said Malaysia Airlines should not have been flying over Ukraine.

“From as soon as the conflict started they shouldn’t have been going anywhere near it,’’ Prof Dell said. “They should’ve shifted to alternate routes, like all the other airlines seemed to have done.’’

So if anyone wants to blame anyone they should blame the officials at Malaysia Airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

So airlines must give ROW to terrorists? No dice, nor is Ukraine Russia, it was annexed by the former USSR.

Yes. Airlines should avoid terrorists, war zones, natural hazardous zones, and anywhere else their passengers could be put at major risk. Of course. And I don't know if we're talking about terrorists here. I don't see that as having been established, but it wouldn't matter anyway. Yes. Malaysia Airlines is to blame.

Exactly. When you fly over areas where they are shooting down planes you get what is coming to you.

 

[Peach]

So airlines must give ROW to terrorists? No dice, nor is Ukraine Russia, it was annexed by the former USSR.

Yes. Airlines should avoid terrorists, war zones, natural hazardous zones, and anywhere else their passengers could be put at major risk. Of course. And I don't know if we're talking about terrorists here. I don't see that as having been established, but it wouldn't matter anyway. Yes. Malaysia Airlines is to blame.

Exactly. When you fly over areas where they are shooting down planes you get what is coming to you.

Another Russia aplogist:

US believes Russia provided separatists with missile that shot down airliner | Fox News

 

[Jroc]

So what if Russia was trying to annex Ukraine ? Do you object to that ? If so, on what basis ?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrasqV7M2Vc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrasqV7M2Vc[/ame]

1994 legally binding agreement signed by Bill Clinton obligates America to defend Ukraine
at Forgotten treaty could drag U.S. into war with Russia

A treaty signed in 1994 by the US and Britain could pull both countries into a war to protect Ukraine if President Putin’s troops cross into the country.

Bill Clinton, John Major, Boris Yeltsin and Leonid Kuchma – the then-rulers of the USA, UK, Russia and Ukraine – agreed to the The Budapest Memorandum as part of the denuclearization of former Soviet republics after the dissolution of the Soviet Union

Technically it means that if Russia has invaded Ukraine then it would be difficult for the US and Britain to avoid going to war.

Read more at Forgotten treaty could drag U.S. into war with Russia

And you would support this ? Commiting US troops to fight and die in Ukraine to stop them from being united with Russia ?

For all we know, it could be that the majority of Ukranians might WANT to be reunited as part of Russia (which it has been for centuries)

I hate to be pessimistic, but this seems to be shaping up very similar to how the US got involved in Vietnam, and wound up in a war with 58,000 lost US lives, for really no good reason at all. So Putin annexes Ukraine (which has always been Russian) ? So ? Didn't the USA annex Hawaii (which had never been American), and Alaska (which had never been American) ???? (without giving the native Hawaiins or Eskimo Alaskans much to say about it). (??????????)

You asked a question, I answered it. I dont support military action, but we could defeat the Russians economically by flooding the market with natural gas which we have plenty of. That would kill their economy...what your great love for the Russians? Putin is a thug dictator

 

[saveliberty]

Exactly. When you fly over areas where they are shooting down planes you get what is coming to you.

Please provide credible sources disclosing where other planes have been shot down over Ukraine during this period of time.

 

[Peach]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrasqV7M2Vc

1994 legally binding agreement signed by Bill Clinton obligates America to defend Ukraine
at Forgotten treaty could drag U.S. into war with Russia



Read more at Forgotten treaty could drag U.S. into war with Russia

And you would support this ? Commiting US troops to fight and die in Ukraine to stop them from being united with Russia ?

For all we know, it could be that the majority of Ukranians might WANT to be reunited as part of Russia (which it has been for centuries)

I hate to be pessimistic, but this seems to be shaping up very similar to how the US got involved in Vietnam, and wound up in a war with 58,000 lost US lives, for really no good reason at all. So Putin annexes Ukraine (which has always been Russian) ? So ? Didn't the USA annex Hawaii (which had never been American), and Alaska (which had never been American) ???? (without giving the native Hawaiins or Eskimo Alaskans much to say about it). (??????????)

You asked a question, I answered it. I dont support military action, but we could defeat the Russians economically by flooding the market with natural gas which we have plenty of. That would kill their economy...what your great love for the Russians? Putin is a thug dictator

Exactly, Europe is ready, the US is, except for Putin groupies. This thing is just another Soviet dictator.

 

[Camp]

So airlines must give ROW to terrorists? No dice, nor is Ukraine Russia, it was annexed by the former USSR.

Yes. Airlines should avoid terrorists, war zones, natural hazardous zones, and anywhere else their passengers could be put at major risk. Of course. And I don't know if we're talking about terrorists here. I don't see that as having been established, but it wouldn't matter anyway. Yes. Malaysia Airlines is to blame.

Exactly. When you fly over areas where they are shooting down planes you get what is coming to you.

Blame the victims and protect the criminals that committed the crime. You are making a bull crap propaganda talking point.

Hundreds of airliners were scheduled to fly over the area before the shoot down and dozens of them did before the shoot down.

No one expected that a missile would be used to shoot down an airliner flying over at over 30,000 feet. The Ukraine cargo plane the was shot down was an AN-26 Turbo Prop that has a cruising speed of 273 MPH and has a maximum altitude service at about 25,000 feet. It is 78 feet 1 inch in length.
The Boeing shot down was flying at over 33,000 feet and traveling at over 550 MPH. It was 209 feet in length. It was more than 2.5 times the size, traveling more than twice the speed and over a 1.5 miles in altitude over what a Ukrainian target has the capability of achieving.
The Russian system that took MH-17 was not a robot. It was operated by human beings. One of them would have been or should have been able to tell the difference with the data that would have been acquired by the highly sophisticated radar and target acqusition system.

 

[Peach]

Exactly. When you fly over areas where they are shooting down planes you get what is coming to you.

Please provide credible sources disclosing where other planes have been shot down over Ukraine during this period of time.

This area wasn't in the FAA "no fly area", the other Russian terrorist targets were outside commercial flight zones. Russian separatists took credit for shooting down military and other government planes, are SILENT as to this slaughter. People from 17 nations, debris over 9 miles. And yes, the Russian terrorists probably had the capability:

How rebels in Ukraine built up their arsenal - CNN.com

 

[Peach]

Exactly. When you fly over areas where they are shooting down planes you get what is coming to you.

Please provide credible sources disclosing where other planes have been shot down over Ukraine during this period of time.

Ukrainian military plane shot down; all 49 aboard dead - CNN.com

The Russian separatists/terrorists took credit for that attack.

 

[Peach]

Yes. Airlines should avoid terrorists, war zones, natural hazardous zones, and anywhere else their passengers could be put at major risk. Of course. And I don't know if we're talking about terrorists here. I don't see that as having been established, but it wouldn't matter anyway. Yes. Malaysia Airlines is to blame.

Exactly. When you fly over areas where they are shooting down planes you get what is coming to you.

Blame the victims and protect the criminals that committed the crime. You are making a bull crap propaganda talking talking point.

Hundreds of airliners were scheduled to fly over the are before the shoot down and dozens of them did before the shoot down.

No one expected that a missile would be used to shoot down an airliner flying over at over 30,000 feet. The Ukraine cargo plane the was shot down was an AN-26 Turbo Prop that has a cruising speed of 273 MPH and has a maximum altitude service at about 25,000 feet. It is 78 feet 1 inch in length.
The Boeing shot down was flying at over 33,000 feet and traveling at over 550 MPH. It was 209 feet in length. It was more than 2.5 times the size, traveling more than twice the speed and over a 1.5 miles in altitude over what a Ukrainian target has the capability of achieving.
The Russian system that took MH-17 was not a robot. It was operated by human beings. One of them would have been or should have been able to tell the difference with the data that would have been acquired by the highly sophisticated radar and target acqusition system.

Murked wrote yesterday the system that would have identified this target was manual, thus if not on, this was just another target.

 

[saveliberty]

Exactly. When you fly over areas where they are shooting down planes you get what is coming to you.

Please provide credible sources disclosing where other planes have been shot down over Ukraine during this period of time.

Ukrainian military plane shot down; all 49 aboard dead - CNN.com

The Russian separatists/terrorists took credit for that attack.

Seems to lay the blame at the feet of Russia then, contrary to the OP's position. Air flights are often diverted for weather reasons, so it is understandably strange that a commercial flight would enter a war zone. Still no excuse for shooting down an obvious commercial flight.

 

[Peach]

Please provide credible sources disclosing where other planes have been shot down over Ukraine during this period of time.

Ukrainian military plane shot down; all 49 aboard dead - CNN.com

The Russian separatists/terrorists took credit for that attack.

Seems to lay the blame at the feet of Russia then, contrary to the OP's position. Air flights are often diverted for weather reasons, so it is understandably strange that a commercial flight would enter a war zone. Still no excuse for shooting down an obvious commercial flight.

The area as outside the previous FAA no fly warning, which has been expanded. The path takes less fuel, thus the previous preference of airlines. Prices will go up for longer flights.

 

[mudwhistle]

Ukrainian military plane shot down; all 49 aboard dead - CNN.com

The Russian separatists/terrorists took credit for that attack.

Seems to lay the blame at the feet of Russia then, contrary to the OP's position. Air flights are often diverted for weather reasons, so it is understandably strange that a commercial flight would enter a war zone. Still no excuse for shooting down an obvious commercial flight.

The area as outside the previous FAA no fly warning, which has been expanded. The path takes less fuel, thus the previous preference of airlines. Prices will go up for longer flights.

Well, if it means not getting shot down....I'd pay a few extra bucks.

 

[Peach]

Seems to lay the blame at the feet of Russia then, contrary to the OP's position. Air flights are often diverted for weather reasons, so it is understandably strange that a commercial flight would enter a war zone. Still no excuse for shooting down an obvious commercial flight.

The area as outside the previous FAA no fly warning, which has been expanded. The path takes less fuel, thus the previous preference of airlines. Prices will go up for longer flights.

Well, if it means not getting shot down....I'd pay a few extra bucks.

People will to lessen the odds, the Russian separatists may go underground after this, but so far, continue to block investigation where possible. A nine mile area is unusual.

 

[Camp]

Virgin Atlantic plane was in same area as MH17 when it was shot down | Mail Online

 

[williepete]

The area as outside the previous FAA no fly warning, which has been expanded. The path takes less fuel, thus the previous preference of airlines. Prices will go up for longer flights.

Well, if it means not getting shot down....I'd pay a few extra bucks.

 

[percysunshine]

Maybe I'm missing something, but the only ground weapon that can reach 33,000 feet in that region is a Russian one. The pro-Russian forces were given access to these weapons and trained in their use. I'm all ears as to how you think any different.

There is a more fundamental point. The Separatists do not have any military airplanes to shoot down, only the Ukrainians have military airplanes. Guess who pulled the trigger.

Who said there was a "trigger" ? See Post # 58.

Post number 58 was only marginally lame. Not understanding the concept of 'figure of speech' is, like, really lame.

.

 

[Flopper]

Of course no airline should have been flying through that war zone. So what's the point of mentioning that some idiots DID do that ? And this WAS "hindsight". Some planes had already been shot down a few days before this flight. All the more reason for MA to act responsibly, and stay out of the zone.

Saying the blame lies with MA, as this thread contends is like saying a young girl raped walking through a bad neighborhood is to blame, not the rapist.

In fairness to the airliners that flew over the area, many girls have been raped while walking through a bad neighborhood, but no one has ever shot down a commercial airliner with a missile until now. Kind of caught everyone off guard. Who would suspect a WMD would be given to some random rogue group of thugs. These are people who can't be trusted to guard over dead bodies for a night or two and Russia gave them an anti aircraft system.

Well, it was certainly a surprise, but this isn't the first time an airliner was shot downed with missiles.

Many nations, including the U.S., Europe and the Middle East, routinely fly at high altitudes over tense conflict zones such as the Ukraine, Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. Dozens of other countries that are hot beds of terrorism have numerous flights at both low and high altitudes. If an airline is shot down, some blame the airline for being there. It seems far more logical to blame those that shot the plane down.

List of airliner shootdown incidents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[JoeB131]

I do blame the people who shot the plane down, but the airlines need to rethink their routes as well.

 

[protectionist]

Please provide credible sources disclosing where other planes have been shot down over Ukraine during this period of time.

Ukrainian military plane shot down; all 49 aboard dead - CNN.com

The Russian separatists/terrorists took credit for that attack.

Seems to lay the blame at the feet of Russia then, contrary to the OP's position. Air flights are often diverted for weather reasons, so it is understandably strange that a commercial flight would enter a war zone. Still no excuse for shooting down an obvious commercial flight.

1. Planes flying at 32,000 feet are not "obvious" anything.

2. If in World War II, Americans shot down a commercial plane at 32,000 feet, during the Battle of the Bulge, you'd say they'd have had no excuse ?

3. You don't even know if a person shot the plane down or if was done by a machine. Do you ?