Zone1 Mandelbrot Sets -- Proof of God?

[Grumblenuts]

Directed at ding:

Your "predestined to produce life and intelligence" is quite the leap in logic.

Perhaps substitute "negentropy" for "predestined," "Mind," and "Happenstance."

This principle is not easy to understand. The best example of it is life itself. It is the law of order and organization, finality and differentiation. Life has the ability to attract, evolve and bring together ever-increasingly complex forms creating something new. For example, a new galaxy is formed from the ruins of an older galaxy. Individual cells come together in order to create an organism. In nature, there is a force focusing energy to create and maintain a system. This law of life is called Negentropy.

In an organism, the degree of internal disorganization is Entropy and the degree of internal organization is Negentropy. The sum of these two quantities represents the level of health of an organism in the present state and the transformation potential for the evolution of that system or organism [17] [18].

According to the principle of Entropy, all organized forms of matter require more energy than those that are less organized. These organized forms will lose their order and initial energy, unless they are constantly consuming energy. For example, plants need energy in the form of water and sunlight to grow. When that is deprived they begin to decay. Likewise, a new structure or machine will fall apart unless energy is applied to maintain it. Time after time, systems lose energy becoming less efficient allowing for disease, illness and finally death to set in. In order to overcome this natural tendency, Negentropy is an essential principle for balancing it.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

I'm an atheist who likes to think he communicates rationally at times. I simply lack belief in supernatural theories thus far due to their consistent lack of compelling, supportive evidence.

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. TJ​

Mandelbrot Sets -- Proof of God?
240323 {post•82}

You are paying “homage” to a “creator “ of the universe, Voter Grumblenuts by honesty and rationally seeking truth in all things. Rejecting the many supernatural deviations from reality of s fee of the Great Religions like Christianity is no problem at all.

Jefferson and Jesus Keep it Simple Stupid.

“Millions of innocent men, women, and children,
since the introduction of Christianity,
have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned;
yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity.
What has been the effect of coercion?
To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” rbtgrms
– Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), from Notes on the State of Virginia (1787)





The Jefferson Bible, he said, “My aim was to justify the character of Jesus against the fictions of his pseudo-followers… the follies, the falsehoods and the charlatanisms which his biographers father upon him.” – letter to William Short, August 4, 1820


“I believe in both a creative and personal God, a divinely ordered universe, that man has a innate moral sense, and that Jesus was a great moral teacher, perhaps the greatest the world has witnessed.” – letter to his nephew, Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

“To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise … without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisfied, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself about those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence.” – letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820

“It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one…. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of factitious religion, and they would catch no more flies.” – letter to John Adams, August 22, 1813

“The hocus-pocus phantasm of a god like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs.” – letter to James Smith, December 8, 1822

“I trust there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian.” – letter to Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26, 1822



“To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.” – letter to Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803

“That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced.” – letter to William Short, August 4, 1820

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” – letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

“No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship,



place, or ministry whatsoever. ” – Virginia Act for Religious Freedom, 1786

“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.” – letter to his nephew, Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

“I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” – letter to Benjamin Rush, September 23, 1800

“The purest system of morals ever before preached to man (the teachings of Jesus) has been adulterated and sophisticated by artificial constructions into a mere contrivance to filch wealth and power.” – letter to Samuel Kercheval, January 19, 1810



“Paul was the… first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus. These palpable interpolations and falsifications of his doctrines led me to try to sift them apart.” – letter to William Short, April 13, 1820
“The truth is, that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words.” – letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus…. I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.” – letter to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816
“The genuine and simple religion of Jesus will one day be restored: such as it was preached and practiced by Himself.” – letter to Francois Adriaan Van der Kemp, July 9, 1820

“The doctrines of Jesus are simple and tend all to the happiness of man, that



there is only one God and God is perfect. That God and man are one. That to love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself, is the sum of religion. These are the great points on which I endeavor to reform and live my life.” – Letter to Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26, 1822

“Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christians.” – Letter to Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26, 1822

 

[alang1216]

Under the right conditions and given enough time, yes, the universe is an intelligence producing machine.

You presume that intelligence is the goal of the universe. It is not. Intelligence is not special to the universe, only to us. You might more accurately say the universe is an insect producing machine.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

It doesn't take any intellect to describe what something isn't.

Why not? A dead intellect cannot describe either,

Atheism; An Intellectual Dead End 170101 {post•233} ding Jan’17 Saaide: “Atheism being equivalent to intellectual death… ” dvng 170101 Saaide00233


You are dehumanizing all atheists regardless of conduct if being intellectually alive is a necessary condition of being human.

You attack first then whine about being a victim in the free society where you have a right to be a bigot until you seek to participate in the commerce of all.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. TJ​

Mandelbrot Sets -- Proof of God?
240323 {post•82}

You are paying “homage” to a “creator “ of the universe, Voter Grumblenuts by honesty and rationally seeking truth in all things. Rejecting the many supernatural deviations from reality of s fee of the Great Religions like Christianity is no problem at all.

Jefferson and Jesus Keep it Simple Stupid.

“Millions of innocent men, women, and children,
since the introduction of Christianity,
have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned;
yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity.
What has been the effect of coercion?
To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” rbtgrms
– Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), from Notes on the State of Virginia (1787)



View attachment 921210

The Jefferson Bible, he said, “My aim was to justify the character of Jesus against the fictions of his pseudo-followers… the follies, the falsehoods and the charlatanisms which his biographers father upon him.” – letter to William Short, August 4, 1820

View attachment 921215
“I believe in both a creative and personal God, a divinely ordered universe, that man has a innate moral sense, and that Jesus was a great moral teacher, perhaps the greatest the world has witnessed.” – letter to his nephew, Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

“To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise … without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisfied, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself about those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence.” – letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820

View attachment 921213

“It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one…. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of factitious religion, and they would catch no more flies.” – letter to John Adams, August 22, 1813

“The hocus-pocus phantasm of a god like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs.” – letter to James Smith, December 8, 1822

“I trust there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian.” – letter to Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26, 1822

View attachment 921212

“To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.” – letter to Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803

“That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced.” – letter to William Short, August 4, 1820

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” – letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

“No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship,

View attachment 921211

place, or ministry whatsoever. ” – Virginia Act for Religious Freedom, 1786

“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.” – letter to his nephew, Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

“I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” – letter to Benjamin Rush, September 23, 1800

“The purest system of morals ever before preached to man (the teachings of Jesus) has been adulterated and sophisticated by artificial constructions into a mere contrivance to filch wealth and power.” – letter to Samuel Kercheval, January 19, 1810

View attachment 921214

“Paul was the… first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus. These palpable interpolations and falsifications of his doctrines led me to try to sift them apart.” – letter to William Short, April 13, 1820
“The truth is, that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words.” – letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus…. I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.” – letter to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816
“The genuine and simple religion of Jesus will one day be restored: such as it was preached and practiced by Himself.” – letter to Francois Adriaan Van der Kemp, July 9, 1820

“The doctrines of Jesus are simple and tend all to the happiness of man, that

View attachment 921216

there is only one God and God is perfect. That God and man are one. That to love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself, is the sum of religion. These are the great points on which I endeavor to reform and live my life.” – Letter to Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26, 1822

“Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christians.” – Letter to Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26, 1822

Think I've been to all of those except Poplar Forest. Monticello is a must visit for any kid.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Here is all that need be written or verbalized to prove the existence of God:





















?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Grumblenuts said:
Think I've been to all of those except Poplar Forest. Monticello is a must visit for any kid.


I’ll be taking my Grandaughter there when she grows up a little but.


I’ve been Grampa in home daycare in five workday attendance for my 10 month old granddaughter from day one of this amazing creature and hopefully for many years to come.

I was the one working by day helping at night with my two daughters so I missed the kind of unique opportunity that has come to me now. It’s the same with my six grandkids who came before this one I did not get to see them grow up like this.

As I see what’s been created five days a week for ten cherished months, I don’t need intellectual proof that a divine being created all this. Whatever created all this did so as I understand instinctively what art is.

And why great art has an underlying and undefinable quality, but we know it exists when we see it.

 

[zaangalewa]

Every point of the universe is the centre. That's no problem. The problem is where is the universe expanding into? There is no outside. What do you "presume"? Is it expanding into nothing? What if it will hit a wall or another universe? I would say the universe is expanding into itselve. ... Whatever. ... An interesting question is perhaps why it is expanding in our near (around ~3 billion lightyears) faster than in the rest of the universe? Tries the universe to flee us because it noticed you are here? Or was god reckless and he left back a footprint within his own creation? ...

 

[zaangalewa]

...​

Jefferson and Jesus Keep it Simple Stupid.

“Millions of innocent men, women, and children,
since the introduction of Christianity,
have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; ...

Eh? In only one day of the many worst days of the French Revolution (1789-1799) had been executed more people than had been executed worldwide from the catholic church in 500 years. Jefferson lived 1743-1826.

 

[zaangalewa]

You presume that intelligence is the goal of the universe. It is not. Intelligence is not special to the universe, only to us.

We are [the] universe.

You might more accurately say the universe is an insect producing machine.

God created all creatures with love and kindness, big, small, in human or animal form. All are children of the Father and were so perfect in his creation that he gave each his own environment and his animals a home full of rivers, beautiful trees and meadows like paradise itself.
Francis of Assisi

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Jefferson and Jesus Keep it Simple Stupid. “Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; .TJ 1787 two years before the French Revolution

Eh? In only one day of the many worst days of the French Revolution (1789-1799) had been executed more people than had been executed worldwide from the catholic church in 500 years. Jefferson lived 1743-1826.

Could you substantiate your comparison of dead innocents numbers? How do you think you could arrive at such a bold statement?

Jefferson revolted against the Protestant Christian deep state of Great Britain. He could have been crushed had the undermanned and under-gunned colonists failed.

I doubt you can produce any data that backs that up Saint Zaangalewa. I won’t wait.

Jefferson spoke truth about the Catholic Church and State oppression of the masses worldwide in the name of Jesus Christ and the Divine Rights of Kings.

French Revolution

www.monticello.org

​

Jefferson concluded that the French people had not been ready for the leap from "despotism to freedom,"[24] ^ Jefferson to Adams, September 4, 1823, Adams Papers,​

​

… and that if Louis XVI had issued a declaration of rights but been retained as a limited monarch, the French would have avoided "those enormities which demoralised the nations of the world, and destroyed, and is yet to destroy millions and millions of it’s inhabitants."​

Louis XVI made his own bed of silk and gold so he got to sleep in it without his head.

Not feeling much sympathy for that,

 

[zaangalewa]

Could you substant0ate your comparison of dead innocents numbers?

Yes. I did do so some long years ago. I will not repeat this. Believe it or let it be or calculate it on your own.

 

[ding]

You presume that intelligence is the goal of the universe. It is not. Intelligence is not special to the universe, only to us. You might more accurately say the universe is an insect producing machine.

Not the universe, the intelligence behind the creation of the universe. Evolution of space and time didn't stop at insects.

 

[ding]

What do you "presume"?

The "mind" of God.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Yes. I did do so some long years ago. I will not repeat this. Believe it or let it be or calculate it on your own.

I accept Jefferson’s calculations. He had a much better view of Catholic sponsored state terrorism than I do.

Washington Adams and Madison and Tom Paine, and many of the American revolutionaries agreed at the time that the Catholic Church, was, in large part, responsible for all the bloodbaths of Europe.

I can’t believe a word you say about anything

 

[ding]

Here is all that need be written or verbalized to prove the existence of God:





















?

Thank you for proving my point that atheism is an intellectual dead end. I couldn't have demonstrated it better.

 

[zaangalewa]

The "mind" of God.

?

I said to him "to presume" is no method of philosophy including science. What do you say here to me and why do you say this to me?

 

[ding]

?

I said to him "to presume" is no method of philosophy including science. What do you say here to me and why do you say this to me?

I'm telling you what the universe is expanding into.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Thank you for proving my point that atheism is an intellectual dead end.

You got a lot of miles on that gimmick.
It’s how I can tell you are stuck or at a dead end Saint Ding.

All roads leading to truth go through Saint Ding.

Can you get an another BOOK added to the Word of God.

 

[ding]

You got a lot of miles on that gimmick.
It’s how I can tell you are stuck or at a dead end Saint Ding.

All roads leading to truth go through Saint Ding.

Can you get an another BOOK added to the Word of God.

It takes no intelligence at all to deny everything and offer nothing.