Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
There was not a battlefield at 33,000 feet over Ukraine. Somebody just arbitrarily decided that without giving notice to the people who were using that space.
BTW, there are protocols, laws and agreements. War criminals ignore them.
Some junior officer on the spot made a command decision. He fucked up. End of story.
How the hell do you know that ? YOU DON'T. The missle may have fired automatically, without any human stimulus. How many times do I have to say this. Sheeeeshh!!
The bottom line is very simple: planes get shot down flying over areas such as this, don't fly over it unless you're willing to kill everyone onboard.
This doesn't absolve those responsible for firing the weapon or those who issued the order to do so, but the airline should have used same basic common sense.
You haven't served in the military have you ? In WAR, there IS no responsibility. Each side fights to survive, by any means necessary. Don't want to get shot ? Stay the hell out of the way. FAR away.
What a joke how some people talk about war. Like it was a tennis match.
Was the area under current Ukrainian air attack? And yes, there IS responsibility in war, or should the Israelis just carpet bomb Gaza and be done with it?
its called the Geneva Convention, you fucking moron.
You shut your mouth, you fucking ASSHOLE. Did you serve one day in the military ? I served 5 years. And you want to quote the Geneva Convention to me ? I spent 5 years in the Army during the Vietnam War, when the Geneva Convention wasn't paid one ounce of attention to by the United States. You don't even know what I'm talking about, you dumbshit.
As for the Israelis, they practically ARE carpet bombing Gaza. And hey, you ever hear of Hiroshima ?
There was not a battlefield at 33,000 feet over Ukraine. Somebody just arbitrarily decided that without giving notice to the people who were using that space.
BTW, there are protocols, laws and agreements. War criminals ignore them.
Some junior officer on the spot made a command decision. He fucked up. End of story.
How the hell do you know that ? YOU DON'T. The missle may have fired automatically, without any human stimulus. How many times do I have to say this. Sheeeeshh!!
Do you know what happened to the crew of the USS Vincennes after it made a mistake and shotdown an Iranian airliner ? They got medals .
Despite the mistakes made in the downing of the plane, the men of the Vincennes were awarded Combat Action Ribbons for completion of their tours in a combat zone. Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, received the Navy Commendation Medal.[21] In 1990, The Washington Post listed Lustig's awards as one being for his entire tour from 1984 to 1988 and the other for his actions relating to the surface engagement with Iranian gunboats.[citation needed] In 1990, Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the commanding officer of the Vincennes from April 1987 to May 1989, and the citation made no mention of the downing of Iran Air 655.[47]
Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gee, no one got a medal for shooting it down now did they? Was the technology available as it was in this situation? I'm asking, I don't know. Twenty-five years ago, so there is a good chance the answer is no.
Its a favourite entertainment in US?Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists
Its a favourite entertainment in US?Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists
Angry Ivan... will come at night to your house... drunk. Hide your wives and daughters.
And we dont support separatist=)
Interestingly. Your news showed it?It will prove what we all know now
This is a question that will linger for quite some time.Consider the Titanic.
Captain E. J. Smith was one of the most experienced captains in the world. He was so experienced and respected, he was given command of the Titanic for her maiden voyage.
He had confirmed reports of icebergs on the shorter and faster northern route. A southerly route would be farther to travel and slower but safer. He was under pressure from the company to make a fast crossing. He yielded to the wishes of his company and took the northern route.
Now that he's on the shorter route with known icebergs, it would be prudent to go slow at night. By going slow at night, his crew would have more time to spot the icebergs and avoid them. Or, if they struck, they'd strike at a slower speed and cause less damage. Once again, he was pressured to make a fast crossing. He yielded his command decision to the company's wishes and kept his speed up.
He deliberately and knowingly made the unsafe decision twice.
Was the threat that destroyed his ship and the lives of his passengers the icebergs or Captain Smith's decisions?
So was the threat to MH17 the war zone or the decision to fly over the war zone where other aircraft had already been shot down?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Just wait for the facts. It will prove what we all know now. The Russians supplied the missiles and instructed the idiots on how to use them. The glory seeking rebels wanted to crow about bringing another Ukrainian transport plane down, rushed to judgement, pushed the button and killed nearly 300 people, 80 of which were children.
They brag on Twitter until it is discovered that it was a full passenger jet. Suddenly it is anyone's fault but the Russian back rebels and their father, Putin. They will all be held accountable.
and the opinion of many others---links have already been provided
Right...Seems a lot of people have opinions.
Should MA-17 been in that air space. I do not believe so.
Is this tragedy and slaughter 100% the fault of Malaysian Airlines? Absolutely not.
And anyone that states this is blaming the victims.
FALSE! Malaysian Airlines (except for the crew of MH-17) are not victims. They are at home in Malaysia, safe and sound, making millions of dollars. The people in the plane were the victims.
Multiple airlines use this air corridor. Jesus Christ this is like blaming he fucking rape victim.
Logic and reason are not his forte.
Shut up moron. His dumb post was already refuted days ago.
Invalid thread. You posted someone else's opinion....
Are you nuts ? The thread is 100% valid, and everything in the OP is my opinion.
It is not valid. It is based on data that is wrong. It implies that Malaysia Airlines was the only airline to use the advice of the ICAO. The link to the article I posted shows that that assertion is inaccurate and hence the thesis of the opinion is made null and void with addition to the data that was originally not included in presenting the opinion.
That plane would have also been sending commercial radio signals and a transponder. It is the responsiblity of the aggressor to verify it as hostile.
The may have and they equipment malfunctioned. WTF difference does all this make ?
I mean really ?
Oy vey.All of this is the normal procedure that armies take to defend themselves from air attack. Doesn't matter if someone pushed a button of someone programmed a computer. Bottom line is, there is a WAR going on. ANd if don't want to have your head shot off, you stay the hell away from it. Got it ?
Well, if you want to get all attitudy about it. The nation providing and supplying the anti aircraft batteries, along with those operating it, including assisting in the operation have a legal obligation to pronounce the area of it's operation as a war zone and inform potential targets to stay away from the zone.
There has to be some protocol and internationally accepted legal way to address this exact situation, and there is. I explained it in the first paragraph.
Russia tried to avoid the international laws and agreements about providing this kind of weapon and got caught. They were supplying a heavy weapon that could be used to shoot down civilian airliners to one side of a so called civil war. By admitting that they are supplying the side of a non recognized side of a civil war they make it a war of Russia against Ukraine.
You are suggesting that we use a system of some kind of guessing and figurin' to determine safe flying zones. All because Russia decided to ignore international norms and accepted behavior in it's effort to annex more of it's neighboring state of Ukraine.
In WAR, there ARE no protocols, laws or agreements. You fight to survive and kill your enemy. If some idiots walk onto the battlefield, and get shot, it's because they were idiots. Period. This isn't a tennis game.
I think the inescapable conclusion has to be, the Russians Fucked Up! Firing missiles into an air space with dozens of commercial aircraft without bothering to identify their target has be gross negligence at best.At 33,000 feet it's pretty obvious that a shoulder held SAM was not used. At that attitude the Russian SA-11 radar guided missile is the likely culprit. The MA airline would have lit up the operator radar screen in the battery but it would have been impossible for the operator to tell whether the target was an airline or a similar hostile aircraft. Who ever gave the order to fire either didn't know or didn't care that a number of commercial airliners were in that air space.
From what I know now, I'd go with the didn't know, didn't care or wasn't fully trained on the equipment. The SA-11/17 both have IFF interrogation capability to prevent fratricide. Did the operating team know how to use it or were they knowledgeable enough to know what an airline squawk code was compared to a military code?
A team was working the TELAR (transporter erector launcher and radar). They were probably tied into some sort of command and control network. It's hard for me to believe the decision to launch was made in a vacuum.
Some of you may find this article and video interesting. Warning though: If you play the video, turn your sound down unless you like rap music.
What its like to be sitting behind a radar screen of an SA-11 Buk SAM system
The Aviationist » What it?s like to be sitting behind a radar screen of an SA-11 Buk SAM system
----------------------------------------------------------
The question of the day for investigators is what kind of radar system was being used and by who. The normal system used with the SA-11 Buk would have been able to calculate altitude, speed and size. That data would make the type aircraft identifiable to a trained technician.
Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree. The Russians, the separatists, and the Ukranians are involved in a war, which is really nobody's business but theirs. How would Americans like it if people in Russia said we in America should not rule over the island of Puerto Rico ?... and if Puerto Ricans rebelled, we should not send troops. And that the Russians might send arms to the Puerto rican separatists. We'd probably tell them to mind their own business.
I could understand if Putin was sending troops into Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, in something reminiscient of Hitler's blitzkrieg upon Europe. But this is just a matter between 2 countries, which really ought to be nobody's business but theirs.
So what you have is a war combat zone. Well anyone in his right mind knows that is place to stay away from. Everyone but the people in Malaysia Airlines that is, and the dummies at the International Civil Aviation Organization, who the company has stupidly listened to. Malaysia Airlines said: The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation."
Well, if you see somebody climb to the top of the tallest bridge in your town, and jump off, do you do that too ? It should have been common sense to avoid a combat zone, and Malaysia Airlines and the ICAO both are the ones to blame fro being just plain STUPID. Other airlines rerouted their flights months ago when this zone became one of combat (Quantas, China Airlines, Korean Air, Asiana).
Professor Geoff Dell, a Central Queensland University accident investigation and safety specialist, said Malaysia Airlines should not have been flying over Ukraine.
From as soon as the conflict started they shouldnt have been going anywhere near it, Prof Dell said. They shouldve shifted to alternate routes, like all the other airlines seemed to have done.
So if anyone wants to blame anyone they should blame the officials at Malaysia Airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ukraine-conflict/story-e6frg95x-1226993474860
