Minimal Facts Approach Proves Jesus is God

[hortysir]

We don't have a copyright rule here anymore?

 

[BluePhantom]

you can't even think for yourself or make your own arguments You are just taking what others have written and trying to pass it off as your own. That is lying. Isn't there something in the Bible about bearing false witness? You are deceiving this community by portraying yourself as so smart, connected, and faithful, but you are simply copy and pasting other people's ideas and trying to present them as your own inspired by your overwhelming holiness. You are so fond of telling people they are going to hell but by your own standards you will be joining us because you are engaging in deception.

What unbelievable hypocrisy

 

[Parture]

Why Babylon Here Points to Rome

(1) Only one city in the world is built on seven hills or mountains, and that is the city of Rome. Rome historically is called the seven-hilled city (cf. 17.9).

(2) “Fallen” in 17.10 has reference, as we have indicated before, to violent death. Some were murdered, some committed suicide. At the time of John’s writing this book, the king who was then living must have been a Roman Caesar.

(3) Besides the king of Rome there was none else at that time who reigned over the kings of the earth (cf. 17.18).

 

[Skylar]

Almost all scholars who do their peer review journal or accredited work on the resurrection of Jesus, whether they are believers or not, concede some facts can be gleaned from the Scriptures. One of those irrefutable facts is that Paul definitely wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2. In these 3 chapters he does the follow:

• said he spent 15 days with Peter, and also time with John and James and they had nothing to add unto him about what he knew of Jesus;
• he recounts the gospel message that Jesus died for us and rose from the dead to save us;
• various appearances of Jesus resurrected are given by the Apostles;
• Paul gives his own eyewitness account of seeing Jesus alive from the dead with others present with him;
• unless one accepts Christ for salvation to be redeemed and receive eternal life, you are going to Hell.

Since nobody is able these past 2000 years found a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings, we know Jesus is God, salvation is through Him alone, and nothing exists that exists without Him having created it.

Several problems with that reasoning. First, there is a naturalistic explaination to account for the 'eyewitness testimony': 1) They lied. 2) They're wrong. 3) Jesus didn't die on the cross. 4) Jesus didn't exist.

Any one of these explanations are naturalistic. And each is plausible.

Second, Jesus 'resurrecting' doesn't necessarily denote anything beyond the ability to resurrect. IT doesn't confer any innate trait beyond that. Being able to resurrect doesn't mean that one is 'God', or that one is good. So all of your subsequent assumptions regarding the nature of god that can be understood through the resurrection is invalid.

For example, group hallucinations are impossible, people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie, and swoon theory would not convince anyone Jesus was the risen Messiah all tattered and torn, scourged down to the bone, and holes in his hands and feet unable to walk.

Group hallucinations are impossible. Group hysteria isn't. Group think isn't. Groups of people being wrong isn't. A group of people lying isn't. A group of people revising their recollection over time isn't. And people are willing to die over a lie all the time. Ask the Branch Davidians or Jim Jones how impossible it is. Those that didn't die, anyway.

And using your logic of witnesses.....there's more evidence that the Golden Plates of mormon lore are real. As there are eye witnesses to their existence and that of angels.

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, his brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seeen [sic] the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shewn unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvellous [sic] in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Three Witnesses - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

If not the 3 witnesses, then surely the 8. That's more than Jesus had.

Do you accept that the Golden Plates were real, delivered by angels? If not, why not? They had their claims notarized and everything.[/quote]

 

[Parture]

In What Respects Babylon Resembles Rome

(1) Babylon was the first nation which broke through to the Jewish holy land and entered the holy place. But so did Rome.

(2) Babylon, as we have said, means confusion. How very greatly confused was Rome also—and still is! She mixed up the church with the country, the church with the world, law with grace, the traditions of men with the word of God, the pagans with the Christians, Judaism with Christianity, God’s promises to the church with His promises to the Jews, the carnal with the spiritual, the earthly with the heavenly, the present rejection with the future glory. In fact, she is the center of all mixtures. How extensive is her confusion indeed!

(3) The church fathers themselves regarded Rome as Babylon. Tertullian noted that Babylon was Rome. Jerome said, “When I dwelt in Babylon and resided within the walls of the scarlet adulteress, and had the freedom of Rome, I undertook a work concerning the Holy Spirit, which I proposed to ascribe to the Bishop of that city.” And Augustine said, “Babylon is a former Rome, and Rome a later Babylon.” *

* Robert Govett, The Apocalypse Expounded, London: Chas. J. Thynne, 1920, p. 442.

(4) Some prominent Romish writers such as Robert Bellarmine, Cesare Baronius, Jacques Bossuet, and Hug have also admitted that Babylon meant Rome. Bellarmine, for example, wrote this:

“Moreover, John in the Apocalypse everywhere calls Rome Babylon.” *

* Govett, Ibid., p. 442.

There is a school of thought which maintains that Babylon points only to political Rome, not to religious Rome. This concept, though, is erroneous. If Babylon only refers to political Rome, why should “fallen” be mentioned twice in 14.8 and 16.19? For the event represented by the word “fallen” in 14.8 happens before the setting up of the image of the beast; therefore it is an event occurring during the first three and a half years. But the “fallen” (“fell”) told about in 16.19 takes place at the time of the seventh bowl, that is to say, after the setting up of the image of the beast. Hence there must be two different aspects of Babylon in view. This fits in perfectly with both religious Rome (since “Babylon” means confusion, and this confusion prevails in the realm of religion) and political Rome (since “Rome” in Hebrew means “the one who exalts himself”, and how she exalts herself in opposition to God).

 

[Skylar]

In What Respects Babylon Resembles Rome

Oh, you can make an argument that Rome *resembles* Babylon. But you're offering an interpretation. The Bible doesn't make a single mention of the Vatican or nuclear bombs. Neither existed when the Bible was written.

 

[BluePhantom]

Why Babylon Here Points to Rome

(1) Only one city in the world is built on seven hills or mountains, and that is the city of Rome. Rome historically is called the seven-hilled city (cf. 17.9).

(2) “Fallen” in 17.10 has reference, as we have indicated before, to violent death. Some were murdered, some committed suicide. At the time of John’s writing this book, the king who was then living must have been a Roman Caesar.

(3) Besides the king of Rome there was none else at that time who reigned over the kings of the earth (cf. 17.18).

Dude I am not even going to read this. I haven't read it. I don't care what you say because I just provided the link that you stole from that proves that all you are doing is copying and pasting websites and trying to pass it all off as your own. I just provided dead solid, smoking gun, indisputable proof that you have no idea what you are talking about, you can't think for yourself, and you don't have a shred of credibility or integrity. You are a fraud, you are a liar, you are a deceiver, and frankly you are everything the Bible warns us about.

I haven't seen much evidence of "the false prophet" but you are making one hell of a case for being it.

 

[Parture]

Several problems with that reasoning. First, there is a naturalistic explaination to account for the 'eyewitness testimony': 1) They lied. 2) They're wrong. 3) Jesus didn't die on the cross. 4) Jesus didn't exist.

Any one of these explanations are naturalistic. And each is plausible.

None of these theories are plausible. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. You found no naturalistic explanation to account for them being wrong. Jesus would not look much like a risen Messiah all tattered and torn, scourged down to the bone, unable to walk with holes in his feet to convince anyone He resurrected; moreover the Apostles would be lying in that case also, and people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity with more sources for Him than any ten figures combined. If He didn't exist, nor did Aristotle, Julius Caesar, Plato. Good luck finding a historian who makes that claim.

Second, Jesus 'resurrecting' doesn't necessarily denote anything beyond the ability to resurrect. IT doesn't confer any innate trait beyond that. Being able to resurrect doesn't mean that one is 'God', or that one is good. So all of your subsequent assumptions regarding the nature of god that can be understood through the resurrection is invalid.

Being able to resurrect indicates greatness, because man can't do this on his own. This greatness of Jesus extends to Him being God, because only God can resurrect Himself. He has conquered death.

Group hallucinations are impossible. Group hysteria isn't. Group think isn't. Groups of people being wrong isn't. A group of people lying isn't. A group of people revising their recollection over time isn't. And people are willing to die over a lie all the time. Ask the Branch Davidians or Jim Jones how impossible it is. Those that didn't die, anyway.

However hysterical or group think some people might be their testimony is multiply attested in various group settings which involves their eyes. As you admit group hallucinations are impossible. A group of people do not willingly die for what they know is a lie. A group of people with no naturalistic explanation they are wrong are not wrong. The NT was in the proper repository which is in the hands of the early Church and set up the Church based on the resurrection appearances. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. I am sure people die all the time for things but they truly believed them so they did not lie.

And using your logic of witnesses.....there's more evidence that the Golden Plates of mormon lore are real. As there are eye witnesses to their existence and that of angels.

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, his brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seeen [sic] the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shewn unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvellous [sic] in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

We have 45 sources for Jesus, 17 of which are from non-Christian sources. Of those 45 sources 24 speak of resurrection. We have 12 group accounts for the resurrection of Jesus. Of those 17 non-Christian sources, 12 speak of Jesus' death, 12 of His resurrection, and 7 of His deity. Nobody is this well documented in antiquity. It puts Mormon gold plates to shame. All of those who claimed to see gold plates ended up leaving Mormonism. And what's the big deal about seeing gold plates anyway? Silly.

If not the 3 witnesses, then surely the 8. That's more than Jesus had.

Jesus appeared 12 times to different group sizes ranging from just one person to 500 people.

1) Mary Magdalene (Mark 16.9-11; John 20.11-18), Peter in Jerusalem (Luke 24.34; 1 Cor. 15.5), Jesus' brother (insider skeptic) James (1 Cor. 15.7). "And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any [man]; for they were afraid" (Mark 16.8). Some of the New Testament authors explicitly claimed to be eyewitnesses to Jesus' resurrection (and transfiguration). Peter said, "We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Pet. 2.16).John also said, "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched...we proclaim to you what we have seen and heard" (1 John 1.1,3).

2) The other women at the tomb (Matthew 28.8-10).

3) The two travelers on the road (Mark 16.12,13; Luke 24.13-34).

4) Ten disciples behind closed doors (Mark 16.14; Luke 24.35-43; John 20.19-25).

5) All the disciples, with Thomas, excluding Judas Iscariot (John 20.26-31; 1 Cor. 15.5).

6) Seven disciples while fishing (John 21.1-14).

7) Eleven disciples on the mountain (Matthew 28.16-20).

8) A crowd of 500 "most of whom are still alive" at the time of Paul writing (1 Cor. 15.6). This may have been the same group as in Matt. 28.16: the rendezvous was to "to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them." Unlike the other accounts which were unexpected and by surprise, and to gather such a large number of people, this meeting was held outdoors. The women were told to tell the disciples to meet Jesus in Galilee as well. "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted" (Matt. 28.17) may be a reference to many present, both believers and non-believers. Paul had firsthand contact with them. So it was not a legend. He knew some of the people had died in the interim, but most were still alive. He is saying in effect they are still around to be questioned. You can talk to some of the witnesses. He never could have made this challenge if this event had not occurred.

9) "Then to all the apostles" (1 Cor. 15.7) which includes the Twelve plus all the other apostles.

10) Jesus appeared to the disciples in Jerusalem (Luke 24.44-49).

11) Those who watched Jesus ascend to heaven (Mark 16.19,20; Luke 24.50-53; Acts 1.3-8).

12) Least of all Paul (outsider skeptic) with others present and as though he was not living in the proper time (1 Cor. 15.8-9; Gal. 1.13-16; Acts 9.1-8, 22.9, read all of chapters 22 and 26; 13.30-37; 1 Cor. 15.10-20; Gal. 2.1-10).

 

[Parture]

Why Babylon Here Points to Rome

(1) Only one city in the world is built on seven hills or mountains, and that is the city of Rome. Rome historically is called the seven-hilled city (cf. 17.9).

(2) “Fallen” in 17.10 has reference, as we have indicated before, to violent death. Some were murdered, some committed suicide. At the time of John’s writing this book, the king who was then living must have been a Roman Caesar.

(3) Besides the king of Rome there was none else at that time who reigned over the kings of the earth (cf. 17.18).

Dude I am not even going to read this. I haven't read it. I don't care what you say because I just provided the link that you stole from that proves that all you are doing is copying and pasting websites and trying to pass it all off as your own. I just provided dead solid, smoking gun, indisputable proof that you have no idea what you are talking about, you can't think for yourself, and you don't have a shred of credibility or integrity. You are a fraud, you are a liar, you are a deceiver, and frankly you are everything the Bible warns us about.

I haven't seen much evidence of "the false prophet" but you are making one hell of a case for being it.

You're free to shut your mind down and sin bearing false witness, but the evidence is clear Rev. 17 is about religious Rome and Rev. 18 is about political Rome.

 

[Parture]

The Brother of Jesus was a Leader of the Church of the Resurrected Jesus

It's interesting that the two people Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 15 and Galatians 1 are the first two original Apostles he met in Jerusalem after he had spent three years in Damascus. For two weeks in Jerusalem on a fact finding trip he met with Peter and James. We have good evidence in the gospels none of the brothers of Jesus believed he was the Messiah, until that day James saw Jesus resurrected. In fact, Jesus' brothers tried to goad him into a deathtrap by showing himself publically at a feast when they knew the Jewish leaders were trying to persecute and kill him. But then James emerges as one of pillars of the NT church and one of its leaders.

Even if Paul didn't mention James seeing Jesus resurrected, you would have to invent something to account for his transformation and leadership in the church. What would it take to make you believe your brother was the Lord if you didn't see him alive from the dead? He willingly went to his death in AD 67 by the Jewish Sanhedrin for his belief Jesus was Lord, Son of God, resurrected Messiah!

 

[BluePhantom]

Several problems with that reasoning. First, there is a naturalistic explaination to account for the 'eyewitness testimony': 1) They lied. 2) They're wrong. 3) Jesus didn't die on the cross. 4) Jesus didn't exist.

Any one of these explanations are naturalistic. And each is plausible.

None of these theories are plausible. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. You found no naturalistic explanation to account for them being wrong. Jesus would not look much like a risen Messiah all tattered and torn, scourged down to the bone, unable to walk with holes in his feet to convince anyone He resurrected; moreover the Apostles would be lying in that case also, and people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity with more sources for Him than any ten figures combined. If He didn't exist, nor did Aristotle, Julius Caesar, Plato. Good luck finding a historian who makes that claim.

Second, Jesus 'resurrecting' doesn't necessarily denote anything beyond the ability to resurrect. IT doesn't confer any innate trait beyond that. Being able to resurrect doesn't mean that one is 'God', or that one is good. So all of your subsequent assumptions regarding the nature of god that can be understood through the resurrection is invalid.

Being able to resurrect indicates greatness, because man can't do this on his own. This greatness of Jesus extends to Him being God, because only God can resurrect Himself. He has conquered death.

Group hallucinations are impossible. Group hysteria isn't. Group think isn't. Groups of people being wrong isn't. A group of people lying isn't. A group of people revising their recollection over time isn't. And people are willing to die over a lie all the time. Ask the Branch Davidians or Jim Jones how impossible it is. Those that didn't die, anyway.

However hysterical or group think some people might be their testimony is multiply attested in various group settings which involves their eyes. As you admit group hallucinations are impossible. A group of people do not willingly die for what they know is a lie. A group of people with no naturalistic explanation they are wrong are not wrong. The NT was in the proper repository which is in the hands of the early Church and set up the Church based on the resurrection appearances. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. I am sure people die all the time for things but they truly believed them so they did not lie.

And using your logic of witnesses.....there's more evidence that the Golden Plates of mormon lore are real. As there are eye witnesses to their existence and that of angels.

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, his brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seeen [sic] the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shewn unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvellous [sic] in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

We have 45 sources for Jesus, 17 of which are from non-Christian sources. Of those 45 sources 24 speak of resurrection. We have 12 group accounts for the resurrection of Jesus. Of those 17 non-Christian sources, 12 speak of Jesus' death, 12 of His resurrection, and 7 of His deity. Nobody is this well documented in antiquity. It puts Mormon gold plates to shame. All of those who claimed to see gold plates ended up leaving Mormonism. And what's the big deal about seeing gold plates anyway? Silly.

If not the 3 witnesses, then surely the 8. That's more than Jesus had.

Jesus appeared 12 times to different group sizes ranging from just one person to 500 people.

1) Mary Magdalene (Mark 16.9-11; John 20.11-18), Peter in Jerusalem (Luke 24.34; 1 Cor. 15.5), Jesus' brother (insider skeptic) James (1 Cor. 15.7). "And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any [man]; for they were afraid" (Mark 16.8). Some of the New Testament authors explicitly claimed to be eyewitnesses to Jesus' resurrection (and transfiguration). Peter said, "We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Pet. 2.16).John also said, "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched...we proclaim to you what we have seen and heard" (1 John 1.1,3).

2) The other women at the tomb (Matthew 28.8-10).

3) The two travelers on the road (Mark 16.12,13; Luke 24.13-34).

4) Ten disciples behind closed doors (Mark 16.14; Luke 24.35-43; John 20.19-25).

5) All the disciples, with Thomas, excluding Judas Iscariot (John 20.26-31; 1 Cor. 15.5).

6) Seven disciples while fishing (John 21.1-14).

7) Eleven disciples on the mountain (Matthew 28.16-20).

8) A crowd of 500 "most of whom are still alive" at the time of Paul writing (1 Cor. 15.6). This may have been the same group as in Matt. 28.16: the rendezvous was to "to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them." Unlike the other accounts which were unexpected and by surprise, and to gather such a large number of people, this meeting was held outdoors. The women were told to tell the disciples to meet Jesus in Galilee as well. "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted" (Matt. 28.17) may be a reference to many present, both believers and non-believers. Paul had firsthand contact with them. So it was not a legend. He knew some of the people had died in the interim, but most were still alive. He is saying in effect they are still around to be questioned. You can talk to some of the witnesses. He never could have made this challenge if this event had not occurred.

9) "Then to all the apostles" (1 Cor. 15.7) which includes the Twelve plus all the other apostles.

10) Jesus appeared to the disciples in Jerusalem (Luke 24.44-49).

11) Those who watched Jesus ascend to heaven (Mark 16.19,20; Luke 24.50-53; Acts 1.3-8).

12) Least of all Paul (outsider skeptic) with others present and as though he was not living in the proper time (1 Cor. 15.8-9; Gal. 1.13-16; Acts 9.1-8, 22.9, read all of chapters 22 and 26; 13.30-37; 1 Cor. 15.10-20; Gal. 2.1-10).

Here's the link to the website you stole that from. Yet again...word for word

12 Groups Saw Jesus Resurrected

Dude you are pathetic.....stop

 

[Parture]

Several problems with that reasoning. First, there is a naturalistic explaination to account for the 'eyewitness testimony': 1) They lied. 2) They're wrong. 3) Jesus didn't die on the cross. 4) Jesus didn't exist.

Any one of these explanations are naturalistic. And each is plausible.

None of these theories are plausible. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. You found no naturalistic explanation to account for them being wrong. Jesus would not look much like a risen Messiah all tattered and torn, scourged down to the bone, unable to walk with holes in his feet to convince anyone He resurrected; moreover the Apostles would be lying in that case also, and people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity with more sources for Him than any ten figures combined. If He didn't exist, nor did Aristotle, Julius Caesar, Plato. Good luck finding a historian who makes that claim.

Second, Jesus 'resurrecting' doesn't necessarily denote anything beyond the ability to resurrect. IT doesn't confer any innate trait beyond that. Being able to resurrect doesn't mean that one is 'God', or that one is good. So all of your subsequent assumptions regarding the nature of god that can be understood through the resurrection is invalid.

Being able to resurrect indicates greatness, because man can't do this on his own. This greatness of Jesus extends to Him being God, because only God can resurrect Himself. He has conquered death.

Group hallucinations are impossible. Group hysteria isn't. Group think isn't. Groups of people being wrong isn't. A group of people lying isn't. A group of people revising their recollection over time isn't. And people are willing to die over a lie all the time. Ask the Branch Davidians or Jim Jones how impossible it is. Those that didn't die, anyway.

However hysterical or group think some people might be their testimony is multiply attested in various group settings which involves their eyes. As you admit group hallucinations are impossible. A group of people do not willingly die for what they know is a lie. A group of people with no naturalistic explanation they are wrong are not wrong. The NT was in the proper repository which is in the hands of the early Church and set up the Church based on the resurrection appearances. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. I am sure people die all the time for things but they truly believed them so they did not lie.

And using your logic of witnesses.....there's more evidence that the Golden Plates of mormon lore are real. As there are eye witnesses to their existence and that of angels.

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, his brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seeen [sic] the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shewn unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvellous [sic] in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

We have 45 sources for Jesus, 17 of which are from non-Christian sources. Of those 45 sources 24 speak of resurrection. We have 12 group accounts for the resurrection of Jesus. Of those 17 non-Christian sources, 12 speak of Jesus' death, 12 of His resurrection, and 7 of His deity. Nobody is this well documented in antiquity. It puts Mormon gold plates to shame. All of those who claimed to see gold plates ended up leaving Mormonism. And what's the big deal about seeing gold plates anyway? Silly.

If not the 3 witnesses, then surely the 8. That's more than Jesus had.

Jesus appeared 12 times to different group sizes ranging from just one person to 500 people.

1) Mary Magdalene (Mark 16.9-11; John 20.11-18), Peter in Jerusalem (Luke 24.34; 1 Cor. 15.5), Jesus' brother (insider skeptic) James (1 Cor. 15.7). "And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any [man]; for they were afraid" (Mark 16.8). Some of the New Testament authors explicitly claimed to be eyewitnesses to Jesus' resurrection (and transfiguration). Peter said, "We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Pet. 2.16).John also said, "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched...we proclaim to you what we have seen and heard" (1 John 1.1,3).

2) The other women at the tomb (Matthew 28.8-10).

3) The two travelers on the road (Mark 16.12,13; Luke 24.13-34).

4) Ten disciples behind closed doors (Mark 16.14; Luke 24.35-43; John 20.19-25).

5) All the disciples, with Thomas, excluding Judas Iscariot (John 20.26-31; 1 Cor. 15.5).

6) Seven disciples while fishing (John 21.1-14).

7) Eleven disciples on the mountain (Matthew 28.16-20).

8) A crowd of 500 "most of whom are still alive" at the time of Paul writing (1 Cor. 15.6). This may have been the same group as in Matt. 28.16: the rendezvous was to "to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them." Unlike the other accounts which were unexpected and by surprise, and to gather such a large number of people, this meeting was held outdoors. The women were told to tell the disciples to meet Jesus in Galilee as well. "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted" (Matt. 28.17) may be a reference to many present, both believers and non-believers. Paul had firsthand contact with them. So it was not a legend. He knew some of the people had died in the interim, but most were still alive. He is saying in effect they are still around to be questioned. You can talk to some of the witnesses. He never could have made this challenge if this event had not occurred.

9) "Then to all the apostles" (1 Cor. 15.7) which includes the Twelve plus all the other apostles.

10) Jesus appeared to the disciples in Jerusalem (Luke 24.44-49).

11) Those who watched Jesus ascend to heaven (Mark 16.19,20; Luke 24.50-53; Acts 1.3-8).

12) Least of all Paul (outsider skeptic) with others present and as though he was not living in the proper time (1 Cor. 15.8-9; Gal. 1.13-16; Acts 9.1-8, 22.9, read all of chapters 22 and 26; 13.30-37; 1 Cor. 15.10-20; Gal. 2.1-10).

Here's the link to the website you stole that from. Yet again...word for word

12 Groups Saw Jesus Resurrected

Dude you are pathetic.....stop

You're pathetic how you shut your mind down. Bottom line. There is no naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings, so this proves you are going to Hell. You're a bad guy. You know that about yourself and you are playing the part.

 

[Parture]

12 Historical Facts (Most Critical Scholars Believe These 12 items)

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.

2. He was buried.

3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.

4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).

5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).

6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.

7. The resurrection was the central message.

8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.

9. The Church was born and grew.

10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.

11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).

12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

 

[BluePhantom]

The Brother of Jesus was a Leader of the Church of the Resurrected Jesus

It's interesting that the two people Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 15 and Galatians 1 are the first two original Apostles he met in Jerusalem after he had spent three years in Damascus. For two weeks in Jerusalem on a fact finding trip he met with Peter and James. We have good evidence in the gospels none of the brothers of Jesus believed he was the Messiah, until that day James saw Jesus resurrected. In fact, Jesus' brothers tried to goad him into a deathtrap by showing himself publically at a feast when they knew the Jewish leaders were trying to persecute and kill him. But then James emerges as one of pillars of the NT church and one of its leaders.

Even if Paul didn't mention James seeing Jesus resurrected, you would have to invent something to account for his transformation and leadership in the church. What would it take to make you believe your brother was the Lord if you didn't see him alive from the dead? He willingly went to his death in AD 67 by the Jewish Sanhedrin for his belief Jesus was Lord, Son of God, resurrected Messiah!

Here is the website you stole that from...look at post #968

Why I Don t Believe in Atheism

 

[Parture]

What Do Most Scholars Believe?

In The Case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel (p. 112), Mike Licona said, "[Gary] Habermas has compiled a list of more than 2,200 sources in French, German, and English in which experts have written on the resurrection from 1975 to the present. He has identified minimal facts that are strongly evidenced and which are regarded as historical by a large majority of scholars, including skeptics. We try to come up with the best historical explanation to account for these facts. This is called the Minimal Facts Approach."

William Lane Craig (sadly, a non-OSASer) does confirm Habermas recorded 1400 scholars (both skeptics and non-skeptics alike) whom 75% agree the tomb was empty and nearly all agree the original disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead bodily, for a vision wouldn't convince the disciples of resurrection.

Gary Habermas said (2009) on the John Ankerberg Show, "I just did a count recently of what scholars say. First of all you can count guys on one hand of the 2400 sources since 1975 on the resurrection [in] French, German, English...who think apparent death [is true]. When scholars respond they still cite David Strauss. I think we would all like to have that kind of influence in our writings. His critique has been around almost 200 years." Habermas was referring to Strauss's argument that Jesus wouldn't look much like a risen Messiah to the disciples all battered and bruised.

Habermas and Licona co-authored the award winning book, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus (2004). Historian Paul Maier said the book's response to naturalistic explanations for the resurrection "are the most comprehensive treatment of the subject anywhere." Philosopher J. P. Moreland said the book presented what "may be the most thorough defense of historicity of the resurrection."

 

[BluePhantom]

12 Historical Facts (Most Critical Scholars Believe These 12 items)

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.

2. He was buried.

3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.

4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).

5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).

6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.

7. The resurrection was the central message.

8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.

9. The Church was born and grew.

10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.

11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).

12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

Here's the website you stole that from

12 Historical Facts - Gary Habermas

 

[Parture]

The Brother of Jesus was a Leader of the Church of the Resurrected Jesus

It's interesting that the two people Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 15 and Galatians 1 are the first two original Apostles he met in Jerusalem after he had spent three years in Damascus. For two weeks in Jerusalem on a fact finding trip he met with Peter and James. We have good evidence in the gospels none of the brothers of Jesus believed he was the Messiah, until that day James saw Jesus resurrected. In fact, Jesus' brothers tried to goad him into a deathtrap by showing himself publically at a feast when they knew the Jewish leaders were trying to persecute and kill him. But then James emerges as one of pillars of the NT church and one of its leaders.

Even if Paul didn't mention James seeing Jesus resurrected, you would have to invent something to account for his transformation and leadership in the church. What would it take to make you believe your brother was the Lord if you didn't see him alive from the dead? He willingly went to his death in AD 67 by the Jewish Sanhedrin for his belief Jesus was Lord, Son of God, resurrected Messiah!

Here is the website you stole that from...look at post #968

Why I Don t Believe in Atheism

You're just sinning bearing false witness.

 

[Parture]

Gary said in a 2009 Ankerberg video, "If we start with the cross approximately 30 AD and call that ground zero, 1 Corinthians 15 checks in at about 55 AD whatever the writer, conservative or not conservative, we have 25 years. In ancient historiography this is incredible in a time when the best known biography of Alexander the Great is that of Plutarch almost 400 years after Plutarch. When we learn about the early Caesars from Tacitus to Suetonius a 'good gap' is 100 years; 25 is incredible [for Jesus]. Paul says, 'I am passing onto you as first importance that which I also received' (1 Cor. 15.3)." Paul said, "I make known to you brethren the gospel which I preached to you" (1 Cor. 15.1). Gary says, "This earlier preaching may have taken place 51 AD about 21 years after the cross." But point of fact, Jesus died not in 30 AD, but 33 AD on April Fool's Day, Friday, April 1 (Gregorian) which I am sure of just +18 years after the cross.

 

[Parture]

Gary said, "Almost all contemporary scholarship believes Paul received this material (Gal. 1.18) when he went to Jerusalem about 5 years after the cross. Some put it as early as 3 and as late as 8, but he was converted about 2 years after the cross before he went away for 3 years. Paul spent 15 days with Peter. It is safe to say they talked about more than just the weather. Paul said he preached nothing but Christ crucified." Gary said about James D.G. Dunn, "In his recent book Remembering Jesus that this passage (1 Cor. 15.3ff) wasn't just taught. It was already stratified. It was already put in this creedal form within months of the crucifixion."

 

[BluePhantom]

What Do Most Scholars Believe?

In The Case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel (p. 112), Mike Licona said, "[Gary] Habermas has compiled a list of more than 2,200 sources in French, German, and English in which experts have written on the resurrection from 1975 to the present. He has identified minimal facts that are strongly evidenced and which are regarded as historical by a large majority of scholars, including skeptics. We try to come up with the best historical explanation to account for these facts. This is called the Minimal Facts Approach."

William Lane Craig (sadly, a non-OSASer) does confirm Habermas recorded 1400 scholars (both skeptics and non-skeptics alike) whom 75% agree the tomb was empty and nearly all agree the original disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead bodily, for a vision wouldn't convince the disciples of resurrection.

Gary Habermas said (2009) on the John Ankerberg Show, "I just did a count recently of what scholars say. First of all you can count guys on one hand of the 2400 sources since 1975 on the resurrection [in] French, German, English...who think apparent death [is true]. When scholars respond they still cite David Strauss. I think we would all like to have that kind of influence in our writings. His critique has been around almost 200 years." Habermas was referring to Strauss's argument that Jesus wouldn't look much like a risen Messiah to the disciples all battered and bruised.

Habermas and Licona co-authored the award winning book, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus (2004). Historian Paul Maier said the book's response to naturalistic explanations for the resurrection "are the most comprehensive treatment of the subject anywhere." Philosopher J. P. Moreland said the book presented what "may be the most thorough defense of historicity of the resurrection."

Here's the website you stole that from

12 Historical Facts - Gary Habermas

I can do this all night brother. How about this...give me a theological point that I can't find posted by someone else that you are stealing from someone. BTW...stealing is a sin. I am sure you know that but I just wanted to remind you