Mass shooting: At Least 11 Shot At Gilroy Garlic Festival

[2aguy]

Got it.....looked at your wikipedia link....

Suicides......that is how you do it......

Suicides do not count....Japan, China, have extreme gun control and suicide rates that dwarf ours...as do many countries in Europe and many years Canada.......

You pulled the gun murder, gun suicide trick......

Gun murder is down 49% over the last 26 years as more Americans own and carry guns...sorry.....you have no case.

I agree that suicides are much different than murder.

But it remains a fact that states with more gun ownership have more gun-related death. More guns does not mean more murder, but more guns does in fact mean more death.

And again....suicides do not count. You can count them all day, which is where your number comes from, but countries with extreme gun control have higher suicide rates than we do.....

I don't think this correlation holds true for different countries. Each country has a different culture and different societal norms.

But there is a correlation here in the U.S, which does include suicide. Why do you think that is?

Here...the other issue...suicide...

Fact Check, Gun Control and Suicide



There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world. According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.: Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000. By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people.

Suicide is a mental health issue. If guns are not available other means are used. Poisoning, in fact, is the most common method of suicide for U. S. females according to the Washington Post (34 % of suicides), and suffocation the second most common method for males (27%).

Secondly, gun ownership rates in France and Canada are not low, as is implied in the Post article. The rate of gun ownership in the U. S. is indeed high at 88.8 guns/100 residents, but gun ownership rates are also among the world’s highest in the other countries cited. Gun ownership rates in these countries are are as follows: Australia, 15, Canada, 30.8, France, 31.2, and UK 6.2 per 100 residents. (3,4) Gun ownership rates in Saudia Arabia are comparable to that in Canada and France, with 37.8 guns per 100 Saudi residents, yet the lowest suicide rate in the world is in Saudia Arabia (0.3 suicides per 100,000).

Third, recent statistics in the state of Florida show that nearly one third of the guns used in suicides are obtained illegally, putting these firearm deaths beyond control through gun laws.(5)

Fourth, the primary factors affecting suicide rates are personal stresses, cultural, economic, religious factors and demographics. According to the WHO statistics, the highest rates of suicide in the world are in the Republic of Korea, with 36.8 suicides per 100,000, but India, Japan, Russia, and Hungary all have rates above 20 per 100,000; roughly twice as high as the U.S. and the four countries that are the basis for the Post’s calculation that gun control would reduce U.S. suicide rates by 20 to 38 percent. Lebanon, Oman, and Iraq all have suicide rates below 1.1 per 100,000 people--less than 1/10 the suicide rate in the U. S., and Afghanistan, Algeria, Jamaica, Haiti, and Egypt have low suicide rates that are below 4 per 100,000 in contrast to 13.7 suicides/100,000 in the U. S.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I wasn't trying to bait and switch here.
More guns = more gun-related death when comparing the numbers for each of the states. That's a fact.

Lets assume for the moment you are correct, and there -is- a correlation between gun ownership rates and gun-related death rates.
So?

 

[XponentialChaos]

I wasn't trying to bait and switch here.

More guns = more gun-related death when comparing the numbers for each of the states. That's a fact. Can you address that fact or not?

Yes.....in some states there is more suicide.....Alaska for one, and that has nothing to do with guns.......guns are just the tool used..... if they didn't have guns, they would hang themselves...so guns are not relevant and suicide does not count to the gun murder number....the actual concern around guns and crime.

A few notes here:

The numbers I'm putting up also include accidental deaths.

I don't have the numbers for suicide methods in front of me, but that might be something I'll look at later.

This was strictly gun ownership vs gun deaths.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I don't think this correlation holds true for different countries. Each country has a different culture and different societal norms.

Interesting.
Each state has a different culture and different societal norms
How is your conclusion sound?

Why do you think that is?

Dunno. Tell us.

 

[2aguy]

I wasn't trying to bait and switch here.

More guns = more gun-related death when comparing the numbers for each of the states. That's a fact. Can you address that fact or not?

Yes.....in some states there is more suicide.....Alaska for one, and that has nothing to do with guns.......guns are just the tool used..... if they didn't have guns, they would hang themselves...so guns are not relevant and suicide does not count to the gun murder number....the actual concern around guns and crime.

A few notes here:

The numbers I'm putting up also include accidental deaths.

I don't have the numbers for suicide methods in front of me, but that might be something I'll look at later.

This was strictly gun ownership vs gun deaths.

The CDC has the accidental gun death numbers......

From the CDC accidental gun deaths...keep in mind, we have close to 600 million or more guns in this country and over 17.25 million people can and do carry guns in public for self defense....the numbers?

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html

2017...486
2016 495
2015...489http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe

2014.....461

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824

 

[2aguy]

I wasn't trying to bait and switch here.

More guns = more gun-related death when comparing the numbers for each of the states. That's a fact. Can you address that fact or not?

Yes.....in some states there is more suicide.....Alaska for one, and that has nothing to do with guns.......guns are just the tool used..... if they didn't have guns, they would hang themselves...so guns are not relevant and suicide does not count to the gun murder number....the actual concern around guns and crime.

A few notes here:

The numbers I'm putting up also include accidental deaths.

I don't have the numbers for suicide methods in front of me, but that might be something I'll look at later.

This was strictly gun ownership vs gun deaths.

Notice...as more Americans own and carry guns....the accidental gun death number also went down....

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html

2017...486
2016 495
2015...489http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe

2014.....461

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824

 

[XponentialChaos]

Got it.....looked at your wikipedia link....

Suicides......that is how you do it......

Suicides do not count....Japan, China, have extreme gun control and suicide rates that dwarf ours...as do many countries in Europe and many years Canada.......

You pulled the gun murder, gun suicide trick......

Gun murder is down 49% over the last 26 years as more Americans own and carry guns...sorry.....you have no case.

I agree that suicides are much different than murder.

But it remains a fact that states with more gun ownership have more gun-related death. More guns does not mean more murder, but more guns does in fact mean more death.

And again....suicides do not count. You can count them all day, which is where your number comes from, but countries with extreme gun control have higher suicide rates than we do.....

I don't think this correlation holds true for different countries. Each country has a different culture and different societal norms.

But there is a correlation here in the U.S, which does include suicide. Why do you think that is?

There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

That's interesting right there.

If there's no correlation between gun ownership rates and suicide rate...but there is a correlation between gun ownership and gun-related deaths...then maybe it's due to accidental deaths?

It's hard to say though, because my statistic is coming from the states while yours is globally.

 

[2aguy]

Got it.....looked at your wikipedia link....

Suicides......that is how you do it......

Suicides do not count....Japan, China, have extreme gun control and suicide rates that dwarf ours...as do many countries in Europe and many years Canada.......

You pulled the gun murder, gun suicide trick......

Gun murder is down 49% over the last 26 years as more Americans own and carry guns...sorry.....you have no case.

I agree that suicides are much different than murder.

But it remains a fact that states with more gun ownership have more gun-related death. More guns does not mean more murder, but more guns does in fact mean more death.

And again....suicides do not count. You can count them all day, which is where your number comes from, but countries with extreme gun control have higher suicide rates than we do.....

I don't think this correlation holds true for different countries. Each country has a different culture and different societal norms.

But there is a correlation here in the U.S, which does include suicide. Why do you think that is?

There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

That's interesting right there.

If there's no correlation between gun ownership rates and suicide rate...but there is a correlation between gun ownership and gun-related deaths...then maybe it's due to accidental deaths?

It's hard to say though, because my statistic is coming from the states while yours is globally.

No..... men who commit suicide use guns...women use poison.... I just posted the accidental gun death numbers......they are tiny.....I bet you thought they would be much higher?

 

[XponentialChaos]

I wasn't trying to bait and switch here.

More guns = more gun-related death when comparing the numbers for each of the states. That's a fact. Can you address that fact or not?

Yes.....in some states there is more suicide.....Alaska for one, and that has nothing to do with guns.......guns are just the tool used..... if they didn't have guns, they would hang themselves...so guns are not relevant and suicide does not count to the gun murder number....the actual concern around guns and crime.

A few notes here:

The numbers I'm putting up also include accidental deaths.

I don't have the numbers for suicide methods in front of me, but that might be something I'll look at later.

This was strictly gun ownership vs gun deaths.

The CDC has the accidental gun death numbers......

From the CDC accidental gun deaths...keep in mind, we have close to 600 million or more guns in this country and over 17.25 million people can and do carry guns in public for self defense....the numbers?

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html

2017...486
2016 495
2015...489

2014.....461

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824

By chance, do you have those numbers by state? That would be really useful. If not, I'll try looking into this later.

 

[2aguy]

I wasn't trying to bait and switch here.

More guns = more gun-related death when comparing the numbers for each of the states. That's a fact. Can you address that fact or not?

Yes.....in some states there is more suicide.....Alaska for one, and that has nothing to do with guns.......guns are just the tool used..... if they didn't have guns, they would hang themselves...so guns are not relevant and suicide does not count to the gun murder number....the actual concern around guns and crime.

A few notes here:

The numbers I'm putting up also include accidental deaths.

I don't have the numbers for suicide methods in front of me, but that might be something I'll look at later.

This was strictly gun ownership vs gun deaths.

The CDC has the accidental gun death numbers......

From the CDC accidental gun deaths...keep in mind, we have close to 600 million or more guns in this country and over 17.25 million people can and do carry guns in public for self defense....the numbers?

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html

2017...486
2016 495
2015...489

2014.....461

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824

By chance, do you have those numbers by state? That would be really useful. If not, I'll try looking into this later.

The CDC may break them down, but I imagine you have higher numbers in high crime states...because criminals tend to leave their guns around the home because of other criminals, and their kids find them.......then you have hunting states....gun accidents there too.......

 

[XponentialChaos]

I agree that suicides are much different than murder.

But it remains a fact that states with more gun ownership have more gun-related death. More guns does not mean more murder, but more guns does in fact mean more death.

And again....suicides do not count. You can count them all day, which is where your number comes from, but countries with extreme gun control have higher suicide rates than we do.....

I don't think this correlation holds true for different countries. Each country has a different culture and different societal norms.

But there is a correlation here in the U.S, which does include suicide. Why do you think that is?

There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

That's interesting right there.

If there's no correlation between gun ownership rates and suicide rate...but there is a correlation between gun ownership and gun-related deaths...then maybe it's due to accidental deaths?

It's hard to say though, because my statistic is coming from the states while yours is globally.

No..... men who commit suicide use guns...women use poison.... I just posted the accidental gun death numbers......they are tiny.....I bet you thought they would be much higher?

No expectations. Just general curiosity.

I like to let numbers speak for themselves.

I can also say that when comparing gun ownership rates to murder, there is basically no correlation at all. If anything, it's a very slightly negative correlation at -0.096.

 

[2aguy]

I wasn't trying to bait and switch here.

More guns = more gun-related death when comparing the numbers for each of the states. That's a fact. Can you address that fact or not?

Yes.....in some states there is more suicide.....Alaska for one, and that has nothing to do with guns.......guns are just the tool used..... if they didn't have guns, they would hang themselves...so guns are not relevant and suicide does not count to the gun murder number....the actual concern around guns and crime.

A few notes here:

The numbers I'm putting up also include accidental deaths.

I don't have the numbers for suicide methods in front of me, but that might be something I'll look at later.

This was strictly gun ownership vs gun deaths.

The CDC has the accidental gun death numbers......

From the CDC accidental gun deaths...keep in mind, we have close to 600 million or more guns in this country and over 17.25 million people can and do carry guns in public for self defense....the numbers?

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html

2017...486
2016 495
2015...489

2014.....461

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824

By chance, do you have those numbers by state? That would be really useful. If not, I'll try looking into this later.

CDC may have an injury mapping tag....

 

[2aguy]

And again....suicides do not count. You can count them all day, which is where your number comes from, but countries with extreme gun control have higher suicide rates than we do.....

I don't think this correlation holds true for different countries. Each country has a different culture and different societal norms.

But there is a correlation here in the U.S, which does include suicide. Why do you think that is?

There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

That's interesting right there.

If there's no correlation between gun ownership rates and suicide rate...but there is a correlation between gun ownership and gun-related deaths...then maybe it's due to accidental deaths?

It's hard to say though, because my statistic is coming from the states while yours is globally.

No..... men who commit suicide use guns...women use poison.... I just posted the accidental gun death numbers......they are tiny.....I bet you thought they would be much higher?

No expectations. Just general curiosity.

I like to let numbers speak for themselves.

I can also say that when comparing gun ownership rates to murder, there is basically no correlation at all. If anything, it's a very slightly negative correlation at -0.096.

Yes...the CDC does have state maps.......it is just taking forever to load...

 

[XponentialChaos]

I wasn't trying to bait and switch here.

More guns = more gun-related death when comparing the numbers for each of the states. That's a fact. Can you address that fact or not?

Yes.....in some states there is more suicide.....Alaska for one, and that has nothing to do with guns.......guns are just the tool used..... if they didn't have guns, they would hang themselves...so guns are not relevant and suicide does not count to the gun murder number....the actual concern around guns and crime.

A few notes here:

The numbers I'm putting up also include accidental deaths.

I don't have the numbers for suicide methods in front of me, but that might be something I'll look at later.

This was strictly gun ownership vs gun deaths.

The CDC has the accidental gun death numbers......

From the CDC accidental gun deaths...keep in mind, we have close to 600 million or more guns in this country and over 17.25 million people can and do carry guns in public for self defense....the numbers?

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html

2017...486
2016 495
2015...489

2014.....461

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824

By chance, do you have those numbers by state? That would be really useful. If not, I'll try looking into this later.

The CDC may break them down, but I imagine you have higher numbers in high crime states...because criminals tend to leave their guns around the home because of other criminals, and their kids find them.......then you have hunting states....gun accidents there too.......

I don't think that tendency would go toward criminals.

 

[XponentialChaos]

I don't think this correlation holds true for different countries. Each country has a different culture and different societal norms.

But there is a correlation here in the U.S, which does include suicide. Why do you think that is?

There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

That's interesting right there.

If there's no correlation between gun ownership rates and suicide rate...but there is a correlation between gun ownership and gun-related deaths...then maybe it's due to accidental deaths?

It's hard to say though, because my statistic is coming from the states while yours is globally.

No..... men who commit suicide use guns...women use poison.... I just posted the accidental gun death numbers......they are tiny.....I bet you thought they would be much higher?

No expectations. Just general curiosity.

I like to let numbers speak for themselves.

I can also say that when comparing gun ownership rates to murder, there is basically no correlation at all. If anything, it's a very slightly negative correlation at -0.096.

Yes...the CDC does have state maps.......it is just taking forever to load...

Appreciated. I know you like to talk about this stuff so I'm sure you have plenty of good resources ready to go.

 

[2aguy]

Yes.....in some states there is more suicide.....Alaska for one, and that has nothing to do with guns.......guns are just the tool used..... if they didn't have guns, they would hang themselves...so guns are not relevant and suicide does not count to the gun murder number....the actual concern around guns and crime.

A few notes here:

The numbers I'm putting up also include accidental deaths.

I don't have the numbers for suicide methods in front of me, but that might be something I'll look at later.

This was strictly gun ownership vs gun deaths.

The CDC has the accidental gun death numbers......

From the CDC accidental gun deaths...keep in mind, we have close to 600 million or more guns in this country and over 17.25 million people can and do carry guns in public for self defense....the numbers?

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leading_causes_death.html

2017...486
2016 495
2015...489

2014.....461

2013 ..... 505
2012 ..... 548
2011 ..... 591
2010 ..... 606
2009 ..... 554
2008 ..... 592
2007..... 613
2006..... 642
2005 ..... 789
2004 ..... 649
2003 ..... 730
2002 ..... 762
2001 ..... 802
2000 ..... 776
1999 ..... 824

By chance, do you have those numbers by state? That would be really useful. If not, I'll try looking into this later.

The CDC may break them down, but I imagine you have higher numbers in high crime states...because criminals tend to leave their guns around the home because of other criminals, and their kids find them.......then you have hunting states....gun accidents there too.......

I don't think that tendency would go toward criminals.

Check out accidental deaths in local papers....I know....it isn't the best source...but try to find out if the family is 1) intact 2) has a criminal in the home 3) a history of drug or alcohol abuse.....those are the factors for gun accidents......

 

[2aguy]

There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

That's interesting right there.

If there's no correlation between gun ownership rates and suicide rate...but there is a correlation between gun ownership and gun-related deaths...then maybe it's due to accidental deaths?

It's hard to say though, because my statistic is coming from the states while yours is globally.

No..... men who commit suicide use guns...women use poison.... I just posted the accidental gun death numbers......they are tiny.....I bet you thought they would be much higher?

No expectations. Just general curiosity.

I like to let numbers speak for themselves.

I can also say that when comparing gun ownership rates to murder, there is basically no correlation at all. If anything, it's a very slightly negative correlation at -0.096.

Yes...the CDC does have state maps.......it is just taking forever to load...

Appreciated. I know you like to talk about this stuff so I'm sure you have plenty of good resources ready to go.

So far you seem like a normal person......if you want to discuss the issue I am more than happy too.......the sharp edge to my posts comes from years of debating the issue with people who simply want guns banned no matter what the facts may say...or the concept that normal people should not be disarmed because a tiny number of people use them for crime.

 

[2aguy]

There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

That's interesting right there.

If there's no correlation between gun ownership rates and suicide rate...but there is a correlation between gun ownership and gun-related deaths...then maybe it's due to accidental deaths?

It's hard to say though, because my statistic is coming from the states while yours is globally.

No..... men who commit suicide use guns...women use poison.... I just posted the accidental gun death numbers......they are tiny.....I bet you thought they would be much higher?

No expectations. Just general curiosity.

I like to let numbers speak for themselves.

I can also say that when comparing gun ownership rates to murder, there is basically no correlation at all. If anything, it's a very slightly negative correlation at -0.096.

Yes...the CDC does have state maps.......it is just taking forever to load...

Appreciated. I know you like to talk about this stuff so I'm sure you have plenty of good resources ready to go.

That map is still working to appear.......WISQARS is a great source.....If you use it, I like to get the text only page...it is easier to get the numbers...

 

[XponentialChaos]

That's interesting right there.

If there's no correlation between gun ownership rates and suicide rate...but there is a correlation between gun ownership and gun-related deaths...then maybe it's due to accidental deaths?

It's hard to say though, because my statistic is coming from the states while yours is globally.

No..... men who commit suicide use guns...women use poison.... I just posted the accidental gun death numbers......they are tiny.....I bet you thought they would be much higher?

No expectations. Just general curiosity.

I like to let numbers speak for themselves.

I can also say that when comparing gun ownership rates to murder, there is basically no correlation at all. If anything, it's a very slightly negative correlation at -0.096.

Yes...the CDC does have state maps.......it is just taking forever to load...

Appreciated. I know you like to talk about this stuff so I'm sure you have plenty of good resources ready to go.

So far you seem like a normal person......if you want to discuss the issue I am more than happy too.......the sharp edge to my posts comes from years of debating the issue with people who simply want guns banned no matter what the facts may say...or the concept that normal people should not be disarmed because a tiny number of people use them for crime.

Oh I'm definitely on the other side of you regarding the gun issue.

I just think the truth can be found in the numbers, and the numbers can also be manipulated and misinterpreted.

For example, I think your 26 year argument doesn't work for reasons I've described. Obviously we'll disagree on that though.

 

[XponentialChaos]

That's interesting right there.

If there's no correlation between gun ownership rates and suicide rate...but there is a correlation between gun ownership and gun-related deaths...then maybe it's due to accidental deaths?

It's hard to say though, because my statistic is coming from the states while yours is globally.

No..... men who commit suicide use guns...women use poison.... I just posted the accidental gun death numbers......they are tiny.....I bet you thought they would be much higher?

No expectations. Just general curiosity.

I like to let numbers speak for themselves.

I can also say that when comparing gun ownership rates to murder, there is basically no correlation at all. If anything, it's a very slightly negative correlation at -0.096.

Yes...the CDC does have state maps.......it is just taking forever to load...

Appreciated. I know you like to talk about this stuff so I'm sure you have plenty of good resources ready to go.

That map is still working to appear.......WISQARS is a great source.....If you use it, I like to get the text only page...it is easier to get the numbers...

Can you give me the link? I can take a shot at it.