Malaysia Airlines Is To Blame. Not the Russians

[Peach]

So we blame the victims now ??

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree. The Russians, the separatists, and the Ukranians are involved in a war, which is really nobody's business but theirs. How would Americans like it if people in Russia said we in America should not rule over the island of Puerto Rico ?... and if Puerto Ricans rebelled, we should not send troops. And that the Russians might send arms to the Puerto rican separatists. We'd probably tell them to mind their own business.

I could understand if Putin was sending troops into Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, in something reminiscient of Hitler's blitzkrieg upon Europe. But this is just a matter between 2 countries, which really ought to be nobody's business but theirs.

So what you have is a war combat zone. Well anyone in his right mind knows that is place to stay away from. Everyone but the people in Malaysia Airlines that is, and the dummies at the International Civil Aviation Organization, who the company has stupidly listened to. Malaysia Airlines said: “The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation."

Well, if you see somebody climb to the top of the tallest bridge in your town, and jump off, do you do that too ? It should have been common sense to avoid a combat zone, and Malaysia Airlines and the ICAO both are the ones to blame fro being just plain STUPID. Other airlines rerouted their flights months ago when this zone became one of combat (Quantas, China Airlines, Korean Air, Asiana).

Professor Geoff Dell, a Central Queensland University accident investigation and safety specialist, said Malaysia Airlines should not have been flying over Ukraine.

“From as soon as the conflict started they shouldn’t have been going anywhere near it,’’ Prof Dell said. “They should’ve shifted to alternate routes, like all the other airlines seemed to have done.’’

So if anyone wants to blame anyone they should blame the officials at Malaysia Airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ukraine-conflict/story-e6frg95x-1226993474860

Yes, anything to defend Russia.

 

[protectionist]

So we blame the victims now ??

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree. The Russians, the separatists, and the Ukranians are involved in a war, which is really nobody's business but theirs. How would Americans like it if people in Russia said we in America should not rule over the island of Puerto Rico ?... and if Puerto Ricans rebelled, we should not send troops. And that the Russians might send arms to the Puerto rican separatists. We'd probably tell them to mind their own business.

I could understand if Putin was sending troops into Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, in something reminiscient of Hitler's blitzkrieg upon Europe. But this is just a matter between 2 countries, which really ought to be nobody's business but theirs.

So what you have is a war combat zone. Well anyone in his right mind knows that is place to stay away from. Everyone but the people in Malaysia Airlines that is, and the dummies at the International Civil Aviation Organization, who the company has stupidly listened to. Malaysia Airlines said: “The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation."

Well, if you see somebody climb to the top of the tallest bridge in your town, and jump off, do you do that too ? It should have been common sense to avoid a combat zone, and Malaysia Airlines and the ICAO both are the ones to blame fro being just plain STUPID. Other airlines rerouted their flights months ago when this zone became one of combat (Quantas, China Airlines, Korean Air, Asiana).

Professor Geoff Dell, a Central Queensland University accident investigation and safety specialist, said Malaysia Airlines should not have been flying over Ukraine.

“From as soon as the conflict started they shouldn’t have been going anywhere near it,’’ Prof Dell said. “They should’ve shifted to alternate routes, like all the other airlines seemed to have done.’’

So if anyone wants to blame anyone they should blame the officials at Malaysia Airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ukraine-conflict/story-e6frg95x-1226993474860

I haven't heard anyone suggest that. Why do you ask ?

 

[Discombobulated]

So we blame the victims now ??

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree. The Russians, the separatists, and the Ukranians are involved in a war, which is really nobody's business but theirs. How would Americans like it if people in Russia said we in America should not rule over the island of Puerto Rico ?... and if Puerto Ricans rebelled, we should not send troops. And that the Russians might send arms to the Puerto rican separatists. We'd probably tell them to mind their own business.

I could understand if Putin was sending troops into Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, in something reminiscient of Hitler's blitzkrieg upon Europe. But this is just a matter between 2 countries, which really ought to be nobody's business but theirs.

So what you have is a war combat zone. Well anyone in his right mind knows that is place to stay away from. Everyone but the people in Malaysia Airlines that is, and the dummies at the International Civil Aviation Organization, who the company has stupidly listened to. Malaysia Airlines said: “The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation."

Well, if you see somebody climb to the top of the tallest bridge in your town, and jump off, do you do that too ? It should have been common sense to avoid a combat zone, and Malaysia Airlines and the ICAO both are the ones to blame fro being just plain STUPID. Other airlines rerouted their flights months ago when this zone became one of combat (Quantas, China Airlines, Korean Air, Asiana).

Professor Geoff Dell, a Central Queensland University accident investigation and safety specialist, said Malaysia Airlines should not have been flying over Ukraine.

“From as soon as the conflict started they shouldn’t have been going anywhere near it,’’ Prof Dell said. “They should’ve shifted to alternate routes, like all the other airlines seemed to have done.’’

So if anyone wants to blame anyone they should blame the officials at Malaysia Airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ukraine-conflict/story-e6frg95x-1226993474860

I haven't heard anyone suggest that. Why do you ask ?

That's exactly what your ill considered premise attempts to do.

 

[protectionist]

From what I know now, I'd go with the didn't know, didn't care or wasn't fully trained on the equipment. The SA-11/17 both have IFF interrogation capability to prevent fratricide. Did the operating team know how to use it or were they knowledgeable enough to know what an airline squawk code was compared to a military code?

A team was working the TELAR (transporter erector launcher and radar). They were probably tied into some sort of command and control network. It's hard for me to believe the decision to launch was made in a vacuum.

Some of you may find this article and video interesting. Warning though: If you play the video, turn your sound down unless you like rap music.

What it’s like to be sitting behind a radar screen of an SA-11 Buk SAM system

The Aviationist » What it?s like to be sitting behind a radar screen of an SA-11 Buk SAM system




----------------------------------------------------------

The question of the day for investigators is what kind of radar system was being used and by who. The normal system used with the SA-11 Buk would have been able to calculate altitude, speed and size. That data would make the type aircraft identifiable to a trained technician.

I think the inescapable conclusion has to be, the Russians Fucked Up! Firing missiles into an air space with dozens of commercial aircraft without bothering to identify their target has be gross negligence at best.

Firing missiles into an air space where no commercial aircraft should ever be, without bothering to identify their target is WAR. Something you appear to be clueless about.
You still think this is more or less a tennis game, with lots of rules. In war, there is one rule. Kill your enemy before he kills you.

 

[protectionist]

So we blame the victims now ??

I haven't heard anyone suggest that. Why do you ask ?

That's exactly what your ill considered premise attempts to do.

Not in any way. The victims are the crew and passengers of MH17. Nobody has laid blame against them. Get a brain.

 

[martybegan]

The question of the day for investigators is what kind of radar system was being used and by who. The normal system used with the SA-11 Buk would have been able to calculate altitude, speed and size. That data would make the type aircraft identifiable to a trained technician.

I think the inescapable conclusion has to be, the Russians Fucked Up! Firing missiles into an air space with dozens of commercial aircraft without bothering to identify their target has be gross negligence at best.

Firing missiles into an air space where no commercial aircraft should ever be, without bothering to identify their target is WAR. Something you appear to be clueless about.
You still think this is more or less a tennis game, with lots of rules. In war, there is one rule. Kill your enemy before he kills you.

Geneva Conventions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dumbass.

 

[Discombobulated]

The question of the day for investigators is what kind of radar system was being used and by who. The normal system used with the SA-11 Buk would have been able to calculate altitude, speed and size. That data would make the type aircraft identifiable to a trained technician.

I think the inescapable conclusion has to be, the Russians Fucked Up! Firing missiles into an air space with dozens of commercial aircraft without bothering to identify their target has be gross negligence at best.

Firing missiles into an air space where no commercial aircraft should ever be, without bothering to identify their target is WAR. Something you appear to be clueless about.
You still think this is more or less a tennis game, with lots of rules. In war, there is one rule. Kill your enemy before he kills you.

No, you are completely wrong.....again. Or should I say continuously? There are obviously many internationally recognized rules and conventions of war. The fact that you are evidently unaware of them renders your statements entirely meaningless.

 

[protectionist]

At his point, I need to point out that the topic of this thread which has advanced to 266 posts is really quite insignificant compared to my other recent OP ("Russia Looking to Annex Ukraine. SO WHAT ?") which has received only 2 posts (one of them mine). Interesting how people can get so involved in this relatively insignificant subject, while ignoring the far more important one.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean-debate-zone/366207-russia-looking-to-annex-ukraine-so-what.html

 

[Discombobulated]

At his point, I need to point out that the topic of this thread which has advanced to 266 posts is really quite insignificant compared to my other recent OP ("Russia Looking to Annex Ukraine. SO WHAT ?") which has received only 2 posts (one of them mine). Interesting how people can get so involved in this relatively insignificant subject, while ignoring the far more important one.

It might be interesting if you had an actual legitimate point to make.

 

[protectionist]

I think the inescapable conclusion has to be, the Russians Fucked Up! Firing missiles into an air space with dozens of commercial aircraft without bothering to identify their target has be gross negligence at best.

Firing missiles into an air space where no commercial aircraft should ever be, without bothering to identify their target is WAR. Something you appear to be clueless about.
You still think this is more or less a tennis game, with lots of rules. In war, there is one rule. Kill your enemy before he kills you.

No, you are completely wrong.....again. Or should I say continuously? There are obviously many internationally recognized rules and conventions of war. The fact that you are evidently unaware of them renders your statements entirely meaningless.

"Evidently ?" HA HA HA. I've known about those rules and conventions since 1954 (and you ?) Now that that's settled, I have a question for you, junior. >>

If this were December 1941, a few days after the Pearl Harbor attack, and thousands of Japanese soldiers were landing on the shores of California, Oregon, and Washington, and you would have to break these "internationally recognized rules and conventions of war", you so piously spout about, to save the lives of millions of Pacific coast Americans (who otherwise would be slaughtered), would you break those rules ? Yes or no ?

 

[protectionist]

At his point, I need to point out that the topic of this thread which has advanced to 266 posts is really quite insignificant compared to my other recent OP ("Russia Looking to Annex Ukraine. SO WHAT ?") which has received only 2 posts (one of them mine). Interesting how people can get so involved in this relatively insignificant subject, while ignoring the far more important one.

It might be interesting if you had an actual legitimate point to make.

I don't. I have a number of legitimate points to make, which you could learn about by reading that OP. Read Baby! Read!

 

[Peach]

At his point, I need to point out that the topic of this thread which has advanced to 266 posts is really quite insignificant compared to my other recent OP ("Russia Looking to Annex Ukraine. SO WHAT ?") which has received only 2 posts (one of them mine). Interesting how people can get so involved in this relatively insignificant subject, while ignoring the far more important one.

It might be interesting if you had an actual legitimate point to make.

I don't. I have a number of legitimate points to make, which you could learn about by reading that OP. Read Baby! Read!

I believe you do, but without an open investigation, how will the world know?

 

[protectionist]

I think the inescapable conclusion has to be, the Russians Fucked Up! Firing missiles into an air space with dozens of commercial aircraft without bothering to identify their target has be gross negligence at best.

Firing missiles into an air space where no commercial aircraft should ever be, without bothering to identify their target is WAR. Something you appear to be clueless about.
You still think this is more or less a tennis game, with lots of rules. In war, there is one rule. Kill your enemy before he kills you.

Geneva Conventions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dumbass.

Even though I know YOU are the "dumbass", I'll still give you also, the opportunity to answer the question I asked in Post # 270. Go ahead. Let's see how your Geneva Convention measures up to THAT.

 

[martybegan]

Firing missiles into an air space where no commercial aircraft should ever be, without bothering to identify their target is WAR. Something you appear to be clueless about.
You still think this is more or less a tennis game, with lots of rules. In war, there is one rule. Kill your enemy before he kills you.

Geneva Conventions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dumbass.

Even though I know YOU are the "dumbass", I'll still give you also, the opportunity to answer the question I asked in Post # 270. Go ahead. Let's see how your Geneva Convention measures up to THAT.

Lol.

 

[protectionist]

It might be interesting if you had an actual legitimate point to make.

I don't. I have a number of legitimate points to make, which you could learn about by reading that OP. Read Baby! Read!

I believe you do, but without an open investigation, how will the world know?

I was referring to the legitimate points in the >> "Russia Looking to Annex Ukraine. SO WHAT ?" thread. You might also check out the legitimate points in my "Egypt: Give Palestinians a Safe Haven" thread.

 

[Discombobulated]

At his point, I need to point out that the topic of this thread which has advanced to 266 posts is really quite insignificant compared to my other recent OP ("Russia Looking to Annex Ukraine. SO WHAT ?") which has received only 2 posts (one of them mine). Interesting how people can get so involved in this relatively insignificant subject, while ignoring the far more important one.

It might be interesting if you had an actual legitimate point to make.

I don't. I have a number of legitimate points to make, which you could learn about by reading that OP. Read Baby! Read!

No you really don't, and you should stop pretending to be the tactical specialist or the grand strategist, or whatever you imagine yourself to be.....because you obviously aren't. I cringe reading your superficial military anecdotes.

 

[Camp]

Firing missiles into an air space where no commercial aircraft should ever be, without bothering to identify their target is WAR. Something you appear to be clueless about.
You still think this is more or less a tennis game, with lots of rules. In war, there is one rule. Kill your enemy before he kills you.

No, you are completely wrong.....again. Or should I say continuously? There are obviously many internationally recognized rules and conventions of war. The fact that you are evidently unaware of them renders your statements entirely meaningless.

"Evidently ?" HA HA HA. I've known about those rules and conventions since 1954 (and you ?) Now that that's settled, I have a question for you, junior. >>

If this were December 1941, a few days after the Pearl Harbor attack, and thousands of Japanese soldiers were landing on the shores of California, Oregon, and Washington, and you would have to break these "internationally recognized rules and conventions of war", you so piously spout about, to save the lives of millions of Pacific coast Americans (who otherwise would be slaughtered), would you break those rules ? Yes or no ?

Ya, now that you mention it, it becomes obvious that a civil war in eastern Ukraine waged by two small counties or districts is just like a Japanese invasion of California, Oregon and Washington by thousands Japanese soldiers after the Pearl Harbor attack.
Same thing, only different.

 

[HUGGY]

... and children killed in drive-bys are at fault for playing outside in gang territory

No...Their parents are. Children are not the best deciders of what is or is not safe. Adults have to choose what is best for their kids. We all wish the world was a safer place...whether it be a known gang territory in Chicago or a civil war zone in Eastern Europe.

I believe Putin is a thug. I believe he provided the missles for the purpose of shooting down supply planes.

We also provide weapons to dangerous parts of the world. By (we) I mean the US companies that make a profit off of the death of other peoples conflicts.

The Malaysian company was attempting to save money on fuel. That is indefenseable.

The safety of any commercial flight is up to the pilot flying the aircraft. The pilots work for the airline and should have refused to fly over that territory. The company should have re routed as they do now and just charged more for the cost of the extra fuel involved.

It is really just that simple.

 

[martybegan]

... and children killed in drive-bys are at fault for playing outside in gang territory

No...Their parents are. Children are not the best deciders of what is or is not safe. Adults have to choose what is best for their kids. We all wish the world was a safer place...whether it be a known gang territory in Chicago or a civil war zone in Eastern Europe.

I believe Putin is a thug. I believe he provided the missles for the purpose of shooting down supply planes.

We also provide weapons to dangerous parts of the world. By (we) I mean the US companies that make a profit off of the death of other peoples conflicts.

The Malaysian company was attempting to save money on fuel. That is indefenseable.

The safety of any commercial flight is up to the pilot flying the aircraft. The pilots work for the airline and should have refused to fly over that territory. The company should have re routed as they do now and just charged more for the cost of the extra fuel involved.

It is really just that simple.

55 other planes used the same air corridor on that day. They included airlines like Lufthansa. Pilots can't fly willy nilly all over the place, they have to follow declared routes using standardized air corridors.

 

[Sonc]

I believe Putin is a thug. I believe he provided the missles for the purpose of shooting down supply planes.

Ukraine near us. War on border isn't favorable to us. It is simple thought. You understand it? McCain arrived to Kiev. The USA gives the credits to Ukraine. Question - to whom it is favorable? Politicians in the USA try to make others hands worse than Russia.
Who can distinctly tell - why we need to force down the plane? Why?

The USA go to Iraq - there war.
The USA go to Afghanistan - there war.
The USA go to Libya - there war.
Who can tell why you there? How many people you killed far from your houses? What for? Why you chooses each time of the president which begins new war? And the new president says lies each time to you. About a reason for invasion into Iraq, for example.
And for your money kill people. Each time to you say lies equally - calling someone another a terrosrist. Or bandit. And you trust... how many years? 10? 20?