Minimum wage rate and labors’ market prices.

[Toddsterpatriot]

... Thus, if due to extents of minimum wage increases replacing the lowest income family’s unemployment and/or public assistance benefits, the 5.2% increase of their total incomes would imply a much greater proportional increase of only their wage incomes. ... Please do the math.

Your new theory is that increasing the minimum wage by over 100% (over time) ends up reducing low end government benefits on the order of 90% plus of the increased wage?
Damn! That's one hell of a marginal tax rate!!!

I wonder if you can find any studies to support your theory? ...
... Income at $7.25 wage $1450
Benefits $1450
Total $2900

Income at $15 wage $3000
Benefits $50
Total $3050

Increase $150/$2900~5.2%

Marginal rate on $1550 increase in wages......90.3%, based only on the loss of benefits.
With the increased payroll and income tax, the marginal rate would easily top 100%.

ToddsterPatriot, minimum wage rates directly support job’s low-wage rates and less directly those workers’ wage incomes.

CBO projected the minimum rate being gradually increased until it reaches $15 per hour in 2025. They projected family’s incomes that are less than three times their family sizes’ poverty thresholds would have increased their incomes by a range of 5.2% to 3.4%. To the extents that any of those family’s unemployment insurance and other social welfare benefits were replaced by additional wage incomes, those families wage incomes must have increased by a range much greater than 5.2% to 3.4%

You’re not pretending to be foolishly ignorant and less logical? You cannot or will not do the math?

Did you say something?
I couldn't hear you over the laughing about your "reduction in benefits" claim.

Maybe if you reread your CBO link, you'll understand your error?

 

[Supposn]

... Maybe if you reread your CBO link, you'll understand your error?

Toddsterpatrot, did you misplace it or you never found it?
I have no interest in speculating upon whatever you're unable or unwilling to post.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

... Maybe if you reread your CBO link, you'll understand your error?

Toddsterpatrot, did you misplace it or you never found it?
I have no interest in speculating upon whatever you're unable or unwilling to post.

Toddsterpatrot, did you misplace it or you never found it?

No, I did not misplace your error.

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2019-07/CBO-55410-MinimumWage2019.pdf

 

[danielpalos]

Nothing but red herring on your part.

Right.

Every time I point out your lies, it's a red herring.

Not my lie. I quoted the first paragraph, nothing more. It is a red herring for you to claim I am resorting to fallacy to try to cover for your lack of argument.

Not my lie.

Omitting the highlighted portion.......

View attachment 417255

Makes it your lie.

lol. What did I lie about when I included the link and a paragraph? Remember right wingers, doing unto others regarding lies and lying as you would have others on the left do unto you is moral for political purposes.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What did I lie about when I included the link and a paragraph?

You lied by not posting the fact that article was about the CEOs of 350 of the
largest companies in the world, not all 200,000+ CEOs in the US.

 

[danielpalos]

What did I lie about when I included the link and a paragraph?

You lied by not posting the fact that article was about the CEOs of 350 of the
largest companies in the world, not all 200,000+ CEOs in the US.

Not my lie. Why are so few CEOs rich? Too many poor CEOs not putting down the bowl enough.

 

[Supposn]

Toddsterpatrot, did you misplace it or you never found it?

No, I did not misplace your, {i.e. Supposn's] error.

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2019-07/CBO-55410-MinimumWage2019.pdf

ToddsterPatriot, you believe my argument in favor of minimum wage laws is in fact or logical error, but you won’t reveal or even hint what you consider to be that error? Is there something you’re ashamed to reveal or you have great concern that you may embarrass me?

I have thick skin and a high regard for what I consider to be in our nation’s best interests. Please, reveal your thoughts if you believe they’re in our nation’s best interest.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Toddsterpatrot, did you misplace it or you never found it?

No, I did not misplace your, {i.e. Supposn's] error.

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2019-07/CBO-55410-MinimumWage2019.pdf

ToddsterPatriot, you believe my argument in favor of minimum wage laws is in fact or logical error, but you won’t reveal or even hint what you consider to be that error? Is there something you’re ashamed to reveal or you have great concern that you may embarrass me?

I have thick skin and a high regard for what I consider to be in our nation’s best interests. Please, reveal your thoughts if you believe they’re in our nation’s best interest.

Your argument, yesterday, that doubling the FMW only increases family income (below 3 times poverty threshold) by 5.2% - 3.4%, because government benefits are reduced by more than 90% of their increased income, was wrong.

Page 7 of 52 in your CBO source........

Let me know if you're still confused.

 

[Supposn]

Your argument, yesterday, that doubling the FMW only increases family income (below 3 times poverty threshold) by 5.2% - 3.4%, because government benefits are reduced by more than 90% of their increased income, was wrong.
Page 7 of 52 in your CBO source........ View attachment 417479

Let me know if you're still confused.

ToddsterPatriot, I don’t know why I’m unable to cut and paste from the link you provided, but I was led to find this, which seems to be the same as your provided link:
I found this on page 3, among the foot notes for table 1, which is a chart labeled “Effects of Increases in the Federal Minimum Wage on Employment, Income, and Poverty, 2025”.
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2019-07/CBO-55410-MinimumWage2019.pdf :
“Changes in real (inflation-adjusted) income reflect changes in before-tax family cash income. Those changes include increases in earnings for workers who would receive a higher wage, decreases in earnings for workers who would become jobless, losses in income for business owners, and decreases in income because of increases in prices”.

Your post remains to be an inexplicit riddle. What and/or where’s this, “…government benefits are reduced by more than 90% of their increased income”, you mention?
Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Your argument, yesterday, that doubling the FMW only increases family income (below 3 times poverty threshold) by 5.2% - 3.4%, because government benefits are reduced by more than 90% of their increased income, was wrong.
Page 7 of 52 in your CBO source........ View attachment 417479

Let me know if you're still confused.

ToddsterPatriot, I don’t know why I’m unable to cut and paste from the link you provided, but I was led to find this, which seems to be the same as your provided link:
I found this on page 3, among the foot notes for table 1, which is a chart labeled “Effects of Increases in the Federal Minimum Wage on Employment, Income, and Poverty, 2025”.
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2019-07/CBO-55410-MinimumWage2019.pdf :
“Changes in real (inflation-adjusted) income reflect changes in before-tax family cash income. Those changes include increases in earnings for workers who would receive a higher wage, decreases in earnings for workers who would become jobless, losses in income for business owners, and decreases in income because of increases in prices”.

Your post remains to be an inexplicit riddle. What and/or where’s this, “…government benefits are reduced by more than 90% of their increased income”, you mention?
Respectfully, Supposn

“Changes in real (inflation-adjusted) income reflect changes in before-tax family cash income.

Excellent!

Your post remains to be an inexplicit riddle.

Are you suffering from dementia or some other disease which impacts your memory?

Serious question.

Yesterday, in post #525, you said.....

As you've just discovered, your own CBO source refutes, again, one of your claims.

Then, in post #530, you said....

In post #533, I "did the math" and showed your "replacement" claim would mean a
marginal tax rate on new earnings with a $15 minimum wage of over 100%.

It wasn't really over 100%, because the CBO was using cash income, ignoring government benefits.

Is your error clear to you now?

 

[Supposn]

ToddsterPatriot, minimum wage rate increases between 2017 and 2025 can directly contribute to increase lower-wage rates and wage differential, within 2025. They cannot even indirectly much contribute to non-wage incomes and benefits within that duration of years.

Wage rate, to the extent of its purchasing power and its enforcement, reduces incidences and extents of poverty among the working-poor and their dependents.
Due to minimum wage laws and employers’ wage differential practices, minimum wage rate more or less directly affects no less than the lower earning fifth of USA’s employees’ rates and wages; More than 30% of USA employees rates and wages are influenced by minimum wage rates.

Congressional Budget Offices, (i.e.CBO’s) reports regarding proposed federal minimum wage rate increases between 2017 and 2025. The increases can more or less directly contribute to increase lower-wage rates and wage differential, within 2025. They cannot even indirectly much contribute to non-wage incomes and benefits within that duration of years.
They cannot at all directly affect retirement or disability pensions, Social Security, or unemployment, and other government and non-government social and financial benefits which are not rare or unusual among lower income families and households.

CBO chose or were directed to report upon proposed federal minimum wage rate’s projected effects upon families of various INCOMES proportional to various multiples of those family sizes’ poverty thresholds. CBO projects families of incomes less than 3 times their family sizes’ poverty thresholds; the increased purchasing power of their incomes in 2025 would range from 5.2% to 3.4% of their incomes.

To whatever extent their incomes and benefits were calculated to include items that would not in 2025 be effected, or little affected by the minimum rate, The range of 5.2% to 3.4% understates minimum rate’s affects upon families’ wage rates and wage incomes.

Can you explain how your post relates specifically and only to wages? Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Wyatt earp]

ToddsterPatriot, minimum wage rate increases between 2017 and 2025 can directly contribute to increase lower-wage rates and wage differential, within 2025. They cannot even indirectly much contribute to non-wage incomes and benefits within that duration of years.

Wage rate, to the extent of its purchasing power and its enforcement, reduces incidences and extents of poverty among the working-poor and their dependents.
Due to minimum wage laws and employers’ wage differential practices, minimum wage rate more or less directly affects no less than the lower earning fifth of USA’s employees’ rates and wages; More than 30% of USA employees rates and wages are influenced by minimum wage rates.

Congressional Budget Offices, (i.e.CBO’s) reports regarding proposed federal minimum wage rate increases between 2017 and 2025. The increases can more or less directly contribute to increase lower-wage rates and wage differential, within 2025. They cannot even indirectly much contribute to non-wage incomes and benefits within that duration of years.
They cannot at all directly retirement or disability pensions, Social Security, or unemployment, and other government and non-government social and financial benefits which are not rare or unusual among lower income families and households.

CBO chose or were directed to report upon proposed federal minimum wage rate’s projected effects upon families of various INCOMES proportional to various multiples of those family sizes’ poverty thresholds. CBO projects families of incomes less than 3 times their family sizes’ poverty thresholds, the increased purchasing power of their incomes in 2025 would range from 5.2% to 3.4% of their incomes.

To whatever extent their incomes and benefits were calculated to include items that would not in 2025 be effected, or little affected by the minimum rate, The range of 5.2% to 3.4% understates minimum rate’s affects upon families’ wage rates and wage incomes.

Can you explain how your post relates specifically and only to wages? Respectfully, Supposn

Your projecting if the jobs remain the same..

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

ToddsterPatriot, minimum wage rate increases between 2017 and 2025 can directly contribute to increase lower-wage rates and wage differential, within 2025. They cannot even indirectly much contribute to non-wage incomes and benefits within that duration of years.

Wage rate, to the extent of its purchasing power and its enforcement, reduces incidences and extents of poverty among the working-poor and their dependents.
Due to minimum wage laws and employers’ wage differential practices, minimum wage rate more or less directly affects no less than the lower earning fifth of USA’s employees’ rates and wages; More than 30% of USA employees rates and wages are influenced by minimum wage rates.

Congressional Budget Offices, (i.e.CBO’s) reports regarding proposed federal minimum wage rate increases between 2017 and 2025. The increases can more or less directly contribute to increase lower-wage rates and wage differential, within 2025. They cannot even indirectly much contribute to non-wage incomes and benefits within that duration of years.
They cannot at all directly retirement or disability pensions, Social Security, or unemployment, and other government and non-government social and financial benefits which are not rare or unusual among lower income families and households.

CBO chose or were directed to report upon proposed federal minimum wage rate’s projected effects upon families of various INCOMES proportional to various multiples of those family sizes’ poverty thresholds. CBO projects families of incomes less than 3 times their family sizes’ poverty thresholds, the increased purchasing power of their incomes in 2025 would range from 5.2% to 3.4% of their incomes.

To whatever extent their incomes and benefits were calculated to include items that would not in 2025 be effected, or little affected by the minimum rate, The range of 5.2% to 3.4% understates minimum rate’s affects upon families’ wage rates and wage incomes.

Can you explain how your post relates specifically and only to wages? Respectfully, Supposn

More than 30% of USA employees rates and wages are influenced by minimum wage rates.

Link?

The increases can more or less directly contribute to increase lower-wage rates and wage differential, within 2025. They cannot even indirectly much contribute to non-wage incomes and benefits within that duration of years.

You're right, your CBO link didn't mention non-wage benefits in the table you referenced.
It's like you pulled your claim out of thin air.

CBO projects families of incomes less than 3 times their family sizes’ poverty thresholds, the increased purchasing power of their incomes in 2025 would range from 5.2% to 3.4% of their incomes.

I know! More than doubling the minimum wage only increases real annual income for families below the poverty level by a measly 5.2%. A piddling $7.7 billion for those families.

The range of 5.2% to 3.4% understates minimum rate’s affects upon families’ wage rates and wage incomes.

Your CBO link understates the effects? Are you basing this claim on your math?

Can you explain how your post relates specifically and only to wages?

My post pointed out the error in your benefits claim.
By using your source.

 

[Supposn]

Your projecting if the jobs remain the same..

Bear513 and ToddsterPatriot,
Excerpted from:
https://www.census.gov/topics/income-poverty/poverty/guidance/poverty-measures.htmlNovember 19, 2020
… How the Census Bureau Measures Poverty
Following the Office of Management and Budget's (OMB) Statistical Policy Directive 14, the Census Bureau uses a set of money income thresholds that vary by family size and composition to determine who is in poverty. If a family's total income is less than the family's threshold, then that family and every individual in it is considered in poverty. The official poverty thresholds do not vary geographically, but they are updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index (CPI-U). The official poverty definition uses money income before taxes and does not include capital gains or noncash benefits (such as public housing, Medicaid, and food stamps). … … Money Income: Income Used to Compute Poverty Status The income used to compute poverty status includes (before taxes): Earnings
Unemployment compensation
Workers' compensation
Social Security
Supplemental Security Income
Public assistance
Veterans' payments
Survivor benefits
Pension or retirement income
Interest
Dividends
Rents
Royalties
Income from estates
Trusts
Educational assistance
Alimony
Child support
Assistance from outside the household
Other miscellaneous sources

Money income does not include:
Capital gains or losses
Noncash benefits (e.g. food stamps and housing subsidies)
Tax credits …
/////////////////////////
referring to, https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2019-07/CBO-55410-MinimumWage2019.pdf
Excerpted from page 10: … The definitions of income and of poverty thresholds are those used by the Census Bureau to determine the official poverty rate. CBO projects that in 2025, the poverty threshold (in 2018 dollars) will be $20,480 for a family of three and $26,330 for a family of four.
////////
Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Your projecting if the jobs remain the same..

Bear513 and ToddsterPatriot,
Excerpted from:
https://www.census.gov/topics/income-poverty/poverty/guidance/poverty-measures.htmlNovember 19, 2020
… How the Census Bureau Measures Poverty
Following the Office of Management and Budget's (OMB) Statistical Policy Directive 14, the Census Bureau uses a set of money income thresholds that vary by family size and composition to determine who is in poverty. If a family's total income is less than the family's threshold, then that family and every individual in it is considered in poverty. The official poverty thresholds do not vary geographically, but they are updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index (CPI-U). The official poverty definition uses money income before taxes and does not include capital gains or noncash benefits (such as public housing, Medicaid, and food stamps). … … Money Income: Income Used to Compute Poverty Status The income used to compute poverty status includes (before taxes): Earnings
Unemployment compensation
Workers' compensation
Social Security
Supplemental Security Income
Public assistance
Veterans' payments
Survivor benefits
Pension or retirement income
Interest
Dividends
Rents
Royalties
Income from estates
Trusts
Educational assistance
Alimony
Child support
Assistance from outside the household
Other miscellaneous sources

Money income does not include:
Capital gains or losses
Noncash benefits (e.g. food stamps and housing subsidies)
Tax credits …
/////////////////////////
referring to, https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2019-07/CBO-55410-MinimumWage2019.pdf
Excerpted from page 10: … The definitions of income and of poverty thresholds are those used by the Census Bureau to determine the official poverty rate. CBO projects that in 2025, the poverty threshold (in 2018 dollars) will be $20,480 for a family of three and $26,330 for a family of four.
////////
Respectfully, Supposn

Check this out.....from the bottom of that page.

Changes in real (inflation-adjusted) income reflect changes in before-tax family cash income.

Do you understand what that means?
The only change in income from the $15 minimum wage that they included in Table 1
is the change in before-tax family cash income. Any change in any other income category
is not included in this table.

That means the claim you made that there must be reductions in government benefits and your implication that, " the 5.2% increase of their total incomes would imply a much greater proportional increase of only their wage incomes" was entirely unsupported by your CBO source.

 

[Supposn]

ToddsterPatriot, the Congressional Budget Office used gross income when calculating the ratio of families’ incomes to their family size’s’ poverty thresholds. That’s what I supposed and posted; that’s what the U.S. Census Bureau describes as their method for calculating es those statistics. On this point, the U.S. Census Bureau, the CBO, and I Agree with each other.

This fully supports my statement, “to whatever extent their incomes and benefits were calculated to include items that would not in 2025 be effected, or little affected by the minimum rate, The range of 5.2% to 3.4% understates minimum rate’s affects upon families’ wage rates and wage incomes”.

You, on the other hand doubted my statement and replied, “Changes in real (inflation-adjusted) income reflect changes in before-tax family cash income.

Do you understand what that means? … That means the claim you made that there must be reductions in government benefits and your implication that, " the 5.2% increase of their total incomes would imply a much greater proportional increase of only their wage incomes" was entirely unsupported by your CBO source”.

Reduction of government benefits is one, but not the only possi ble cause of wage incomes evolving to be a greter proportion of families' gross incomes.
Any increase of wages proportion of families’ gross incomes, (particularly if the increases were of primarily low-hourly rate wages), would reduce the proportional contributions of increased minimum wage rates to those families’ non-wage incomes, and would increase those proportional contributions to families’ wage incomes.

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

ToddsterPatriot, the Congressional Budget Office used gross income when calculating the ratio of families’ incomes to their family size’s’ poverty thresholds. That’s what I supposed and posted; that’s what the U.S. Census Bureau describes as their method for calculating es those statistics. On this point, the U.S. Census Bureau, the CBO, and I Agree with each other.

This fully supports my statement, “to whatever extent their incomes and benefits were calculated to include items that would not in 2025 be effected, or little affected by the minimum rate, The range of 5.2% to 3.4% understates minimum rate’s affects upon families’ wage rates and wage incomes”.

You, on the other hand doubted my statement and replied, “Changes in real (inflation-adjusted) income reflect changes in before-tax family cash income.

Do you understand what that means? … That means the claim you made that there must be reductions in government benefits and your implication that, " the 5.2% increase of their total incomes would imply a much greater proportional increase of only their wage incomes" was entirely unsupported by your CBO source”.

Reduction of government benefits is one, but not the only possi ble cause of wage incomes evolving to be a greter proportion of families' gross incomes.
Any increase of wages proportion of families’ gross incomes, (particularly if the increases were of primarily low-hourly rate wages), would reduce the proportional contributions of increased minimum wage rates to those families’ non-wage incomes, and would increase those proportional contributions to families’ wage incomes.

Respectfully, Supposn

the Congressional Budget Office used gross income when calculating the ratio of families’ incomes to their family size’s’ poverty thresholds.

And they only used cash income to calculate the 5.2% increase in your source.

That’s what I supposed and posted; that’s what the U.S. Census Bureau describes as their method for calculating es those statistics.

Yes, I noticed the error you posted.

The range of 5.2% to 3.4% understates minimum rate’s affects upon families’ wage rates and wage incomes”.

Yes, I noticed your more recent unsourced claim.
Maybe you can find another source? Any source?

You, on the other hand doubted my statement

Exactly. Based on your history.

Reduction of government benefits is one, but not the only possi ble cause of wage incomes evolving to be a greter proportion of families' gross incomes.

What do government benefits have to do with the CBO calculation of change in cash income?

 

[Supposn]

ToddsterPatriot. only low-wage rates directly, and low-wage incomes more or less directly benefit from the extents and enforcement of minimum wage rate’s purchasing power.

Over the decades pensions other particular categories of families’ non-wage incomes and/or benefits are increased due to the minimum wage rate. But those increases are dependent upon the proportions of families’ incomes derived from earning within the low-wage bracket of wage rates, and they’re also to some extent dependent upon the duration of times and total values of families earning those low-wage rate incomes. It requires decades before minimum wage rate increases contribute to families’ pensions or long-term disability incomes, and no less than a half year before they can contribute to families’ unemployment insurance incomes.

Although Congressional Budget Office’s projected a range of 5.2% to 3.4% increase of incomes in 2025 for families of incomes less than three times their family sizes’ poverty thresholds. Those increases are increased almost entirely due to those families’ low-wage rate incomes. Minimum wage rate increases would effectively contribute almost nothing to those families’ incomes not derived from their low-wage rate wage incomes.

To the extent of minimum wage rate’s purchasing power and enforcement, it reduces incidences and extents of poverty among the working -poor and their dependents. That's its purpose and justification. Respectfully,Suppson

 

[Supposn]

What do government benefits have to do with the CBO calculation of change in cash income?

ToddsterPatriot, I also question that.
Congressional Budget Office is apparently pretending to be reporting upon increases of the federal minimum wage rate’s affecting low-wage earning families’ purchasing powers.

Can anyone explain how are governments’ and non-governments’ supplemental security incomes, veterans, public assistances, interests, dividends, rents, royalties, estates, trusts, educational assistances, alimony, child support, assistances from outside of the families’ households, and other miscellaneous sources of incomes, or payments, or benefits are essentially or effectively being affected by the federal minimum wage rate?
Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What do government benefits have to do with the CBO calculation of change in cash income?

ToddsterPatriot, I also question that.
Congressional Budget Office is apparently pretending to be reporting upon increases of the federal minimum wage rate’s affecting low-wage earning families’ purchasing powers.

Can anyone explain how are governments’ and non-governments’ supplemental security incomes, veterans, public assistances, interests, dividends, rents, royalties, estates, trusts, educational assistances, alimony, child support, assistances from outside of the families’ households, and other miscellaneous sources of incomes, or payments, or benefits are essentially or effectively being affected by the federal minimum wage rate?
Respectfully, Supposn

Congressional Budget Office is apparently pretending to be reporting upon increases of the federal minimum wage rate’s affecting low-wage earning families’ purchasing powers.


And you're pretending the numbers they report are too low......based on your feelings.