CDZ Mueller investigation. How will it pan out ?

[Tommy Tainant]

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

Things have changed a bit since you wrote this haven't they.

Iv

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

Things have changed a bit since you wrote this haven't they.

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

Things have changed a bit since you wrote this haven't they.

Well it has been a week.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

Scenario one: I'm not sure anything would happen. At the moment the Republican party is joined a the hip. No Republican politician can win a primary without attaching himself to Trump. This would mean that voting for impeachment regardless of evidence is political suicide.
Scenario two: Pretty unlikely. What is available in the public realm is more then enough to conclude that Trump will never be completely vindicated. Even if it's shown that Trump didn't coordinate with Russia directly. We know the people in his campaign tried on his behalf and we know that Trump was/is actively trying to hamper the investigation. Something that could very well be construed as being a crime in itself.
Not to mention this new charge of campaign finance violations.
As to what would happen, well if I'm not convinced him being guilty would prompt the Republican party then him being as clean as this wouldn't either.
Scenario three: I don't think stupidity is a valid defense in criminal cases, nor do I think guilty pleas and sometimes pretty lengthy prison sentences can be described as dishonesty. I get what you are saying but it seems a bit light.
- Anyways a president can be charged and convicted, for sure after he leaves office. Probably while still in office. The United States v Nixon established that the president does have to comply with a subpoena for instance, something that suggests that he can be charged too, although this would most certainly go before the supreme court. The most likely outcome would be that impeachment procedures would follow, procedures by the way that don't need an actual crime to be successful
-As a side note most European countries have similar procedures of removing people from office. Berlusconi was forced to resign for instance. Willy Claes in Belgium Willy Claes - Wikipedia
John Profumo in the UK Profumo affair - Wikipedia

Do you think that Mueller is in a tug of love for Manafort ? As in he could give him a deal but trump could pardon him ?

You have to ask what deal Manafort can take? He's in his sixties, any deal he takes that doesn't include him beating the rap completely might very well mean he would die in prison. At the moment the way I see it, unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet.

"unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet."

Yes and if he has a smoking Gun type of evidence and they think he has and if The Donald Pardons him then he forfeits the Fifth Amendment and then they can force him to answer questions and testify against The Donald. If I was advising Trump I would advise him NOT to Pardon Manafort as it ONLY refer to Federal and not State so eg. if they get Manafort in a State situation then he will be FORCED to answer questions and testify he CANNOT say no and do the Fifth Amendment anymore.

So, if you were Manafort what would you do ?
What would you do if you were Trump ?

 

[task0778]

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

Scenario one: I'm not sure anything would happen. At the moment the Republican party is joined a the hip. No Republican politician can win a primary without attaching himself to Trump. This would mean that voting for impeachment regardless of evidence is political suicide.
Scenario two: Pretty unlikely. What is available in the public realm is more then enough to conclude that Trump will never be completely vindicated. Even if it's shown that Trump didn't coordinate with Russia directly. We know the people in his campaign tried on his behalf and we know that Trump was/is actively trying to hamper the investigation. Something that could very well be construed as being a crime in itself.
Not to mention this new charge of campaign finance violations.
As to what would happen, well if I'm not convinced him being guilty would prompt the Republican party then him being as clean as this wouldn't either.
Scenario three: I don't think stupidity is a valid defense in criminal cases, nor do I think guilty pleas and sometimes pretty lengthy prison sentences can be described as dishonesty. I get what you are saying but it seems a bit light.
- Anyways a president can be charged and convicted, for sure after he leaves office. Probably while still in office. The United States v Nixon established that the president does have to comply with a subpoena for instance, something that suggests that he can be charged too, although this would most certainly go before the supreme court. The most likely outcome would be that impeachment procedures would follow, procedures by the way that don't need an actual crime to be successful
-As a side note most European countries have similar procedures of removing people from office. Berlusconi was forced to resign for instance. Willy Claes in Belgium Willy Claes - Wikipedia
John Profumo in the UK Profumo affair - Wikipedia

Do you think that Mueller is in a tug of love for Manafort ? As in he could give him a deal but trump could pardon him ?

You have to ask what deal Manafort can take? He's in his sixties, any deal he takes that doesn't include him beating the rap completely might very well mean he would die in prison. At the moment the way I see it, unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet.

"unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet."

Yes and if he has a smoking Gun type of evidence and they think he has and if The Donald Pardons him then he forfeits the Fifth Amendment and then they can force him to answer questions and testify against The Donald. If I was advising Trump I would advise him NOT to Pardon Manafort as it ONLY refer to Federal and not State so eg. if they get Manafort in a State situation then he will be FORCED to answer questions and testify he CANNOT say no and do the Fifth Amendment anymore.

Forfeit the 5th Amendment? I don't think so, can anybody tell me under what circumstances my 5th amendment rights could be gone?

That said (asked), it sounds like Manafort was guilty and therefore ought not to be pardoned. JMO.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

Scenario one: I'm not sure anything would happen. At the moment the Republican party is joined a the hip. No Republican politician can win a primary without attaching himself to Trump. This would mean that voting for impeachment regardless of evidence is political suicide.
Scenario two: Pretty unlikely. What is available in the public realm is more then enough to conclude that Trump will never be completely vindicated. Even if it's shown that Trump didn't coordinate with Russia directly. We know the people in his campaign tried on his behalf and we know that Trump was/is actively trying to hamper the investigation. Something that could very well be construed as being a crime in itself.
Not to mention this new charge of campaign finance violations.
As to what would happen, well if I'm not convinced him being guilty would prompt the Republican party then him being as clean as this wouldn't either.
Scenario three: I don't think stupidity is a valid defense in criminal cases, nor do I think guilty pleas and sometimes pretty lengthy prison sentences can be described as dishonesty. I get what you are saying but it seems a bit light.
- Anyways a president can be charged and convicted, for sure after he leaves office. Probably while still in office. The United States v Nixon established that the president does have to comply with a subpoena for instance, something that suggests that he can be charged too, although this would most certainly go before the supreme court. The most likely outcome would be that impeachment procedures would follow, procedures by the way that don't need an actual crime to be successful
-As a side note most European countries have similar procedures of removing people from office. Berlusconi was forced to resign for instance. Willy Claes in Belgium Willy Claes - Wikipedia
John Profumo in the UK Profumo affair - Wikipedia

Do you think that Mueller is in a tug of love for Manafort ? As in he could give him a deal but trump could pardon him ?

You have to ask what deal Manafort can take? He's in his sixties, any deal he takes that doesn't include him beating the rap completely might very well mean he would die in prison. At the moment the way I see it, unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet.

"unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet."

Yes and if he has a smoking Gun type of evidence and they think he has and if The Donald Pardons him then he forfeits the Fifth Amendment and then they can force him to answer questions and testify against The Donald. If I was advising Trump I would advise him NOT to Pardon Manafort as it ONLY refer to Federal and not State so eg. if they get Manafort in a State situation then he will be FORCED to answer questions and testify he CANNOT say no and do the Fifth Amendment anymore.

So, if you were Manafort what would you do ?
What would you do if you were Trump ?

"So, if you were Manafort what would you do?"

Well I have a sense of loyalty to friends so if I was still okay as friends with them, I would STFU and do the time, if I feel though they have stabbed me in the back I would want to get revenge and so would turn and answer whatever questions.

"What would you do if you were Trump?"

I would not Pardon Manafort and also I would be praying that the Republicans keep control of at least The Senate, not so concerned about The House they can do something but then pointless as The Senate would not have the numbers I think it's Two Thirds to vote Yes.

I like The Donald but I cannot say that EVERYTHING is going to be okay and say all of this is nothing and is not going ANYWHERE, I would LIKE to say that but I am being a Realist in this, IMHO The Donald is going to have to hope that Politics gets in the way, he then needs to think about what he is going to do once he leaves Office because once he leaves Office he does then NOT have Immunity from ANYTHING. They are not even caring I think about the Russian thing they keep mentioning they are investigating, they are moving on from that to widen to now investigate the ENTIRE Trump Organisation business dealings and this will occur in New York under New York STATE Law NOT Federal and IF they use the RICO Law as I think they will IF they find ANYTHING when The Donald is STILL in Office he cannot then even Pardon HIMSELF because a Pardon ONLY is for Federal and NOT for State situations.

The RICO Law this:

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act - Wikipedia

 

[forkup]

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

Scenario one: I'm not sure anything would happen. At the moment the Republican party is joined a the hip. No Republican politician can win a primary without attaching himself to Trump. This would mean that voting for impeachment regardless of evidence is political suicide.
Scenario two: Pretty unlikely. What is available in the public realm is more then enough to conclude that Trump will never be completely vindicated. Even if it's shown that Trump didn't coordinate with Russia directly. We know the people in his campaign tried on his behalf and we know that Trump was/is actively trying to hamper the investigation. Something that could very well be construed as being a crime in itself.
Not to mention this new charge of campaign finance violations.
As to what would happen, well if I'm not convinced him being guilty would prompt the Republican party then him being as clean as this wouldn't either.
Scenario three: I don't think stupidity is a valid defense in criminal cases, nor do I think guilty pleas and sometimes pretty lengthy prison sentences can be described as dishonesty. I get what you are saying but it seems a bit light.
- Anyways a president can be charged and convicted, for sure after he leaves office. Probably while still in office. The United States v Nixon established that the president does have to comply with a subpoena for instance, something that suggests that he can be charged too, although this would most certainly go before the supreme court. The most likely outcome would be that impeachment procedures would follow, procedures by the way that don't need an actual crime to be successful
-As a side note most European countries have similar procedures of removing people from office. Berlusconi was forced to resign for instance. Willy Claes in Belgium Willy Claes - Wikipedia
John Profumo in the UK Profumo affair - Wikipedia

Do you think that Mueller is in a tug of love for Manafort ? As in he could give him a deal but trump could pardon him ?

You have to ask what deal Manafort can take? He's in his sixties, any deal he takes that doesn't include him beating the rap completely might very well mean he would die in prison. At the moment the way I see it, unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet.

"unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet."

Yes and if he has a smoking Gun type of evidence and they think he has and if The Donald Pardons him then he forfeits the Fifth Amendment and then they can force him to answer questions and testify against The Donald. If I was advising Trump I would advise him NOT to Pardon Manafort as it ONLY refer to Federal and not State so eg. if they get Manafort in a State situation then he will be FORCED to answer questions and testify he CANNOT say no and do the Fifth Amendment anymore.

Forfeit the 5th Amendment? I don't think so, can anybody tell me under what circumstances my 5th amendment rights could be gone?

That said (asked), it sounds like Manafort was guilty and therefore ought not to be pardoned. JMO.

When you take a pardon, you admit that you were guilty. Therefore the right to not self incriminate is voided.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

Scenario one: I'm not sure anything would happen. At the moment the Republican party is joined a the hip. No Republican politician can win a primary without attaching himself to Trump. This would mean that voting for impeachment regardless of evidence is political suicide.
Scenario two: Pretty unlikely. What is available in the public realm is more then enough to conclude that Trump will never be completely vindicated. Even if it's shown that Trump didn't coordinate with Russia directly. We know the people in his campaign tried on his behalf and we know that Trump was/is actively trying to hamper the investigation. Something that could very well be construed as being a crime in itself.
Not to mention this new charge of campaign finance violations.
As to what would happen, well if I'm not convinced him being guilty would prompt the Republican party then him being as clean as this wouldn't either.
Scenario three: I don't think stupidity is a valid defense in criminal cases, nor do I think guilty pleas and sometimes pretty lengthy prison sentences can be described as dishonesty. I get what you are saying but it seems a bit light.
- Anyways a president can be charged and convicted, for sure after he leaves office. Probably while still in office. The United States v Nixon established that the president does have to comply with a subpoena for instance, something that suggests that he can be charged too, although this would most certainly go before the supreme court. The most likely outcome would be that impeachment procedures would follow, procedures by the way that don't need an actual crime to be successful
-As a side note most European countries have similar procedures of removing people from office. Berlusconi was forced to resign for instance. Willy Claes in Belgium Willy Claes - Wikipedia
John Profumo in the UK Profumo affair - Wikipedia

Do you think that Mueller is in a tug of love for Manafort ? As in he could give him a deal but trump could pardon him ?

You have to ask what deal Manafort can take? He's in his sixties, any deal he takes that doesn't include him beating the rap completely might very well mean he would die in prison. At the moment the way I see it, unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet.

"unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet."

Yes and if he has a smoking Gun type of evidence and they think he has and if The Donald Pardons him then he forfeits the Fifth Amendment and then they can force him to answer questions and testify against The Donald. If I was advising Trump I would advise him NOT to Pardon Manafort as it ONLY refer to Federal and not State so eg. if they get Manafort in a State situation then he will be FORCED to answer questions and testify he CANNOT say no and do the Fifth Amendment anymore.

Forfeit the 5th Amendment? I don't think so, can anybody tell me under what circumstances my 5th amendment rights could be gone?

That said (asked), it sounds like Manafort was guilty and therefore ought not to be pardoned. JMO.

If you get a Pardon a Federal Pardon for a Federal Crime then you forfeit your right to the Fifth Amendment, look it up Google this, as forkup just comment you have admitted Guilt and now have had a Pardon and so if they want to ask more questions about whatever they can force you to answer, you have nothing to lose because by taking the Pardon you already admit Guilt so you cannot Incriminate yourself because you ALREADY ARE a Federal Criminal, so you then should be able to answer questions about ANYTHING and the ONLY reason why you would WANT to refuse to answer is because you are concealing something ELSE that you KNOW would further Incriminate you on SOMETHING else and you know if you answer they will be able to connect the dots back to whatever bigger fishes they are wanting to get.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

Scenario one: I'm not sure anything would happen. At the moment the Republican party is joined a the hip. No Republican politician can win a primary without attaching himself to Trump. This would mean that voting for impeachment regardless of evidence is political suicide.
Scenario two: Pretty unlikely. What is available in the public realm is more then enough to conclude that Trump will never be completely vindicated. Even if it's shown that Trump didn't coordinate with Russia directly. We know the people in his campaign tried on his behalf and we know that Trump was/is actively trying to hamper the investigation. Something that could very well be construed as being a crime in itself.
Not to mention this new charge of campaign finance violations.
As to what would happen, well if I'm not convinced him being guilty would prompt the Republican party then him being as clean as this wouldn't either.
Scenario three: I don't think stupidity is a valid defense in criminal cases, nor do I think guilty pleas and sometimes pretty lengthy prison sentences can be described as dishonesty. I get what you are saying but it seems a bit light.
- Anyways a president can be charged and convicted, for sure after he leaves office. Probably while still in office. The United States v Nixon established that the president does have to comply with a subpoena for instance, something that suggests that he can be charged too, although this would most certainly go before the supreme court. The most likely outcome would be that impeachment procedures would follow, procedures by the way that don't need an actual crime to be successful
-As a side note most European countries have similar procedures of removing people from office. Berlusconi was forced to resign for instance. Willy Claes in Belgium Willy Claes - Wikipedia
John Profumo in the UK Profumo affair - Wikipedia

Do you think that Mueller is in a tug of love for Manafort ? As in he could give him a deal but trump could pardon him ?

You have to ask what deal Manafort can take? He's in his sixties, any deal he takes that doesn't include him beating the rap completely might very well mean he would die in prison. At the moment the way I see it, unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet.

"unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet."

Yes and if he has a smoking Gun type of evidence and they think he has and if The Donald Pardons him then he forfeits the Fifth Amendment and then they can force him to answer questions and testify against The Donald. If I was advising Trump I would advise him NOT to Pardon Manafort as it ONLY refer to Federal and not State so eg. if they get Manafort in a State situation then he will be FORCED to answer questions and testify he CANNOT say no and do the Fifth Amendment anymore.

Forfeit the 5th Amendment? I don't think so, can anybody tell me under what circumstances my 5th amendment rights could be gone?

That said (asked), it sounds like Manafort was guilty and therefore ought not to be pardoned. JMO.

This from The American Constitution Society, it's all in this paper:

Why President Trump Can’t Pardon His Way Out of the Special Counsel and Cohen Investigations

https://www.acslaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/ACS-CREW-Pardon-paper.pdf

Also:

"The second major difficulty is a legal one. If Manafort were to be pardoned, he would lose his Fifth Amendment right to silence, since he would no longer have a reasonable fear of being prosecuted on the basis of what he said. Manafort would be quickly subpoenaed before a Mueller grand jury and again face a perjury trap."

Here is the full article link to that explain why a Pardon is NOT a good idea:

Why Manafort’s Legal Strategy Could Doom Him—and Donald Trump

 

[task0778]

Scenario one: I'm not sure anything would happen. At the moment the Republican party is joined a the hip. No Republican politician can win a primary without attaching himself to Trump. This would mean that voting for impeachment regardless of evidence is political suicide.
Scenario two: Pretty unlikely. What is available in the public realm is more then enough to conclude that Trump will never be completely vindicated. Even if it's shown that Trump didn't coordinate with Russia directly. We know the people in his campaign tried on his behalf and we know that Trump was/is actively trying to hamper the investigation. Something that could very well be construed as being a crime in itself.
Not to mention this new charge of campaign finance violations.
As to what would happen, well if I'm not convinced him being guilty would prompt the Republican party then him being as clean as this wouldn't either.
Scenario three: I don't think stupidity is a valid defense in criminal cases, nor do I think guilty pleas and sometimes pretty lengthy prison sentences can be described as dishonesty. I get what you are saying but it seems a bit light.
- Anyways a president can be charged and convicted, for sure after he leaves office. Probably while still in office. The United States v Nixon established that the president does have to comply with a subpoena for instance, something that suggests that he can be charged too, although this would most certainly go before the supreme court. The most likely outcome would be that impeachment procedures would follow, procedures by the way that don't need an actual crime to be successful
-As a side note most European countries have similar procedures of removing people from office. Berlusconi was forced to resign for instance. Willy Claes in Belgium Willy Claes - Wikipedia
John Profumo in the UK Profumo affair - Wikipedia

Do you think that Mueller is in a tug of love for Manafort ? As in he could give him a deal but trump could pardon him ?

You have to ask what deal Manafort can take? He's in his sixties, any deal he takes that doesn't include him beating the rap completely might very well mean he would die in prison. At the moment the way I see it, unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet.

"unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet."

Yes and if he has a smoking Gun type of evidence and they think he has and if The Donald Pardons him then he forfeits the Fifth Amendment and then they can force him to answer questions and testify against The Donald. If I was advising Trump I would advise him NOT to Pardon Manafort as it ONLY refer to Federal and not State so eg. if they get Manafort in a State situation then he will be FORCED to answer questions and testify he CANNOT say no and do the Fifth Amendment anymore.

Forfeit the 5th Amendment? I don't think so, can anybody tell me under what circumstances my 5th amendment rights could be gone?

That said (asked), it sounds like Manafort was guilty and therefore ought not to be pardoned. JMO.

When you take a pardon, you admit that you were guilty. Therefore the right to not self incriminate is voided.

And where does it say that? First of all, being pardoned doesn't mean you adminted anything, you were already found guilty in a court of law and is therefore assumed you were guilty of that for which you were convicted. BUT - that does not mean you lose your 5th Amendment rights when it comes to any other charge that might be brought against you. Show me where it says that being pardoned means your 5th Amendment rights are forfeited. Manafort could be subpoenaed to testify in a trial against somebody else, but he cannot be forced to incriminate himself in any new charges that might be brought against him.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

Do you think that Mueller is in a tug of love for Manafort ? As in he could give him a deal but trump could pardon him ?

You have to ask what deal Manafort can take? He's in his sixties, any deal he takes that doesn't include him beating the rap completely might very well mean he would die in prison. At the moment the way I see it, unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet.

"unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet."

Yes and if he has a smoking Gun type of evidence and they think he has and if The Donald Pardons him then he forfeits the Fifth Amendment and then they can force him to answer questions and testify against The Donald. If I was advising Trump I would advise him NOT to Pardon Manafort as it ONLY refer to Federal and not State so eg. if they get Manafort in a State situation then he will be FORCED to answer questions and testify he CANNOT say no and do the Fifth Amendment anymore.

Forfeit the 5th Amendment? I don't think so, can anybody tell me under what circumstances my 5th amendment rights could be gone?

That said (asked), it sounds like Manafort was guilty and therefore ought not to be pardoned. JMO.

When you take a pardon, you admit that you were guilty. Therefore the right to not self incriminate is voided.

And where does it say that? First of all, being pardoned doesn't mean you adminted anything, you were already found guilty in a court of law and is therefore assumed you were guilty of that for which you were convicted. BUT - that does not mean you lose your 5th Amendment rights when it comes to any other charge that might be brought against you. Show me where it says that being pardoned means your 5th Amendment rights are forfeited. Manafort could be subpoenaed to testify in a trial against somebody else, but he cannot be forced to incriminate himself in any new charges that might be brought against him.

Read the links I have just provided, it all is in them especially in the first but it's longer than the second link.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

How is it great that a man empowered to specifically investigate Russian interference and were there any Americans involved and determines no on both counts then goes off on a tangent targeting anyone and everyone involved with the U.S> President? I fail to see any greatness here. It is a blatant abuse of power.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Scenario one: I'm not sure anything would happen. At the moment the Republican party is joined a the hip. No Republican politician can win a primary without attaching himself to Trump. This would mean that voting for impeachment regardless of evidence is political suicide.
Scenario two: Pretty unlikely. What is available in the public realm is more then enough to conclude that Trump will never be completely vindicated. Even if it's shown that Trump didn't coordinate with Russia directly. We know the people in his campaign tried on his behalf and we know that Trump was/is actively trying to hamper the investigation. Something that could very well be construed as being a crime in itself.
Not to mention this new charge of campaign finance violations.
As to what would happen, well if I'm not convinced him being guilty would prompt the Republican party then him being as clean as this wouldn't either.
Scenario three: I don't think stupidity is a valid defense in criminal cases, nor do I think guilty pleas and sometimes pretty lengthy prison sentences can be described as dishonesty. I get what you are saying but it seems a bit light.
- Anyways a president can be charged and convicted, for sure after he leaves office. Probably while still in office. The United States v Nixon established that the president does have to comply with a subpoena for instance, something that suggests that he can be charged too, although this would most certainly go before the supreme court. The most likely outcome would be that impeachment procedures would follow, procedures by the way that don't need an actual crime to be successful
-As a side note most European countries have similar procedures of removing people from office. Berlusconi was forced to resign for instance. Willy Claes in Belgium Willy Claes - Wikipedia
John Profumo in the UK Profumo affair - Wikipedia

Do you think that Mueller is in a tug of love for Manafort ? As in he could give him a deal but trump could pardon him ?

You have to ask what deal Manafort can take? He's in his sixties, any deal he takes that doesn't include him beating the rap completely might very well mean he would die in prison. At the moment the way I see it, unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet.

"unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet."

Yes and if he has a smoking Gun type of evidence and they think he has and if The Donald Pardons him then he forfeits the Fifth Amendment and then they can force him to answer questions and testify against The Donald. If I was advising Trump I would advise him NOT to Pardon Manafort as it ONLY refer to Federal and not State so eg. if they get Manafort in a State situation then he will be FORCED to answer questions and testify he CANNOT say no and do the Fifth Amendment anymore.

Forfeit the 5th Amendment? I don't think so, can anybody tell me under what circumstances my 5th amendment rights could be gone?

That said (asked), it sounds like Manafort was guilty and therefore ought not to be pardoned. JMO.

When you take a pardon, you admit that you were guilty. Therefore the right to not self incriminate is voided.

Horseshit.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

How is it great that a man empowered to specifically investigate Russian interference and were there any Americans involved and determines no on both counts then goes off on a tangent targeting anyone and everyone involved with the U.S> President? I fail to see any greatness here. It is a blatant abuse of power.

I agree this Investigation has now gone OUTSIDE of the mandate it was given, it was supposed to be about ONLY the stupid Russian thing now it is a full spectrum Fishing Expedition that is targeting ANYONE associated with The Donald and also even going back to BEFORE he became American President, in effect the ENTIRE Investigation is now out of control and SOMEONE needs to pull it back in to being STRICTLY about the stupid Russian thing and ZERO other topics.

 

[forkup]

Do you think that Mueller is in a tug of love for Manafort ? As in he could give him a deal but trump could pardon him ?

You have to ask what deal Manafort can take? He's in his sixties, any deal he takes that doesn't include him beating the rap completely might very well mean he would die in prison. At the moment the way I see it, unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet.

"unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet."

Yes and if he has a smoking Gun type of evidence and they think he has and if The Donald Pardons him then he forfeits the Fifth Amendment and then they can force him to answer questions and testify against The Donald. If I was advising Trump I would advise him NOT to Pardon Manafort as it ONLY refer to Federal and not State so eg. if they get Manafort in a State situation then he will be FORCED to answer questions and testify he CANNOT say no and do the Fifth Amendment anymore.

Forfeit the 5th Amendment? I don't think so, can anybody tell me under what circumstances my 5th amendment rights could be gone?

That said (asked), it sounds like Manafort was guilty and therefore ought not to be pardoned. JMO.

When you take a pardon, you admit that you were guilty. Therefore the right to not self incriminate is voided.

And where does it say that? First of all, being pardoned doesn't mean you adminted anything, you were already found guilty in a court of law and is therefore assumed you were guilty of that for which you were convicted. BUT - that does not mean you lose your 5th Amendment rights when it comes to any other charge that might be brought against you. Show me where it says that being pardoned means your 5th Amendment rights are forfeited. Manafort could be subpoenaed to testify in a trial against somebody else, but he cannot be forced to incriminate himself in any new charges that might be brought against him.

Sorry to tell you but when a trial starts the first thing that happens is that the judge asks how you plead. Only if you plead not guilty does it progress further. At any time during a trial you have the opportunity to change your plea. Manafort didn't do this, so that means that to this day he insists that he is NOT guilty.
A pardon is supposed to be an act of mercy on a guilty person. Not for nothing, if Manafort or Trump want to use a presidential prerogative for what it was clearly not intended, I won't shed a tear over the legal ramifications of that act.

 

[sartre play]

My want is Russia out of our elections, the most non partisan honest, talented in there field elected by the people, not by the most money spent.
not realistic but one can dream.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

How is it great that a man empowered to specifically investigate Russian interference and were there any Americans involved and determines no on both counts then goes off on a tangent targeting anyone and everyone involved with the U.S> President? I fail to see any greatness here. It is a blatant abuse of power.

If you are investigating a robbery and find a body what do you do ?

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

My want is Russia out of our elections, the most non partisan honest, talented in there field elected by the people, not by the most money spent.
not realistic but one can dream.

Do you know how many elections America Washington DC have interfered with and/or attempted to? HUNDREDS of SOVEREIGN nations for MULTIPLE decades, either Covert or not so. As of now there is no actual evidence that Russia or ANYONE interfered with the 2016 Election BUT IF anyone did then it would probably be China would be my bet, I would bet on it being Chinese.

 

[forkup]

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

How is it great that a man empowered to specifically investigate Russian interference and were there any Americans involved and determines no on both counts then goes off on a tangent targeting anyone and everyone involved with the U.S> President? I fail to see any greatness here. It is a blatant abuse of power.

I agree this Investigation has now gone OUTSIDE of the mandate it was given, it was supposed to be about ONLY the stupid Russian thing now it is a full spectrum Fishing Expedition that is targeting ANYONE associated with The Donald and also even going back to BEFORE he became American President, in effect the ENTIRE Investigation is now out of control and SOMEONE needs to pull it back in to being STRICTLY about the stupid Russian thing and ZERO other topics.

The mandate had a clear second paragraph.(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download
This is clearly what happened. It's also pretty understandable how it happened. If you want to figure out if Russia coordinated with the Trump campaign, a natural place to start is looking at the financial history of a former lobbyist for a Ukrainian president, who was ousted from his country and is now literally a Putin confidant. So if that financial history contains clear misconduct why wouldn't he pursue it? You are of the opinion a federal prosecutor should simply ignore crimes worth decades in prison?

 

[task0778]

You have to ask what deal Manafort can take? He's in his sixties, any deal he takes that doesn't include him beating the rap completely might very well mean he would die in prison. At the moment the way I see it, unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet.

"unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet."

Yes and if he has a smoking Gun type of evidence and they think he has and if The Donald Pardons him then he forfeits the Fifth Amendment and then they can force him to answer questions and testify against The Donald. If I was advising Trump I would advise him NOT to Pardon Manafort as it ONLY refer to Federal and not State so eg. if they get Manafort in a State situation then he will be FORCED to answer questions and testify he CANNOT say no and do the Fifth Amendment anymore.

Forfeit the 5th Amendment? I don't think so, can anybody tell me under what circumstances my 5th amendment rights could be gone?

That said (asked), it sounds like Manafort was guilty and therefore ought not to be pardoned. JMO.

When you take a pardon, you admit that you were guilty. Therefore the right to not self incriminate is voided.

And where does it say that? First of all, being pardoned doesn't mean you admitted anything, you were already found guilty in a court of law and is therefore assumed you were guilty of that for which you were convicted. BUT - that does not mean you lose your 5th Amendment rights when it comes to any other charge that might be brought against you. Show me where it says that being pardoned means your 5th Amendment rights are forfeited. Manafort could be subpoenaed to testify in a trial against somebody else, but he cannot be forced to incriminate himself in any new charges that might be brought against him.

Read the links I have just provided, it all is in them especially in the first but it's longer than the second link.

I read 'em. Your 1st link deals with double jeopardy, I don't see anything in there that says someone's rights against self-incrimination are forfeited. Maybe you can find that passage. Certainly, Manafort or anyone else could be brought up on State charges somewhere for basically the same thing, a presidential pardon doesn't shield him from that. The second one is a Vanity Fair article, which is most likely biased; so far as I can tell, there is no circumstance whatsoever that compels me to testify against myself in any US court of law. I'm gonna keep looking though, cuz I think this is interesting; I cannot believe that I could be forced to incriminate myself, not buying it.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

I have to say it is hugely entertaining and a credit to the US that it is taking place. Not many countries would allow this and if you are looking for an example of greatness in a nation then look no further.

Obviously we dont know what Mueller knows and so we dont know what the end results would be. But lets get ur pipes out and sketch in what migh thappen.

Scenario 1.
Democrats dream. Trump found to have colluded with Russia. Cash trail from Moscow to Mar e Lago, money owed to zillionaires linked to Putin and many,many tapes that Donny would prefer Melania not to see.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 2
Republicans dream. Trump completely vindicated. There is nothing to see here.

What would happen here ?

Scenario 3
Bit of a mixed bag. Trump shown as naive and some associates as dishonest. Doesnt look good but not enough to convict.

What would happen here ?

Is it possible to charge and convict a President ?
If 1 or 3 was the outcome could Trump continue as President ?

What is going to happen ?

How is it great that a man empowered to specifically investigate Russian interference and were there any Americans involved and determines no on both counts then goes off on a tangent targeting anyone and everyone involved with the U.S> President? I fail to see any greatness here. It is a blatant abuse of power.

I agree this Investigation has now gone OUTSIDE of the mandate it was given, it was supposed to be about ONLY the stupid Russian thing now it is a full spectrum Fishing Expedition that is targeting ANYONE associated with The Donald and also even going back to BEFORE he became American President, in effect the ENTIRE Investigation is now out of control and SOMEONE needs to pull it back in to being STRICTLY about the stupid Russian thing and ZERO other topics.

The mandate had a clear second paragraph.(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download
This is clearly what happened. It's also pretty understandable how it happened. If you want to figure out if Russia coordinated with the Trump campaign, a natural place to start is look at the financial history of a former lobbyist for a Ukranian president, who was ousted from is country and is now literally a Putin confidant. So if that financial history contains clear misconduct why wouldn't he pursue it? You are of the opinion a federal prosecutor should simply ignore crimes worth decades in prison?

The Trump Organisation business fits in this Russia thing how? Investigating the ENTIRE Trump Organisation was NOT in the original mandate, expanding the mandate to INCLUDE the Trump Organisation is an abuse of the original mandate and so is investigating relationships that Trump had 10, 15, 20, 25 years ago BEFORE the 2016 Election, BEFORE he became President.

RE. Ukraine, the Obama Administration was behind the orchestrated overthrow of the democratically elected President . Hello Victoria Nuland?

 

[forkup]

"unless Manafort has a "smoking Gun" type of evidence holding out for a pardon seems his best bet."

Yes and if he has a smoking Gun type of evidence and they think he has and if The Donald Pardons him then he forfeits the Fifth Amendment and then they can force him to answer questions and testify against The Donald. If I was advising Trump I would advise him NOT to Pardon Manafort as it ONLY refer to Federal and not State so eg. if they get Manafort in a State situation then he will be FORCED to answer questions and testify he CANNOT say no and do the Fifth Amendment anymore.

Forfeit the 5th Amendment? I don't think so, can anybody tell me under what circumstances my 5th amendment rights could be gone?

That said (asked), it sounds like Manafort was guilty and therefore ought not to be pardoned. JMO.

When you take a pardon, you admit that you were guilty. Therefore the right to not self incriminate is voided.

And where does it say that? First of all, being pardoned doesn't mean you admitted anything, you were already found guilty in a court of law and is therefore assumed you were guilty of that for which you were convicted. BUT - that does not mean you lose your 5th Amendment rights when it comes to any other charge that might be brought against you. Show me where it says that being pardoned means your 5th Amendment rights are forfeited. Manafort could be subpoenaed to testify in a trial against somebody else, but he cannot be forced to incriminate himself in any new charges that might be brought against him.

Read the links I have just provided, it all is in them especially in the first but it's longer than the second link.

I read 'em. Your 1st link deals with double jeopardy, I don't see anything in there that says someone's rights against self-incrimination are forfeited. Maybe you can find that passage. Certainly, Manafort or anyone else could be brought up on State charges somewhere for basically the same thing, a presidential pardon doesn't shield him from that. The second one is a Vanity Fair article, which is most likely biased; so far as I can tell, there is no circumstance whatsoever that compels me to testify against myself in any US court of law. I'm gonna keep looking though, cuz I think this is interesting; I cannot believe that I could be forced to incriminate myself, not buying it.

Think of it this way, the word pardon is from the French word pardon. It means "excuse me", this implies that you did something wrong and ask forgiveness. If you admit that you did something wrong what would then be the use of not self incriminating yourself? You already admitted to doing something wrong. That's the legal stance on it.