More lefties learn the glory of the 15 dollar minimum wage....unemployment.....

[HereWeGoAgain]

I addressed this already.
You sound like those manual machinist from yesteryear who claimed CNCs would never replace manual machinist.
Yet here we are...most shops now use CNCs almost exclusively and only keep a few Manual machines for fixture making,R&D work and piece orders.
When you can pay a button pusher half of what you pay a skilled machinist....? It's gonna happen.
The burger machine is no different.

Of course it will happen, eventually But your problem is, we aren't talking abut burger flipping wages, we are talking about minimum wage. Of which there will always be people earning that. No matter what job they are doing. If EVERY single person in America had a PhD, you would have PhDs earning minimum wage.

Another problem you have is that you claim that increasing the minimum wage would hasten the advent of these machines, but your very own link proves those machines are coming regardless.

You know what's going to happen is that one of these machines will come out , putting fast food workers out of work, and do you think that the guy who takes care of these machines is going to be paid more? No he isn't , he's going to be the new minimum wage guy while the franchise owners keep the extra savings for themselves. So then you have current minimum wage workers out of work entirely (at least in the burger industry) and a new field that used to be lucrative being the new minimum wage. Because you KNOW these burger factories aren't going to increase their wages on their ow.

I think it's all moot anyway since Wal Mart has of their own initiative announced an increase in their pay scale. That alone will force other businesses to move up their pay.with or without a minimum mandated.

The whole point is min wage workers demanding ridiculous wages will only hasten their own demise.
Government mandating a min wage is no different than the gov demanding a company hire x amount of workers.
The only difference being the general publics ability to swallow the gov forcing choices on private business.
The gov cant force you to hire,just as they cant force you not to automate.
Business will always find a way to bypass chicken shit gov regulations.

So you favor NO mandated minimum wage?

Yes, we see how that worked out don't we? You're discounted as an idiotic hack and I'm moving on. Good day.

I didnt say that. I dont condone the gov mandating wages that jeopardize business because all thats going to do is force business to make a choice between closing the doors,automating or firing part of their work force.
All of which will hurt min wage workers and the economy.
I dont have a problem with a slightly higher min wage,say a buck a year for a couple of years. Anything more will force business to think of other options.

So we've agreed. I am against $15 a hour as well, its' too much. I do however think that $10 an hour should be applied the same way you would remove a bandaid, one quick pull. Yes it will hurt for a bit, but then the pain is over.

You forgetting the people who already make ten bucks an hour. They're gonna be pissed and demand a raise as well.
Spreading it out over a couple of years would help alleviate their sense of getting screwed and hopefully stop that domino effect of the next guy up demanding a raise as well.
It's another one of those "unintended consequences" you have to beware of.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Of course it will happen, eventually But your problem is, we aren't talking abut burger flipping wages, we are talking about minimum wage. Of which there will always be people earning that. No matter what job they are doing. If EVERY single person in America had a PhD, you would have PhDs earning minimum wage.

Another problem you have is that you claim that increasing the minimum wage would hasten the advent of these machines, but your very own link proves those machines are coming regardless.

You know what's going to happen is that one of these machines will come out , putting fast food workers out of work, and do you think that the guy who takes care of these machines is going to be paid more? No he isn't , he's going to be the new minimum wage guy while the franchise owners keep the extra savings for themselves. So then you have current minimum wage workers out of work entirely (at least in the burger industry) and a new field that used to be lucrative being the new minimum wage. Because you KNOW these burger factories aren't going to increase their wages on their ow.

I think it's all moot anyway since Wal Mart has of their own initiative announced an increase in their pay scale. That alone will force other businesses to move up their pay.with or without a minimum mandated.

The whole point is min wage workers demanding ridiculous wages will only hasten their own demise.
Government mandating a min wage is no different than the gov demanding a company hire x amount of workers.
The only difference being the general publics ability to swallow the gov forcing choices on private business.
The gov cant force you to hire,just as they cant force you not to automate.
Business will always find a way to bypass chicken shit gov regulations.

So you favor NO mandated minimum wage?

Yes, we see how that worked out don't we? You're discounted as an idiotic hack and I'm moving on. Good day.

I didnt say that. I dont condone the gov mandating wages that jeopardize business because all thats going to do is force business to make a choice between closing the doors,automating or firing part of their work force.
All of which will hurt min wage workers and the economy.
I dont have a problem with a slightly higher min wage,say a buck a year for a couple of years. Anything more will force business to think of other options.

So we've agreed. I am against $15 a hour as well, its' too much. I do however think that $10 an hour should be applied the same way you would remove a bandaid, one quick pull. Yes it will hurt for a bit, but then the pain is over.

You forgetting the people who already make ten bucks an hour. They're gonna be pissed and demand a raise as well.
Spreading it out over a couple of years would help alleviate their sense of getting screwed and hopefully stop that domino effect of the next guy up demanding a raise as well.
It's another one of those "unintended consequences" you have to beware of.

I'm not forgetting about them, I just frankly don't care about them. The minimum wage law is intended to keep people off welfare rolls, not to make things fair. That is ALL I care about, is using existing law to get people off of welfare rolls.

This is why I don't support things such as capping a CEOs wages, or something like that. Yes, I think someone making $20M a year is obscene, BUT you can't logically claim that capping those wages would affect welfare at all, so the government has no business doing so IMHO.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

The whole point is min wage workers demanding ridiculous wages will only hasten their own demise.
Government mandating a min wage is no different than the gov demanding a company hire x amount of workers.
The only difference being the general publics ability to swallow the gov forcing choices on private business.
The gov cant force you to hire,just as they cant force you not to automate.
Business will always find a way to bypass chicken shit gov regulations.

The gov cant force you to hire,just as they cant force you not to automate.

those are items on their list...........

Nothing would surprise me...
I wish they force welfare recipients to pick up trash on the freeway. It only seems fair.

For your information, 60% of low income families have at least one adult working in a full time job. One of the biggest misconception about social welfare is the recipients don't work. The fact is they do work. They just don't make enough money to support their family.

Then I suggest they apply themselves.
You have to stop thinking a burger flipping job is intended as a career that you can raise a family on,thats just ridiculous.

Once again though, you can't just say X or Y.

Yes, those who work fast foods are generally there for a reason, but on the other hand, if every adult in American had a PhD , we would have PhDs working fast food. There are only so many good jobs to go around.

The ONLY viable solution would be to end all work visas and repatriate those who are here as worker guests, that would open up many jobs.

I'm not opposed to that solution.

Personally I think thats the best solution.
When you have twenty people applying at MickyDs to work the drive through of course wages will be driven down.
And if you raise the wages artificially it'll only make the jobless problem worse.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

The whole point is min wage workers demanding ridiculous wages will only hasten their own demise.
Government mandating a min wage is no different than the gov demanding a company hire x amount of workers.
The only difference being the general publics ability to swallow the gov forcing choices on private business.
The gov cant force you to hire,just as they cant force you not to automate.
Business will always find a way to bypass chicken shit gov regulations.

So you favor NO mandated minimum wage?

Yes, we see how that worked out don't we? You're discounted as an idiotic hack and I'm moving on. Good day.

I didnt say that. I dont condone the gov mandating wages that jeopardize business because all thats going to do is force business to make a choice between closing the doors,automating or firing part of their work force.
All of which will hurt min wage workers and the economy.
I dont have a problem with a slightly higher min wage,say a buck a year for a couple of years. Anything more will force business to think of other options.

So we've agreed. I am against $15 a hour as well, its' too much. I do however think that $10 an hour should be applied the same way you would remove a bandaid, one quick pull. Yes it will hurt for a bit, but then the pain is over.

You forgetting the people who already make ten bucks an hour. They're gonna be pissed and demand a raise as well.
Spreading it out over a couple of years would help alleviate their sense of getting screwed and hopefully stop that domino effect of the next guy up demanding a raise as well.
It's another one of those "unintended consequences" you have to beware of.

I'm not forgetting about them, I just frankly don't care about them. The minimum wage law is intended to keep people off welfare rolls, not to make things fair. That is ALL I care about, is using existing law to get people off of welfare rolls.

This is why I don't support things such as capping a CEOs wages, or something like that. Yes, I think someone making $20M a year is obscene, BUT you can't logically claim that capping those wages would affect welfare at all, so the government has no business doing so IMHO.

I worked for a very short period at min wage yet I was able to survive without gov assistance. It wasnt fun,but it sure as hell was a great motivator. I dont want to see that motivation removed from the equation or you'll have a glut of min wage workers vying for the same jobs.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

$10 an hour is an appropriate minimum wage. In fact $10 an hour would correct the minimum wage to 1968 levels.

I'm sure minimum-wagers would duly appreciate it for the approximately 26 months they remained employed before their job was usurped by the burger-o-matic 5000.

See, here is what you are apparently too stupid to understand.

We will ALWAYS have both minimum wage jobs, and minimum wage employees.

Let's say that McDonalds , for example, bought the burger-o-matic 500 and put it in all their stores. They would still need a minimal number of employees to run the thing. Those employees would still be entry level employees earning at or near the min wage. And the people who USED to work at McDonalds? They would still have to be employed somewhere at or near minimum wage.

The jobs will simply shift. When the automobile was invented did the people who ran livery stables and such suddenly no longer work? Of course not, they instead moved to another industry earning at or near the same wages.

Where exactly are these ex-employees going to work? You're assuming the system magically adapts to find them jobs, but based on what? Hiring these people isn't a cost-effective decision for any employer. Their skills have been rendered obsolete by mechanization.

That's the problem here: the fundamental obsolescence of a burgeoning underclass in a system that is thoroughly capitalist in nature, despising inefficiency. These people have become inefficient. They've become a liability in such a system. Raising the minimum wage makes them a greater liability.

I don't think you appreciate the true scope of the problem. It goes far beyond just minimum wage. And you can spare me the usual platitudes about "people will work to fix the machines" (maintenance jobs might replace one in ten of the jobs displaced by automation, if we're lucky), and "people will adapt" (we're in unprecedented territory for several reasons, not the least of which is the extreme scale of the problem, and "people will adapt" is a blind cop-out.)

They will find a job somewhere. When buggies stopped being sold, did buggy makers just go die because they were out of work, or did they adapt and find a new skill set?

True, most of the people who are earning minimum wage are lazy worthless pieces of shit who would rather not be working at all, and they are fine with that, because our system encourages it . Do very little work, for very little pay, and let the taxpayers pick up the difference.

I say fuck that. I say set the minimum wage @ $10 and tighten up welfare and if you are able bodies and no one wants to hire you because you cant or won't make yourself worth $10, too bad for you, go hungry.

I think hardest work I ever did in my life was wheelbarrowing concrete in a hundred degree temperatures at a minimum wage of $1/hr. When you say people earning minimum wage are worthless pieces of shit, you're talking about nearly half the workforce because that's where they started their career.

So how much training did that require?
And claiming that it is "half the work force" is disingenuous at best.
Try around 3% of the work force.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

So you favor NO mandated minimum wage?

Yes, we see how that worked out don't we? You're discounted as an idiotic hack and I'm moving on. Good day.

I didnt say that. I dont condone the gov mandating wages that jeopardize business because all thats going to do is force business to make a choice between closing the doors,automating or firing part of their work force.
All of which will hurt min wage workers and the economy.
I dont have a problem with a slightly higher min wage,say a buck a year for a couple of years. Anything more will force business to think of other options.

So we've agreed. I am against $15 a hour as well, its' too much. I do however think that $10 an hour should be applied the same way you would remove a bandaid, one quick pull. Yes it will hurt for a bit, but then the pain is over.

You forgetting the people who already make ten bucks an hour. They're gonna be pissed and demand a raise as well.
Spreading it out over a couple of years would help alleviate their sense of getting screwed and hopefully stop that domino effect of the next guy up demanding a raise as well.
It's another one of those "unintended consequences" you have to beware of.

I'm not forgetting about them, I just frankly don't care about them. The minimum wage law is intended to keep people off welfare rolls, not to make things fair. That is ALL I care about, is using existing law to get people off of welfare rolls.

This is why I don't support things such as capping a CEOs wages, or something like that. Yes, I think someone making $20M a year is obscene, BUT you can't logically claim that capping those wages would affect welfare at all, so the government has no business doing so IMHO.

I worked for a very short period at min wage yet I was able to survive without gov assistance. It wasnt fun,but it sure as hell was a great motivator. I dont want to see that motivation removed from the equation or you'll have a glut of min wage workers vying for the same jobs.

Unfortunately we are already at that point. We lack jobs. I mean just small example is compare the US auto industry in the 60s to today. Now, mostly that is of their own doing, that's not what I'm arguing . I'm just saying that regardless of reason, we do NOT have the jobs we had in the 60s.

Perhaps it is time to have the government be a little more protective of our markets. Repatriate guest workers, tarrif foreign goods, etc etc.

Myself, I think that any product sold in the US should have produced under the same standards as it would if it were built in the US. Apple farming out IPhone production to China slaves should be illegal. US law should require that they either A) pay the same wages as they would in the US B) pay equivalent fines which would go towards welfare C) don't sell their phones in the US, just as one example.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Where is the clean the restaraunt o matic? Oh they don't have one?

You are being stupid here. There will still have to be a certain number of low paid employees , even if the cooking and serving were totally automated. You can't just turn on a burger machine and let it run all day long without cleaning and such. What about unloading trucks? Who cleans the bathrooms? Etc etc etc.

No,no...you're the idiot here.
Nowhere did I say the burger joint can be totally automated.

And likewise nowhere did anyone say that some jobs wouldn't be lost with a $10 min wage. But it would be very few.

Let's assume a burger o matic cost $200K just for the machine. Again let's assume that raising the minimum wage results in on average $1.50 per hour in raises per employee. , that $200,000 will pay for 1.3M hours. That means it would take TEN years just to break even on that machine, not counting upkeep, repairs, or replacements.

Do you really think that the guy who owns the local McD franchise is going to say "okay dammit, MW went up to $10 an hour, I'm going to invest 10 years in wage increases to buy the machine, so I can fire these employees who dare to ask for a decent wage?"

Knowing you worked as an MP i'll forgive your ignorance of automated machinery.
Hamburger-making machine churns out custom burgers at industrial speeds
I promise you this thing wont go for near that much.
In fact this one will pay for itself in a year.
A CNC machining center is vastly more complicated and doesnt cost that much.
And as the tech becomes more common place the price will drop.

Still under development and the company which builds it claims it can pay for itself inside a year. Which of course means nothing. What would you expect them to say "oh it will take 10 years to recoup your investment, buy our machine anyway"

I think the problem with a burger machine is fast food restaurants are constantly changing their menu and adding new burgers, the bacon cheese burger, the barbecue burger, the double, the triple burger, the onion burger, the bacon burger, the veggie burger, and of course the burger without onions, the burger with only pickles, and mayo, the well done burger, the rare burger,etc.... Also, fast food restaurants general serve a variety of foods other than burgers which requires cooks.

As I recall, Burger King has been using a machine that cooks the burgers for many years. The kitchen staff feeds the machine with patties and adds the veggies and condiments to the burgers.

Have you ever seen a CNC machining center in action?
Making burgers with multiple options would be childs play.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

No,no...you're the idiot here.
Nowhere did I say the burger joint can be totally automated.

And likewise nowhere did anyone say that some jobs wouldn't be lost with a $10 min wage. But it would be very few.

Let's assume a burger o matic cost $200K just for the machine. Again let's assume that raising the minimum wage results in on average $1.50 per hour in raises per employee. , that $200,000 will pay for 1.3M hours. That means it would take TEN years just to break even on that machine, not counting upkeep, repairs, or replacements.

Do you really think that the guy who owns the local McD franchise is going to say "okay dammit, MW went up to $10 an hour, I'm going to invest 10 years in wage increases to buy the machine, so I can fire these employees who dare to ask for a decent wage?"

Knowing you worked as an MP i'll forgive your ignorance of automated machinery.
Hamburger-making machine churns out custom burgers at industrial speeds
I promise you this thing wont go for near that much.
In fact this one will pay for itself in a year.
A CNC machining center is vastly more complicated and doesnt cost that much.
And as the tech becomes more common place the price will drop.

Still under development and the company which builds it claims it can pay for itself inside a year. Which of course means nothing. What would you expect them to say "oh it will take 10 years to recoup your investment, buy our machine anyway"

I think the problem with a burger machine is fast food restaurants are constantly changing their menu, the cheese burger, the barbecue burger, the double, the triple burger, the onion burger, the bacon burger, the veggie burger, and of course the burger without onions, the burger with only pickles, and mayo, the well done burger, the rare burger,etc.... Also, fast food restaurants general serve a variety of food of other than burgers which requires cooks.

Do these better jobs exist? We have lost manufacturing jobs and replaced with fast food.

Lost some of them due to over taxation and regulations.
The rest of them moved south.
I could walk out of my house in the morning and have a job by noon.
The north has pretty much screwed themselves.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I didnt say that. I dont condone the gov mandating wages that jeopardize business because all thats going to do is force business to make a choice between closing the doors,automating or firing part of their work force.
All of which will hurt min wage workers and the economy.
I dont have a problem with a slightly higher min wage,say a buck a year for a couple of years. Anything more will force business to think of other options.

So we've agreed. I am against $15 a hour as well, its' too much. I do however think that $10 an hour should be applied the same way you would remove a bandaid, one quick pull. Yes it will hurt for a bit, but then the pain is over.

You forgetting the people who already make ten bucks an hour. They're gonna be pissed and demand a raise as well.
Spreading it out over a couple of years would help alleviate their sense of getting screwed and hopefully stop that domino effect of the next guy up demanding a raise as well.
It's another one of those "unintended consequences" you have to beware of.

I'm not forgetting about them, I just frankly don't care about them. The minimum wage law is intended to keep people off welfare rolls, not to make things fair. That is ALL I care about, is using existing law to get people off of welfare rolls.

This is why I don't support things such as capping a CEOs wages, or something like that. Yes, I think someone making $20M a year is obscene, BUT you can't logically claim that capping those wages would affect welfare at all, so the government has no business doing so IMHO.

I worked for a very short period at min wage yet I was able to survive without gov assistance. It wasnt fun,but it sure as hell was a great motivator. I dont want to see that motivation removed from the equation or you'll have a glut of min wage workers vying for the same jobs.

Unfortunately we are already at that point. We lack jobs. I mean just small example is compare the US auto industry in the 60s to today. Now, mostly that is of their own doing, that's not what I'm arguing . I'm just saying that regardless of reason, we do NOT have the jobs we had in the 60s.

Perhaps it is time to have the government be a little more protective of our markets. Repatriate guest workers, tarrif foreign goods, etc etc.

Myself, I think that any product sold in the US should have produced under the same standards as it would if it were built in the US. Apple farming out IPhone production to China slaves should be illegal. US law should require that they either A) pay the same wages as they would in the US B) pay equivalent fines which would go towards welfare C) don't sell their phones in the US, just as one example.

While I can agree with some of this,I dont see where punishing Apple like that is going to help,they'll just pass the expense on to the consumer just like all business does with higher operating costs.
Everyone wants us to buy American but nobody want to pay 5'000 bucks for a new phone.
No doubt the jobs situation is incredibly complex and finding a fix that pleases everyone is going to be almost impossible.
I believe the gov on both sides of the aisle is the biggest part of the problem.
You cant flood the country with cheap immigrant labor and expect there to be good paying jobs,it's just not going to happen.
The problem as I see it is liberals who encourage this flood of immigrants for votes to their own detriment.
Which of course is why I find it hard to feel sorry for them.
If all Americans were to call for a stop to it they would have no choice but to listen.

 

[Brain357]

So we've agreed. I am against $15 a hour as well, its' too much. I do however think that $10 an hour should be applied the same way you would remove a bandaid, one quick pull. Yes it will hurt for a bit, but then the pain is over.

You forgetting the people who already make ten bucks an hour. They're gonna be pissed and demand a raise as well.
Spreading it out over a couple of years would help alleviate their sense of getting screwed and hopefully stop that domino effect of the next guy up demanding a raise as well.
It's another one of those "unintended consequences" you have to beware of.

I'm not forgetting about them, I just frankly don't care about them. The minimum wage law is intended to keep people off welfare rolls, not to make things fair. That is ALL I care about, is using existing law to get people off of welfare rolls.

This is why I don't support things such as capping a CEOs wages, or something like that. Yes, I think someone making $20M a year is obscene, BUT you can't logically claim that capping those wages would affect welfare at all, so the government has no business doing so IMHO.

I worked for a very short period at min wage yet I was able to survive without gov assistance. It wasnt fun,but it sure as hell was a great motivator. I dont want to see that motivation removed from the equation or you'll have a glut of min wage workers vying for the same jobs.

Unfortunately we are already at that point. We lack jobs. I mean just small example is compare the US auto industry in the 60s to today. Now, mostly that is of their own doing, that's not what I'm arguing . I'm just saying that regardless of reason, we do NOT have the jobs we had in the 60s.

Perhaps it is time to have the government be a little more protective of our markets. Repatriate guest workers, tarrif foreign goods, etc etc.

Myself, I think that any product sold in the US should have produced under the same standards as it would if it were built in the US. Apple farming out IPhone production to China slaves should be illegal. US law should require that they either A) pay the same wages as they would in the US B) pay equivalent fines which would go towards welfare C) don't sell their phones in the US, just as one example.

While I can agree with some of this,I dont see where punishing Apple like that is going to help,they'll just pass the expense on to the consumer just like all business does with higher operating costs.
Everyone wants us to buy American but nobody want to pay 5'000 bucks for a new phone.
No doubt the jobs situation is incredibly complex and finding a fix that pleases everyone is going to be almost impossible.
I believe the gov on both sides of the aisle is the biggest part of the problem.
You cant flood the country with cheap immigrant labor and expect there to be good paying jobs,it's just not going to happen.
The problem as I see it is liberals who encourage this flood of immigrants for votes to their own detriment.
Which of course is why I find it hard to feel sorry for them.
If all Americans were to call for a stop to it they would have no choice but to listen.

Democrats aren't doing the poor any favors by letting lots of cheap labor in that's for sure. I don't really think repubs are as against it as they claim though.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

You forgetting the people who already make ten bucks an hour. They're gonna be pissed and demand a raise as well.
Spreading it out over a couple of years would help alleviate their sense of getting screwed and hopefully stop that domino effect of the next guy up demanding a raise as well.
It's another one of those "unintended consequences" you have to beware of.

I'm not forgetting about them, I just frankly don't care about them. The minimum wage law is intended to keep people off welfare rolls, not to make things fair. That is ALL I care about, is using existing law to get people off of welfare rolls.

This is why I don't support things such as capping a CEOs wages, or something like that. Yes, I think someone making $20M a year is obscene, BUT you can't logically claim that capping those wages would affect welfare at all, so the government has no business doing so IMHO.

I worked for a very short period at min wage yet I was able to survive without gov assistance. It wasnt fun,but it sure as hell was a great motivator. I dont want to see that motivation removed from the equation or you'll have a glut of min wage workers vying for the same jobs.

Unfortunately we are already at that point. We lack jobs. I mean just small example is compare the US auto industry in the 60s to today. Now, mostly that is of their own doing, that's not what I'm arguing . I'm just saying that regardless of reason, we do NOT have the jobs we had in the 60s.

Perhaps it is time to have the government be a little more protective of our markets. Repatriate guest workers, tarrif foreign goods, etc etc.

Myself, I think that any product sold in the US should have produced under the same standards as it would if it were built in the US. Apple farming out IPhone production to China slaves should be illegal. US law should require that they either A) pay the same wages as they would in the US B) pay equivalent fines which would go towards welfare C) don't sell their phones in the US, just as one example.

While I can agree with some of this,I dont see where punishing Apple like that is going to help,they'll just pass the expense on to the consumer just like all business does with higher operating costs.
Everyone wants us to buy American but nobody want to pay 5'000 bucks for a new phone.
No doubt the jobs situation is incredibly complex and finding a fix that pleases everyone is going to be almost impossible.
I believe the gov on both sides of the aisle is the biggest part of the problem.
You cant flood the country with cheap immigrant labor and expect there to be good paying jobs,it's just not going to happen.
The problem as I see it is liberals who encourage this flood of immigrants for votes to their own detriment.
Which of course is why I find it hard to feel sorry for them.
If all Americans were to call for a stop to it they would have no choice but to listen.

Democrats aren't doing the poor any favors by letting lots of cheap labor in that's for sure. I don't really think repubs are as against it as they claim though.

Of course they aren't. BOTH parties love the cheap labor. Don't let either side fool you. There are just as many big business liberals as there are conservatives. Hell, Apple is a VERY liberal company.

The problem is that NO ONE with any political power gives one rat's ass about the middle class american. Democrat or Republican. Anyone who believes otherwise is a damned fool.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

You forgetting the people who already make ten bucks an hour. They're gonna be pissed and demand a raise as well.
Spreading it out over a couple of years would help alleviate their sense of getting screwed and hopefully stop that domino effect of the next guy up demanding a raise as well.
It's another one of those "unintended consequences" you have to beware of.

I'm not forgetting about them, I just frankly don't care about them. The minimum wage law is intended to keep people off welfare rolls, not to make things fair. That is ALL I care about, is using existing law to get people off of welfare rolls.

This is why I don't support things such as capping a CEOs wages, or something like that. Yes, I think someone making $20M a year is obscene, BUT you can't logically claim that capping those wages would affect welfare at all, so the government has no business doing so IMHO.

I worked for a very short period at min wage yet I was able to survive without gov assistance. It wasnt fun,but it sure as hell was a great motivator. I dont want to see that motivation removed from the equation or you'll have a glut of min wage workers vying for the same jobs.

Unfortunately we are already at that point. We lack jobs. I mean just small example is compare the US auto industry in the 60s to today. Now, mostly that is of their own doing, that's not what I'm arguing . I'm just saying that regardless of reason, we do NOT have the jobs we had in the 60s.

Perhaps it is time to have the government be a little more protective of our markets. Repatriate guest workers, tarrif foreign goods, etc etc.

Myself, I think that any product sold in the US should have produced under the same standards as it would if it were built in the US. Apple farming out IPhone production to China slaves should be illegal. US law should require that they either A) pay the same wages as they would in the US B) pay equivalent fines which would go towards welfare C) don't sell their phones in the US, just as one example.

While I can agree with some of this,I dont see where punishing Apple like that is going to help,they'll just pass the expense on to the consumer just like all business does with higher operating costs.
Everyone wants us to buy American but nobody want to pay 5'000 bucks for a new phone.
No doubt the jobs situation is incredibly complex and finding a fix that pleases everyone is going to be almost impossible.
I believe the gov on both sides of the aisle is the biggest part of the problem.
You cant flood the country with cheap immigrant labor and expect there to be good paying jobs,it's just not going to happen.
The problem as I see it is liberals who encourage this flood of immigrants for votes to their own detriment.
Which of course is why I find it hard to feel sorry for them.
If all Americans were to call for a stop to it they would have no choice but to listen.

Democrats aren't doing the poor any favors by letting lots of cheap labor in that's for sure. I don't really think repubs are as against it as they claim though.

Every citizen Republican is. It's our elected officials that are the problem on our side.
At this point the only people speaking out against it are Republican citizens...and thats it.
If dem citizens would join in the outrage we'd stand a chance at stopping it,as it is it's three against one.
Personally the plight of the min wage worker brought on by the glut of immigrant labor doesnt effect me in the least,in fact it benefits me in cheaper products and labor.
I just dont like to see my countrymen and my country getting screwed over.

 

[Ernie S.]

I'm less worried about economy wide inflation than I am in reduced employment of low skilled workers.
If you increase wages beyond what the worker can produce, increased sales won't matter. You'll just incentivize automation.

Doesn't technology allow the employee to produce more? Or are you still promoting the hamburger flipping robot that won't work?

Doesn't technology allow the employee to produce more?

You bet! Technology could allow one employee to do the work of three.
The other two are deeply saddened.

AND, while more product is produced by a smaller labor force, individual employees are no more productive. The increase in productivity is a result of technology developed by the company. It is the corporate investment that has increased productivity, not so much labor.

Untrue of course.

The technology has allowed the employee to be more productive. Without the technology the employee is less productive, but without the employee, the technology is useless.

Sure you need employees to operate the technology, but in many cases, they need not be so highly skilled. They don't sweat any harder nor go home any more tired.
In short, they have done nothing to make themselves more valuable. The corporation has invested corporate dollars to increase productivity.

 

[Ernie S.]

Much ado about nothing....
This is largely a political argument for votes....

A small increase in the minimum wage for the 2.5 % of workers that earn that wont have any significant impact....

Above 10.00 businesses will find ways to trim costs......

One way would be to trim employment for those overpaid at the current min wage..... Simple really

Correct on your last point especially

I own a restaurant. We pay a minimum of $10 hour. You won't find your usual McDonalds fare working at my place. We simply won't hire people who we feel won't return $10 an hour worth the labor on a consistent basis.

IOW , one of my employees does what 2 or 3 of McDonalds employees does per hour.

The idea of "well that's all those people are worth " would be okay IF there weren't also people who WERE worth $10 an hour making $8 an hour or whatever.

Places like McDonalds, they are fine with hiring lousy employees at lousy wages and letting the government pick up the tab with welfare to supplement their wages. Their customers likewise are fine with lousy service to go along with lousy food as long as the prices remain relatively cheap. The average McMoron is also happy with lower wages as long as he gets his welfare to help supplement the low wages

The only people who are not fine with the arrangement are the taxpayers who foot the bill.

@$10/hr a single person working 30 hours a week is no longer eligible for welfare. That's the only point I care about.

What you're not taking into account is what will happen to those currently on welfare and working. Do you for a minute REALLY think they and the welfare infrastructure are going to allow them to fall off welfare because they got a small raise? Not a chance. What will happen is this. MW goes up, those who WERE receiving welfare will assume they get both the raise AND what they've always gotten from the government. Welfare stops, they're right back to where they were before (or worse off) and they get pissed. The rallying cry will be that it's just not fair to kick MW earners off welfare, and so the eligibility changes and now the customer pays more for goods and services AND still pays the welfare tab.

They will simply redefine poverty. Must keep the 47% loyal to the cause.

 

[Ernie S.]

The cost seems to be missing from the link. Also I don't see it working the register and serving customers.

The machine has an upfront cost and an operating cost. That cost will come down. It always does. Employees have an operating cost that continually rises. At some point, those costs will converge and the machine's TCO will be lower than the cost of human employees. That eliminates cooks in the back flipping burgers. Now, have you noticed that you don't have to go through a checkout line at the supermarket any more? You can scan your own goods and pay for them at a kiosk. There are restaurants where you can place your order from a screen at your table if you want. That technology will replace people working the register, it;s just a matter of adjusting the mindset of the customer. What's left? Taking the burger from the machine to the counter? You've now replaced 15 MW workers with maybe 3, and a handful of machines. It's all pure economics.

So what?

That point is coming sooner or later anyway. That has NOTHING to do with determining whether the minimum wage should be raised or not.

"No, we're not going to raise the minimum wage, it's for your own good minimum wage workers" LOL

We'll eventually can them all anyway, so let it be in a blaze of $10.00/hr. glory sooner than $7.50/hr. later.

I can appreciate people who choose the car crash over the cancer.

$10 an hour is an appropriate minimum wage. In fact $10 an hour would correct the minimum wage to 1968 levels.

It shouldn't be a national wage. $10/hr gets you a whole lot more in Mississippi than it does in California.

No one's ass is nailed to the Golden Gate Bridge....

 

[Spare_change]

Anybody generally supportive of an inflation-indexed minimum wage adjusted every 5 years? I'm seeing a lot of "hike it into the stratosphere" and a lot of "keep it where it is" from sampling posts, not a lot of middle ground.

There of 10 states,AZ, CO, FL, MO, MT, NJ, NV, OH, OR, and WA that index minimum wage to inflation. Senate Democrats are proposing this.

That's simply pandering - paying lip service without fixing the problem.

That would depend on what you mean by fixing the problem.

History has shown that tying wage increases to inflation has been ineffective, and actually contributes to the problem, rather than fixing it. Congressmen proposing to do that are merely pretending to care about fixing the problem.

Define "ineffective".

One would expect no improvement in the standard of living of minimum wagers by tying increases to inflation. Is that what you mean by "contributes to the problem"?

I think that at this juncture, people who genuinely care about minimum-wagers should be exceptionally careful not to push too hard. A few dollars an hour is the only thing making a flesh-and-blood human worker preferable to a machine in a great many service industries, and the machines aren't getting any slower or more expensive.

"One would expect no improvement in the standard of living of minimum wagers by tying increases to inflation. Is that what you mean by "contributes to the problem"?"

Exactly so, and, it even exacerbates the problem. Since we know that the 'cost of living increases' do not keep up with the actual cost of living, raising wages (and thus, the concordant rise in cost of living) actually negatively impacts the lower level earners more than others. As usual, 'feel good' government policies harm the very people they purport to help.

As for automation - you can count on it. Low end jobs will disappear in an ever-increasing spiral. $15/hour people who bitch and moan, go on strike, show up late for work or not all, get sick, or take vacations, are a significantly greater cost (and pain in the ass) than turning on the burger flipper machine every morning. Not only do I eliminate the low end worker, I can also cut back on my mid-level managers, as well.

 

[Flopper]

Of course it will happen, eventually But your problem is, we aren't talking abut burger flipping wages, we are talking about minimum wage. Of which there will always be people earning that. No matter what job they are doing. If EVERY single person in America had a PhD, you would have PhDs earning minimum wage.

Another problem you have is that you claim that increasing the minimum wage would hasten the advent of these machines, but your very own link proves those machines are coming regardless.

You know what's going to happen is that one of these machines will come out , putting fast food workers out of work, and do you think that the guy who takes care of these machines is going to be paid more? No he isn't , he's going to be the new minimum wage guy while the franchise owners keep the extra savings for themselves. So then you have current minimum wage workers out of work entirely (at least in the burger industry) and a new field that used to be lucrative being the new minimum wage. Because you KNOW these burger factories aren't going to increase their wages on their ow.

I think it's all moot anyway since Wal Mart has of their own initiative announced an increase in their pay scale. That alone will force other businesses to move up their pay.with or without a minimum mandated.

The whole point is min wage workers demanding ridiculous wages will only hasten their own demise.
Government mandating a min wage is no different than the gov demanding a company hire x amount of workers.
The only difference being the general publics ability to swallow the gov forcing choices on private business.
The gov cant force you to hire,just as they cant force you not to automate.
Business will always find a way to bypass chicken shit gov regulations.

The gov cant force you to hire,just as they cant force you not to automate.

those are items on their list...........

Nothing would surprise me...
I wish they force welfare recipients to pick up trash on the freeway. It only seems fair.

For your information, 60% of low income families have at least one adult working in a full time job. One of the biggest misconception about social welfare is the recipients don't work. The fact is they do work. They just don't make enough money to support their family.

Of course the flip side of that is, Don't start a family if you can't afford to support that family on your own. I think it is completely unfair ad irresponsible for someone who does not have the means to support a family to say they have a right to have a family and then expect the taxpayers to support that family.

At $10/Hr with TWO full time workers you would have a hard time raising two kids on your own with no help. Let alone 1 parent.

I think irresponsibility is a huge oversimplification. They have been making bad choices throughout their lives in not taking school seriously, in the use of drugs and alcohol, in dropping out of school, and in the selection of a mate. Do you really think these kids, and most of them are kids, would plan a pregnancy and consider their future earning capacity? That is just not part of their of their world.
.

 

[Spare_change]

When the cost of labor goes higher than a job is worth, the job is usually replaced by automation. Teenagers used to be able to pump gas and get some experience. Now we pump our own gas. Now they flip burgers, tomorrow an automated oven will do the whole process more consistently and cheaper. Away go the jobs.

How much is a job worth that makes all the money for an business owner?

If a machine can grind meat, shape burger patties, cook and assemble burgers for $10/hr, that's the price point beyond which humans will be replaced. If automated gas pumps can allow customers to pump their own gas for $2/hr, that's the price beyond which humans will be replaced. See, the way you approach this is all wrong. A typical business owner looks at it this way. I have a product that I sell. That product costs me X dollars in raw materials. Then I have to add in Y dollars to assemble the product and Z dollars to transport and sell it. Then I have to add enough to cover the taxes I will be charged by the government (this is why corporate taxation is so stupid. The customer pays them). Finally, after all that, I add in 3% as my profit margin. And, most of the time, labor is the biggest expense a company has. So, when it's all said and done, a job that "makes all the money for an business owner" simply doesn't exist.

Show me any machine capable of replacing fast food workers.

We know you can already replace the front-end worker with a properly formatted tablet. A burger-assembly machine isn't far behind. Just drive up the cost of labor so it's more cost effective for me to build the machine.

 

[Spare_change]

Most minimum wage jobs are easy to learn but they cannot be automated or shipped overseas. When the minimum wage goes up those who hire minimum wage workers have no choice but to pay the increase.

Arguments against raising the minimum wage never change, but they have never been verified. There is no relationship between raising the minimum wage and increases in unemployment.

What minimum wage jobs can't be automated, or even better, outsourced entirely?

Those jobs requiring direct customer interface (damn few), and those positions that can be filled by humans cheaper than I can build a machine to do it (even fewer).

If they keep pushing, the jobs will disappear --- it is no more complex than that.

 

[Spare_change]

The whole point is min wage workers demanding ridiculous wages will only hasten their own demise.
Government mandating a min wage is no different than the gov demanding a company hire x amount of workers.
The only difference being the general publics ability to swallow the gov forcing choices on private business.
The gov cant force you to hire,just as they cant force you not to automate.
Business will always find a way to bypass chicken shit gov regulations.

The gov cant force you to hire,just as they cant force you not to automate.

those are items on their list...........

Nothing would surprise me...
I wish they force welfare recipients to pick up trash on the freeway. It only seems fair.

For your information, 60% of low income families have at least one adult working in a full time job. One of the biggest misconception about social welfare is the recipients don't work. The fact is they do work. They just don't make enough money to support their family.

Of course the flip side of that is, Don't start a family if you can't afford to support that family on your own. I think it is completely unfair ad irresponsible for someone who does not have the means to support a family to say they have a right to have a family and then expect the taxpayers to support that family.

At $10/Hr with TWO full time workers you would have a hard time raising two kids on your own with no help. Let alone 1 parent.

I think irresponsibility is a huge oversimplification. They have been making bad choices throughout their lives in not taking school seriously, in the use of drugs and alcohol, in dropping out of school, and in the selection of a mate. Do you really think these kids, and most of them are kids, would plan a pregnancy and consider their future earning capacity? That is just not part of their of their world.
.

Then, like everything else in life, you need to experience the ramifications of your decisions. Do I have any sympathy? Not one little bit. Am I furious at their parents who didn't raise intelligent, responsible adults? You damn right.