MW advocates - what are the downsides of minimum wage?

[danielpalos]

This thread is addressed to supporters of minimum wage laws. Detractors claim that minimum wage causes unemployment and/or inflation. But most supporters will vigorously deny this. Yet they seem to set their sights pretty low when it comes to setting the level of minimum wage. I assume this is because they believe there is some downside to minimum wage, some reason to not raise it to $200/hr, but it seems they never want to talk about what that reason might be. Hopefully, someone will step up here, and clear the air.

Stupid argument is stupid.

The minimum wage is designed to re a sensible minimum wage. $200 an hour wouldn't be sensible, thus only insane idiots even bring it up. Hell $15 isn't sensible, but neither is $7.25.

Why isn't $200/hr sensible? That's all I'm really asking. Why would it be bad to set it very high? Answering that question is necessary when debating where we should set the minimum wage.

Clearly you recognize that it would be bad to set the minimum wage "too high". Why's it so hard to admit that and honestly discuss your reasoning?

how much tax revenue do we need to raise? what is the objective in changing that ratio.

 

[Thinker101]

Quick question for those that cite businesses not being able to afford the increase in wages. Are you aware that salaries/wages are a tax write off for small businesses?

Wages paid are a tax deduction. Payments to employees (salaries, wages, bonuses, and taxable fringe benefits are deductible business expenses. Payments to sole proprietors, partners, and LLC members are not.

Cool. So what is the problem with raising MW if the wages are a tax write off for the business? Everyone keeps saying its an expense the businesses have to eat.

Deduction not write off...similar but definitely not the same.

 

[DandyDonovan]

Minimum wage was never supposed to be a "living wage." It was supposed to be for kids under 18 during summer.

As government got bigger and bigger and more expensive, it has increased costs on businesses, driven some out of the US, and forced wages DOWN.

Want lower end wages to RISE?

CUT GOVERNMENT SPENDING.


Nobody was bitching about minimum wage before W's 8 year Bible Thumping Socialist PORKFEST.... followed by QUEER-O.

Thats also a dumb argument. Welfare wasnt meant to be for anyone other than whites but that too changed with time. The facts are that people with families are working shitty jobs for low wages. The MW should be something that gives people with a work ethic a reason to not be on welfare.

So how does rasing minimum wage help?

If MW were raised to $11 an hour , welfare use would drop by at least 15% by most studies. That's a pretty good savings of tax dollars.

How much will inflation go up after they have to give me and every other worker above minimum wage another $4.00 an hour raise to keep my pay in line?

How silly. First of all, sorry you're only earning minimum wage, second of all, a small portion of wage earners are and would thus receive a $4 an hour raise. Most people are already around the $9-10 range (lower end workers we're talking about) and thus would receive at most a $2 an hour raise, and that is if we immediately raised it to the correct level, which I haven't advocated.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Minimum wage was never supposed to be a "living wage." It was supposed to be for kids under 18 during summer.

As government got bigger and bigger and more expensive, it has increased costs on businesses, driven some out of the US, and forced wages DOWN.

Want lower end wages to RISE?

CUT GOVERNMENT SPENDING.


Nobody was bitching about minimum wage before W's 8 year Bible Thumping Socialist PORKFEST.... followed by QUEER-O.

Thats also a dumb argument. Welfare wasnt meant to be for anyone other than whites but that too changed with time. The facts are that people with families are working shitty jobs for low wages. The MW should be something that gives people with a work ethic a reason to not be on welfare.

So how does rasing minimum wage help?

If MW were raised to $11 an hour , welfare use would drop by at least 15% by most studies. That's a pretty good savings of tax dollars.

How much will inflation go up after they have to give me and every other worker above minimum wage another $4.00 an hour raise to keep my pay in line?

How silly. First of all, sorry you're only earning minimum wage, second of all, a small portion of wage earners are and would thus receive a $4 an hour raise. Most people are already around the $9-10 range (lower end workers we're talking about) and thus would receive at most a $2 an hour raise, and that is if we immediately raised it to the correct level, which I haven't advocated.

Silly? The starting salary at my place of employment is $12.00 an hour currently. We employ mostly veterans, military retirees, and their dependents. The job requires massive computer, customer service skills and knowledge of the military lifestyle. Do you think they will want to work in a fast-paced call center, using the internet and social media for a half a buck more per hour than they can get flipping burgers across the street at Burger King?

Their supervisors make $1.00 an hour more and even the exempt employees make a few dollars more in salary.

Those Whoppers will go up in price, so grabbing a bite to eat at work will cost them more money or they will lousy customer service and longer lines.

Catch a clue! Everyone will want more money! The dog will be trying to catch its own tail to keep up with the costs you just artificially raised with increasing the minimum wage. Common sense says it won't work and history proves that costs or unemployment will have to increase.

 

[McRocket]

The CBO - which probably knows more about the effects of raising the Minimum Wage than ANYONE on this board - has said that raising the MW to $10.10 will cause at least 500,000 lost jobs...quite possibly a million.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/44995-MinimumWage.pdf


Also, this notion that a MW must be a 'living wage' is utter nonsense. No where in the Constitution or the UN Charter does it say that a country's MW must be a 'living wage'.

But, for the record, the present MW IS a 'living wage'.

The poverty line in America in 2018 is $12,140.

Poverty Guidelines

At 2,000 hours per year times $7.25 equals $14,500...well over the poverty line.

And for a family of four? The poverty line is $25,100.

If both parents work MW, full time jobs - that equals $29,000.

Again, this is well over the poverty line and is thus a 'living wage'.


Having said that, the MW should go up every year with the rate of inflation...that is just fair.
Now the last time the national MW went up was in 2009. Using the BLS inflation calculator, that means that the minimum wage today should be $8.68 to keep that original $7.25 in 2009 pace with inflation.

So I would have no problem with the MW raised to, say, $8.75 AND to have that figure rise every year with inflation.

And at $8.75 per hour, that would mean someone on minimum wage, full time would be way over the poverty line...easily making it a 'living wage'.


Finally, please save your 'the poverty line is not a living wage' argument. I did not make the poverty line average..the government did. You got a problem with it - please take it up with them.

 

[Asclepias]

Quick question for those that cite businesses not being able to afford the increase in wages. Are you aware that salaries/wages are a tax write off for small businesses?

Wages paid are a tax deduction. Payments to employees (salaries, wages, bonuses, and taxable fringe benefits are deductible business expenses. Payments to sole proprietors, partners, and LLC members are not.

Cool. So what is the problem with raising MW if the wages are a tax write off for the business? Everyone keeps saying its an expense the businesses have to eat.

Deduction not write off...similar but definitely not the same.

Whats the difference? Both reduce your taxable income. Matter of fact I use the two interchangeably.

 

[dblack]

Quick question for those that cite businesses not being able to afford the increase in wages. Are you aware that salaries/wages are a tax write off for small businesses?

Wages paid are a tax deduction. Payments to employees (salaries, wages, bonuses, and taxable fringe benefits are deductible business expenses. Payments to sole proprietors, partners, and LLC members are not.

Cool. So what is the problem with raising MW if the wages are a tax write off for the business? Everyone keeps saying its an expense the businesses have to eat.

Deduction not write off...similar but definitely not the same.

Whats the difference? Both reduce your taxable income. Matter of fact I use the two interchangeably.

And neither compensates a business owner for increased labor costs. Not even sure why you brought it up. It's irrelevant.

 

[danielpalos]

Quick question for those that cite businesses not being able to afford the increase in wages. Are you aware that salaries/wages are a tax write off for small businesses?

Wages paid are a tax deduction. Payments to employees (salaries, wages, bonuses, and taxable fringe benefits are deductible business expenses. Payments to sole proprietors, partners, and LLC members are not.

Cool. So what is the problem with raising MW if the wages are a tax write off for the business? Everyone keeps saying its an expense the businesses have to eat.

Deduction not write off...similar but definitely not the same.

Whats the difference? Both reduce your taxable income. Matter of fact I use the two interchangeably.

And neither compensates a business owner for increased labor costs. Not even sure why you brought it up. It's irrelevant.

the increased "tax write off" does that.

 

[Asclepias]

Quick question for those that cite businesses not being able to afford the increase in wages. Are you aware that salaries/wages are a tax write off for small businesses?

Wages paid are a tax deduction. Payments to employees (salaries, wages, bonuses, and taxable fringe benefits are deductible business expenses. Payments to sole proprietors, partners, and LLC members are not.

Cool. So what is the problem with raising MW if the wages are a tax write off for the business? Everyone keeps saying its an expense the businesses have to eat.

Deduction not write off...similar but definitely not the same.

Whats the difference? Both reduce your taxable income. Matter of fact I use the two interchangeably.

And neither compensates a business owner for increased labor costs. Not even sure why you brought it up. It's irrelevant.

So you are seriously claiming that if a business owner has to pay say 400k in wages for his employees and gets to write it off thats not compensation? Have you been drug tested recently?

 

[Lesh]

Do you think they will want to work in a fast-paced call center, using the internet and social media for a half a buck more per hour than they can get flipping burgers across the street at Burger King?

Yea they would. WHat would YOU prefer to do?

Catch a clue! Everyone will want more money!

That's kind of the point. Why is it that conservatives always try to keep wages for middle class folks as low as possible?

 

[Mac1958]

Wages paid are a tax deduction. Payments to employees (salaries, wages, bonuses, and taxable fringe benefits are deductible business expenses. Payments to sole proprietors, partners, and LLC members are not.

Cool. So what is the problem with raising MW if the wages are a tax write off for the business? Everyone keeps saying its an expense the businesses have to eat.

Deduction not write off...similar but definitely not the same.

Whats the difference? Both reduce your taxable income. Matter of fact I use the two interchangeably.

And neither compensates a business owner for increased labor costs. Not even sure why you brought it up. It's irrelevant.

the increased "tax write off" does that.

There is a significant difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit. They're only getting a deduction.

Plus they're still having to use current cash flow to pay the employees long before any deductions are claimed or realized.

This just isn't a selling point to a business owner. Anyone trying this one would get laughed out of a business owner's office.
.

 

[danielpalos]

Cool. So what is the problem with raising MW if the wages are a tax write off for the business? Everyone keeps saying its an expense the businesses have to eat.

Deduction not write off...similar but definitely not the same.

Whats the difference? Both reduce your taxable income. Matter of fact I use the two interchangeably.

And neither compensates a business owner for increased labor costs. Not even sure why you brought it up. It's irrelevant.

the increased "tax write off" does that.

There is a significant difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit. They're only getting a deduction.

Plus they're still having to use current cash flow to pay the employees long before any deductions are claimed or realized.

This just isn't a selling point to a business owner. Anyone trying this one would get laughed out of a business owner's office.
.

Capitalists usually afford entire departments to help them conform to rational choice theory or fill out corporate welfare forms in triplicate.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Minimum wage was never supposed to be a "living wage." It was supposed to be for kids under 18 during summer.

As government got bigger and bigger and more expensive, it has increased costs on businesses, driven some out of the US, and forced wages DOWN.

Want lower end wages to RISE?

CUT GOVERNMENT SPENDING.


Nobody was bitching about minimum wage before W's 8 year Bible Thumping Socialist PORKFEST.... followed by QUEER-O.

Thats also a dumb argument. Welfare wasnt meant to be for anyone other than whites but that too changed with time. The facts are that people with families are working shitty jobs for low wages. The MW should be something that gives people with a work ethic a reason to not be on welfare.

So how does rasing minimum wage help?

If MW were raised to $11 an hour , welfare use would drop by at least 15% by most studies. That's a pretty good savings of tax dollars.

How much will inflation go up after they have to give me and every other worker above minimum wage another $4.00 an hour raise to keep my pay in line?

How silly. First of all, sorry you're only earning minimum wage, second of all, a small portion of wage earners are and would thus receive a $4 an hour raise. Most people are already around the $9-10 range (lower end workers we're talking about) and thus would receive at most a $2 an hour raise, and that is if we immediately raised it to the correct level, which I haven't advocated.

So people making $9 an hour would get a raise to make minimum wage


.

 

[Lesh]

Cool. So what is the problem with raising MW if the wages are a tax write off for the business? Everyone keeps saying its an expense the businesses have to eat.

Deduction not write off...similar but definitely not the same.

Whats the difference? Both reduce your taxable income. Matter of fact I use the two interchangeably.

And neither compensates a business owner for increased labor costs. Not even sure why you brought it up. It's irrelevant.

the increased "tax write off" does that.

There is a significant difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit. They're only getting a deduction.

Plus they're still having to use current cash flow to pay the employees long before any deductions are claimed or realized.

This just isn't a selling point to a business owner. Anyone trying this one would get laughed out of a business owner's office.
.

You realize that businesses pay their quarterly taxes in advance...right?

 

[Lesh]

Thats also a dumb argument. Welfare wasnt meant to be for anyone other than whites but that too changed with time. The facts are that people with families are working shitty jobs for low wages. The MW should be something that gives people with a work ethic a reason to not be on welfare.

So how does rasing minimum wage help?

If MW were raised to $11 an hour , welfare use would drop by at least 15% by most studies. That's a pretty good savings of tax dollars.

How much will inflation go up after they have to give me and every other worker above minimum wage another $4.00 an hour raise to keep my pay in line?

How silly. First of all, sorry you're only earning minimum wage, second of all, a small portion of wage earners are and would thus receive a $4 an hour raise. Most people are already around the $9-10 range (lower end workers we're talking about) and thus would receive at most a $2 an hour raise, and that is if we immediately raised it to the correct level, which I haven't advocated.

So people making $9 an hour would get a raise to make minimum wage


.

You understand that a $9/hr wage results in $18K for the YEAR right?

 

[Wyatt earp]

So how does rasing minimum wage help?

If MW were raised to $11 an hour , welfare use would drop by at least 15% by most studies. That's a pretty good savings of tax dollars.

How much will inflation go up after they have to give me and every other worker above minimum wage another $4.00 an hour raise to keep my pay in line?

How silly. First of all, sorry you're only earning minimum wage, second of all, a small portion of wage earners are and would thus receive a $4 an hour raise. Most people are already around the $9-10 range (lower end workers we're talking about) and thus would receive at most a $2 an hour raise, and that is if we immediately raised it to the correct level, which I haven't advocated.

So people making $9 an hour would get a raise to make minimum wage


.

You understand that a $9/hr wage results in $18K for the YEAR right?

You understand it's still minimum wage right?

 

[Wyatt earp]

If MW were raised to $11 an hour , welfare use would drop by at least 15% by most studies. That's a pretty good savings of tax dollars.

How much will inflation go up after they have to give me and every other worker above minimum wage another $4.00 an hour raise to keep my pay in line?

How silly. First of all, sorry you're only earning minimum wage, second of all, a small portion of wage earners are and would thus receive a $4 an hour raise. Most people are already around the $9-10 range (lower end workers we're talking about) and thus would receive at most a $2 an hour raise, and that is if we immediately raised it to the correct level, which I haven't advocated.

So people making $9 an hour would get a raise to make minimum wage


.

You understand that a $9/hr wage results in $18K for the YEAR right?

You understand it's still minimum wage right?

It's the bottom/zero/zilch..why can't you assholes comprehend it?


.

 

[Mac1958]

Deduction not write off...similar but definitely not the same.

Whats the difference? Both reduce your taxable income. Matter of fact I use the two interchangeably.

And neither compensates a business owner for increased labor costs. Not even sure why you brought it up. It's irrelevant.

the increased "tax write off" does that.

There is a significant difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit. They're only getting a deduction.

Plus they're still having to use current cash flow to pay the employees long before any deductions are claimed or realized.

This just isn't a selling point to a business owner. Anyone trying this one would get laughed out of a business owner's office.
.

You realize that businesses pay their quarterly taxes in advance...right?

Yes. I do, and so do my business owner clients. The cash still has to be there. And they're still only getting deductions.
.

 

[DandyDonovan]

Common sense says it won't work and history proves that costs or unemployment will have to increase.

Common sense is obviously something completely foreign to you.

History has shown conclusively that we don't actually know what raising the MW does to unemployment nor inflation, because we've never fucking done it. The MW has steadily lost value since 1938. To the point now that it i worth 88% of what it was as short as 40 years ago.

So just stop with your nonfactual "history has shown us" nonsense.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Common sense says it won't work and history proves that costs or unemployment will have to increase.

Common sense is obviously something completely foreign to you.

History has shown conclusively that we don't actually know what raising the MW does to unemployment nor inflation, because we've never fucking done it. The MW has steadily lost value since 1938. To the point now that it i worth 88% of what it was as short as 40 years ago.

So just stop with your nonfactual "history has shown us" nonsense.

What are you smoking? We have done it forever and it still leads to the same result . They are still making minimum wage

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