Nathan Bedford Forrest statue causing controversy

[JakeStarkey]

The only one's hindsight on that matter, of course, is this: would Lincoln have inflexibly insisted on perpetual union based on (1) recognition of electoral, constitutional process, (2) no slavery in the territories, and (3) federal supremacy over federal institutions in the south.

And I don't know if he would or would not, but I suspect he would still do it and have exercised dictatorial power that much more quickly in order to end the secession.

I think it was worth it, but I doubt that the war could have been prevented, either, with the defeat of Clay in 1844. 2 million casualties, 600000 (at least) dead, and maybe a 100000 more civilians dead.

I agree, but was unity worth 600,000 dead? Or was it 600,000 casualties?

I just can't wrap my head around it. Of course, we have the power of hindsight, but national unity worth 600,000? I can come to no other conclusion than 600,000 dead to maintain a country was about 600,000 too many.

 

[buckeye45_73]

Monument to Nathan Bedford Forrest stirs dispute - WSFA.com: News Weather and Sports for Montgomery, AL.

Someone needs to tell that carpetbagging son of a bitch to go back up north. Oh and they should also give him a few sources showing what Sherman did on his march to the sea in my beloved south..man there ain't nothing worse than a southerner who hates the south and her heritage.

Let's rush to the defense of the bigots!

Why am I not surprised to see you in here. Why don't you try doing a bit of research as to where the first slaves were brought to in America. It wasn't the south. Oh and did you also know Forrest disbanded the Klan in 1869 because it became to radical and violent.Obviously not violent enough.

I'm from Memphis and we have a park named after him in Dowtown, near the University of TN-Memphis.

People see that and make a judgement, they dont actually want to learn the truth....

 

[JakeStarkey]

The truth was the general was a butcher. Of course good generals are good butchers.

 

[JWBooth]

Let's rush to the defense of the bigots!

Why am I not surprised to see you in here. Why don't you try doing a bit of research as to where the first slaves were brought to in America. It wasn't the south. Oh and did you also know Forrest disbanded the Klan in 1869 because it became to radical and violent.Obviously not violent enough.

I'm from Memphis and we have a park named after him in Dowtown, near the University of TN-Memphis.

People see that and make a judgement, they dont actually want to learn the truth....

He and his wife are buried under the monument there.

 

[JakeStarkey]

When was the last time someone looked?

 

[Unkotare]

I agree, but was unity worth 600,000 dead? Or was it 600,000 casualties?

Yes.

Why?

It's not just any union.

"America is God's crucible, the great Melting-Pot where all the races of Europe are melting and reforming!... The real American has not yet arrived. He is only in the crucible, I tell you - he will be the fusion of all races." ~Israel Zangwill

"When an American says that he loves his country, he means not only that he loves the New England hills, the prairies glistening in the sun, the wide and rising plains, the great mountains, and the sea. He means that he loves an inner air, an inner light in which freedom lives and in which a man can draw the breath of self-respect." ~Adlai Stevenson

"We dare not forget that we are the heirs of that first revolution." ~John F. Kennedy

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." ~Abraham Lincoln

"My favorite thing about the United States? Lots of Americans, one America." ~Val Saintsbury


"Of all the supervised conditions for life offered man, those under U S A's constitution have proved the best. Wherefore, be sure when you start modifying, corrupting or abrogating it." ~Martin H. Fischer


"Ours is the only country deliberately founded on a good idea." ~John Gunther


"America is much more than a geographical fact. It is a political and moral fact - the first community in which men set out in principle to institutionalize freedom, responsible government, and human equality." ~Adlai Stevenson


"America did not invent human rights. In a very real sense... human rights invented America." ~Jimmy Carter


"We're Americans - with a capital A! And do you know what that means? Do you? It means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world." ~From the movie Stripes


"The American Revolution was a beginning, not a consummation." ~Woodrow Wilson


"It predominates over the whole of society in America—Application made of this principle by the Americans even before their Revolution—Development given to it by that Revolution—Gradual and irresistible extension of the elective qualification.

The Principle Of The Sovereignty Of The People In America" ~ Alexis de Tocqueville



Preserving the Union was much, much more than would be simply binding the territories of any other nation that existed at the time. The United States - The Great Experiment - was an evolutionary leap forward in the human race. Our Union and what it stood for became a light and an inspiration for dozens of countries and countless millions of people all across the globe.

Faced with an irresolvable problem (and oh had they tried) stemming from a mistake, a flaw, an essential contradiction that was overlooked, avoided, or irrationally justified in our newborn Union and allowed to fester until it grew into an ugly, weeping tumor, we were forced to bend our principles near the breaking point in order to save the patient. That patient was and is bigger than any one or any million of us because it stands for something irreplacable for all human beings at all times. Post surgical recovery has been slow, and the patient will never be perfect, but was it worth the operation? Damn right it was. Even if the patient hadn't pulled through it would have been worth the effort to excise that tumor.

 

[The Gadfly]

The US has been bogged down in 3 guerilla wars in Vietnam,Afghanistan,Iraq and got its ass kicked. The south is full of mountains in the Appalachians and its easy terrain for a guerilla war. As for your contract I would consider loyalty to the south more important than I would loyalty to the US.

When the South wins....are you going to bring back slavery or just make marrying your sister legal?

Neither. If we ever get our beloved country back, the first thing I'd like to do is kick out all the damnyankees who have migrated down here like a plague of unwelcome locusts, and keep the rest of your sorry species off of Southern soil. I think that would suffice. After 4 years of brutal Yankee aggression, another ten of having our states ("conquered provinces" to you) raped and systematically looted by Yankee trash like you, and 140 years of Yankee occupation, during which you have gratuitously sniped at us, demeaned us, falsified our history, attempted to eradicate our culture, and insulted us on our own soil, I think we have every right to despise you, and believe me, I do!. I have no Yankee friends, and don't wish to have any. I have NEVER met a Yankee who was anything but ill-mannered, crass, boorish, loud, obnoxious, arrogant to a fault, and vulgar. You have all the social graces of pigs, and combine the worst characteristics of a shark and a vulture. That's the women-the men are even worse! I may have served with you Northern trash, (and had to put up with constant insults from most of you) but I didn't have to like any of you, and I still don't! Why my Revolutionary ancestors EVER decided to join a country with you in it is a complete mystery to me, but I certainly regret it. Perhaps climate change will cause an ice age, and you will all freeze in the dark-I can only hope!

 

[Publius1787]

Yes.

Why?

It's not just any union.

"America is God's crucible, the great Melting-Pot where all the races of Europe are melting and reforming!... The real American has not yet arrived. He is only in the crucible, I tell you - he will be the fusion of all races." ~Israel Zangwill

"When an American says that he loves his country, he means not only that he loves the New England hills, the prairies glistening in the sun, the wide and rising plains, the great mountains, and the sea. He means that he loves an inner air, an inner light in which freedom lives and in which a man can draw the breath of self-respect." ~Adlai Stevenson

"We dare not forget that we are the heirs of that first revolution." ~John F. Kennedy

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." ~Abraham Lincoln

"My favorite thing about the United States? Lots of Americans, one America." ~Val Saintsbury


"Of all the supervised conditions for life offered man, those under U S A's constitution have proved the best. Wherefore, be sure when you start modifying, corrupting or abrogating it." ~Martin H. Fischer


"Ours is the only country deliberately founded on a good idea." ~John Gunther


"America is much more than a geographical fact. It is a political and moral fact - the first community in which men set out in principle to institutionalize freedom, responsible government, and human equality." ~Adlai Stevenson


"America did not invent human rights. In a very real sense... human rights invented America." ~Jimmy Carter


"We're Americans - with a capital A! And do you know what that means? Do you? It means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world." ~From the movie Stripes


"The American Revolution was a beginning, not a consummation." ~Woodrow Wilson


"It predominates over the whole of society in America—Application made of this principle by the Americans even before their Revolution—Development given to it by that Revolution—Gradual and irresistible extension of the elective qualification.

The Principle Of The Sovereignty Of The People In America" ~ Alexis de Tocqueville



Preserving the Union was much, much more than would be simply binding the territories of any other nation that existed at the time. The United States - The Great Experiment - was an evolutionary leap forward in the human race. Our Union and what it stood for became a light and an inspiration for dozens of countries and countless millions of people all across the globe.

Faced with an irresolvable problem (and oh had they tried) stemming from a mistake, a flaw, an essential contradiction that was overlooked, avoided, or irrationally justified in our newborn Union and allowed to fester until it grew into an ugly, weeping tumor, we were forced to bend our principles near the breaking point in order to save the patient. That patient was and is bigger than any one or any million of us because it stands for something irreplacable for all human beings at all times. Post surgical recovery has been slow, and the patient will never be perfect, but was it worth the operation? Damn right it was. Even if the patient hadn't pulled through it would have been worth the effort to excise that tumor.

The emotional quotes do nothing to thwart the moral axiom of democratic republicanism.

 

[The Gadfly]

Yes.

Why?

It's not just any union.

"America is God's crucible, the great Melting-Pot where all the races of Europe are melting and reforming!... The real American has not yet arrived. He is only in the crucible, I tell you - he will be the fusion of all races." ~Israel Zangwill

"When an American says that he loves his country, he means not only that he loves the New England hills, the prairies glistening in the sun, the wide and rising plains, the great mountains, and the sea. He means that he loves an inner air, an inner light in which freedom lives and in which a man can draw the breath of self-respect." ~Adlai Stevenson

"We dare not forget that we are the heirs of that first revolution." ~John F. Kennedy

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." ~Abraham Lincoln

"My favorite thing about the United States? Lots of Americans, one America." ~Val Saintsbury


"Of all the supervised conditions for life offered man, those under U S A's constitution have proved the best. Wherefore, be sure when you start modifying, corrupting or abrogating it." ~Martin H. Fischer


"Ours is the only country deliberately founded on a good idea." ~John Gunther


"America is much more than a geographical fact. It is a political and moral fact - the first community in which men set out in principle to institutionalize freedom, responsible government, and human equality." ~Adlai Stevenson


"America did not invent human rights. In a very real sense... human rights invented America." ~Jimmy Carter


"We're Americans - with a capital A! And do you know what that means? Do you? It means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world." ~From the movie Stripes


"The American Revolution was a beginning, not a consummation." ~Woodrow Wilson


"It predominates over the whole of society in America—Application made of this principle by the Americans even before their Revolution—Development given to it by that Revolution—Gradual and irresistible extension of the elective qualification.

The Principle Of The Sovereignty Of The People In America" ~ Alexis de Tocqueville



Preserving the Union was much, much more than would be simply binding the territories of any other nation that existed at the time. The United States - The Great Experiment - was an evolutionary leap forward in the human race. Our Union and what it stood for became a light and an inspiration for dozens of countries and countless millions of people all across the globe.

Faced with an irresolvable problem (and oh had they tried) stemming from a mistake, a flaw, an essential contradiction that was overlooked, avoided, or irrationally justified in our newborn Union and allowed to fester until it grew into an ugly, weeping tumor, we were forced to bend our principles near the breaking point in order to save the patient. That patient was and is bigger than any one or any million of us because it stands for something irreplacable for all human beings at all times. Post surgical recovery has been slow, and the patient will never be perfect, but was it worth the operation? Damn right it was. Even if the patient hadn't pulled through it would have been worth the effort to excise that tumor.

Ah, yes, the Glorious Union, STILL held together by brute force or the threat of it, as so wonderfully exhibited by the remarks of your Yankee compatriots here. That same union, which enshrines in a temple on the Potomac one of the bloodiest, most vicious and brutal tyrants and dictators to ever disgrace the human race! Why don't you put your faith where your mouths are, and let us have an honest vote on whether to peacefully separate ourselves from your Grand Experiment (or is it EMPIRE, now?), and agree to abide by the result?

 

[Unkotare]

The US has been bogged down in 3 guerilla wars in Vietnam,Afghanistan,Iraq and got its ass kicked.

"Got its ass kicked"? What bizarro world do you live in anyway?

Vietnam 10 years? 58k killed we finally pulled out and North Vietnam and South Vietnam were united.

Iraq going on 10 years as well finally pulled out after killing hundreds of thousands of civilians and being bogged down in an unpopular war at home.

Afghanistan 11 years damn near supposedly taliban is out of power and bin laden is dead yet we are still losing soldiers...

I don't have anything to justify to your pea brain so either do some fucking research or just fuck off.

Domestic political quarreling and irresolute or opportunistic political leaders do NOT in any way equate to getting our "ass kicked" you moron. The US did not (has not) lost one major battle in any of those wars. It says everything about you that you WANT to believe the US "got its ass kicked," you scum.

 

[GuyPinestra]

I disagree but it is not important.

The issue was not economics to Lincoln, only perpetual Union, and AL was not going to let the the southern states leave.

The south still would have been dependent on northern mercantile and manufacturing interests. It's "free" trade would not have been free at all. Lincoln, I think, saw it simply as part of obeying constitutional and electoral process and not seizing federal property and promising to keep slavery out of the territories.

The south had no intention of doing any of that by 1861.

If that were true the north wouldn't need protectionism to prop up their industry.

Even though they had that right? Rather tyrannical, don't you think?

 

[Unkotare]

Why?

It's not just any union.

"America is God's crucible, the great Melting-Pot where all the races of Europe are melting and reforming!... The real American has not yet arrived. He is only in the crucible, I tell you - he will be the fusion of all races." ~Israel Zangwill

"When an American says that he loves his country, he means not only that he loves the New England hills, the prairies glistening in the sun, the wide and rising plains, the great mountains, and the sea. He means that he loves an inner air, an inner light in which freedom lives and in which a man can draw the breath of self-respect." ~Adlai Stevenson

"We dare not forget that we are the heirs of that first revolution." ~John F. Kennedy

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." ~Abraham Lincoln

"My favorite thing about the United States? Lots of Americans, one America." ~Val Saintsbury


"Of all the supervised conditions for life offered man, those under U S A's constitution have proved the best. Wherefore, be sure when you start modifying, corrupting or abrogating it." ~Martin H. Fischer


"Ours is the only country deliberately founded on a good idea." ~John Gunther


"America is much more than a geographical fact. It is a political and moral fact - the first community in which men set out in principle to institutionalize freedom, responsible government, and human equality." ~Adlai Stevenson


"America did not invent human rights. In a very real sense... human rights invented America." ~Jimmy Carter


"We're Americans - with a capital A! And do you know what that means? Do you? It means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world." ~From the movie Stripes


"The American Revolution was a beginning, not a consummation." ~Woodrow Wilson


"It predominates over the whole of society in America—Application made of this principle by the Americans even before their Revolution—Development given to it by that Revolution—Gradual and irresistible extension of the elective qualification.

The Principle Of The Sovereignty Of The People In America" ~ Alexis de Tocqueville



Preserving the Union was much, much more than would be simply binding the territories of any other nation that existed at the time. The United States - The Great Experiment - was an evolutionary leap forward in the human race. Our Union and what it stood for became a light and an inspiration for dozens of countries and countless millions of people all across the globe.

Faced with an irresolvable problem (and oh had they tried) stemming from a mistake, a flaw, an essential contradiction that was overlooked, avoided, or irrationally justified in our newborn Union and allowed to fester until it grew into an ugly, weeping tumor, we were forced to bend our principles near the breaking point in order to save the patient. That patient was and is bigger than any one or any million of us because it stands for something irreplacable for all human beings at all times. Post surgical recovery has been slow, and the patient will never be perfect, but was it worth the operation? Damn right it was. Even if the patient hadn't pulled through it would have been worth the effort to excise that tumor.

Ah, yes, the Glorious Union, STILL held together by brute force or the threat of it, as so wonderfully exhibited by the remarks of your Yankee compatriots here. That same union, which enshrines in a temple on the Potomac one of the bloodiest, most vicious and brutal tyrants and dictators to ever disgrace the human race! Why don't you put your faith where your mouths are, and let us have an honest vote on whether to peacefully separate ourselves from your Grand Experiment (or is it EMPIRE, now?), and agree to abide by the result?

The Confederacy LOST. Get over it. Or not, I don't care, just STFU. If you don't want to be part of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, then go, get the fuck out. Make a raft out of your reenactment gear and float down to Ecuador or something. We don't need you and your bitter hatred and hyperbole here in my country - in any part of my country.

 

[GuyPinestra]

It's not just any union.

"America is God's crucible, the great Melting-Pot where all the races of Europe are melting and reforming!... The real American has not yet arrived. He is only in the crucible, I tell you - he will be the fusion of all races." ~Israel Zangwill

"When an American says that he loves his country, he means not only that he loves the New England hills, the prairies glistening in the sun, the wide and rising plains, the great mountains, and the sea. He means that he loves an inner air, an inner light in which freedom lives and in which a man can draw the breath of self-respect." ~Adlai Stevenson

"We dare not forget that we are the heirs of that first revolution." ~John F. Kennedy

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." ~Abraham Lincoln

"My favorite thing about the United States? Lots of Americans, one America." ~Val Saintsbury


"Of all the supervised conditions for life offered man, those under U S A's constitution have proved the best. Wherefore, be sure when you start modifying, corrupting or abrogating it." ~Martin H. Fischer


"Ours is the only country deliberately founded on a good idea." ~John Gunther


"America is much more than a geographical fact. It is a political and moral fact - the first community in which men set out in principle to institutionalize freedom, responsible government, and human equality." ~Adlai Stevenson


"America did not invent human rights. In a very real sense... human rights invented America." ~Jimmy Carter


"We're Americans - with a capital A! And do you know what that means? Do you? It means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world." ~From the movie Stripes


"The American Revolution was a beginning, not a consummation." ~Woodrow Wilson


"It predominates over the whole of society in America—Application made of this principle by the Americans even before their Revolution—Development given to it by that Revolution—Gradual and irresistible extension of the elective qualification.

The Principle Of The Sovereignty Of The People In America" ~ Alexis de Tocqueville



Preserving the Union was much, much more than would be simply binding the territories of any other nation that existed at the time. The United States - The Great Experiment - was an evolutionary leap forward in the human race. Our Union and what it stood for became a light and an inspiration for dozens of countries and countless millions of people all across the globe.

Faced with an irresolvable problem (and oh had they tried) stemming from a mistake, a flaw, an essential contradiction that was overlooked, avoided, or irrationally justified in our newborn Union and allowed to fester until it grew into an ugly, weeping tumor, we were forced to bend our principles near the breaking point in order to save the patient. That patient was and is bigger than any one or any million of us because it stands for something irreplacable for all human beings at all times. Post surgical recovery has been slow, and the patient will never be perfect, but was it worth the operation? Damn right it was. Even if the patient hadn't pulled through it would have been worth the effort to excise that tumor.

Ah, yes, the Glorious Union, STILL held together by brute force or the threat of it, as so wonderfully exhibited by the remarks of your Yankee compatriots here. That same union, which enshrines in a temple on the Potomac one of the bloodiest, most vicious and brutal tyrants and dictators to ever disgrace the human race! Why don't you put your faith where your mouths are, and let us have an honest vote on whether to peacefully separate ourselves from your Grand Experiment (or is it EMPIRE, now?), and agree to abide by the result?

The Confederacy LOST. Get over it. Or not, I don't care, just STFU. If you don't want to be part of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, then go, get the fuck out. Make a raft out of your reenactment gear and float down to Ecuador or something. We don't need you and your bitter hatred and hyperbole here in my country - in any part of my country.

You call this shit "United"?

 

[The Gadfly]

It's not just any union.

"America is God's crucible, the great Melting-Pot where all the races of Europe are melting and reforming!... The real American has not yet arrived. He is only in the crucible, I tell you - he will be the fusion of all races." ~Israel Zangwill

"When an American says that he loves his country, he means not only that he loves the New England hills, the prairies glistening in the sun, the wide and rising plains, the great mountains, and the sea. He means that he loves an inner air, an inner light in which freedom lives and in which a man can draw the breath of self-respect." ~Adlai Stevenson

"We dare not forget that we are the heirs of that first revolution." ~John F. Kennedy

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." ~Abraham Lincoln

"My favorite thing about the United States? Lots of Americans, one America." ~Val Saintsbury


"Of all the supervised conditions for life offered man, those under U S A's constitution have proved the best. Wherefore, be sure when you start modifying, corrupting or abrogating it." ~Martin H. Fischer


"Ours is the only country deliberately founded on a good idea." ~John Gunther


"America is much more than a geographical fact. It is a political and moral fact - the first community in which men set out in principle to institutionalize freedom, responsible government, and human equality." ~Adlai Stevenson


"America did not invent human rights. In a very real sense... human rights invented America." ~Jimmy Carter


"We're Americans - with a capital A! And do you know what that means? Do you? It means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world." ~From the movie Stripes


"The American Revolution was a beginning, not a consummation." ~Woodrow Wilson


"It predominates over the whole of society in America—Application made of this principle by the Americans even before their Revolution—Development given to it by that Revolution—Gradual and irresistible extension of the elective qualification.

The Principle Of The Sovereignty Of The People In America" ~ Alexis de Tocqueville



Preserving the Union was much, much more than would be simply binding the territories of any other nation that existed at the time. The United States - The Great Experiment - was an evolutionary leap forward in the human race. Our Union and what it stood for became a light and an inspiration for dozens of countries and countless millions of people all across the globe.

Faced with an irresolvable problem (and oh had they tried) stemming from a mistake, a flaw, an essential contradiction that was overlooked, avoided, or irrationally justified in our newborn Union and allowed to fester until it grew into an ugly, weeping tumor, we were forced to bend our principles near the breaking point in order to save the patient. That patient was and is bigger than any one or any million of us because it stands for something irreplacable for all human beings at all times. Post surgical recovery has been slow, and the patient will never be perfect, but was it worth the operation? Damn right it was. Even if the patient hadn't pulled through it would have been worth the effort to excise that tumor.

Ah, yes, the Glorious Union, STILL held together by brute force or the threat of it, as so wonderfully exhibited by the remarks of your Yankee compatriots here. That same union, which enshrines in a temple on the Potomac one of the bloodiest, most vicious and brutal tyrants and dictators to ever disgrace the human race! Why don't you put your faith where your mouths are, and let us have an honest vote on whether to peacefully separate ourselves from your Grand Experiment (or is it EMPIRE, now?), and agree to abide by the result?

The Confederacy LOST. Get over it. Or not, I don't care, just STFU. If you don't want to be part of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, then go, get the fuck out. Make a raft out of your reenactment gear and float down to Ecuador or something. We don't need you and your bitter hatred and hyperbole here in my country - in any part of my country.

Yeah, you believe in "freedom and the right of self-determination" for everyone in the world except Southern Americans whose territory you STILL occupy, by force. Damn Yankee hypocrites! What's the matter? Afraid we'd vote to leave, and show the world what you REALLY are? BTW, I don't need you, and your Yankee jackboots in any part of MY country (anfd MY ancestors were here, long before the FIRST Yankee ever set foot on Southern soil.

 

[Unkotare]

Ah, yes, the Glorious Union, STILL held together by brute force or the threat of it, as so wonderfully exhibited by the remarks of your Yankee compatriots here. That same union, which enshrines in a temple on the Potomac one of the bloodiest, most vicious and brutal tyrants and dictators to ever disgrace the human race! Why don't you put your faith where your mouths are, and let us have an honest vote on whether to peacefully separate ourselves from your Grand Experiment (or is it EMPIRE, now?), and agree to abide by the result?

The Confederacy LOST. Get over it. Or not, I don't care, just STFU. If you don't want to be part of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, then go, get the fuck out. Make a raft out of your reenactment gear and float down to Ecuador or something. We don't need you and your bitter hatred and hyperbole here in my country - in any part of my country.

You call this shit "United"?

Yes. Now get the fuck out; you're in the way, loser.

 

[Unkotare]

Ah, yes, the Glorious Union, STILL held together by brute force or the threat of it, as so wonderfully exhibited by the remarks of your Yankee compatriots here. That same union, which enshrines in a temple on the Potomac one of the bloodiest, most vicious and brutal tyrants and dictators to ever disgrace the human race! Why don't you put your faith where your mouths are, and let us have an honest vote on whether to peacefully separate ourselves from your Grand Experiment (or is it EMPIRE, now?), and agree to abide by the result?

The Confederacy LOST. Get over it. Or not, I don't care, just STFU. If you don't want to be part of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, then go, get the fuck out. Make a raft out of your reenactment gear and float down to Ecuador or something. We don't need you and your bitter hatred and hyperbole here in my country - in any part of my country.

Yeah, you believe in "freedom and the right of self-determination" for everyone in the world except Southern Americans whose territory you STILL occupy, by force. Damn Yankee hypocrites! What's the matter? Afraid we'd vote to leave, and show the world what you REALLY are? BTW, I don't need you, and your Yankee jackboots in any part of MY country (anfd MY ancestors were here, long before the FIRST Yankee ever set foot on Southern soil.

The United States is ONE nation, you little worm. If YOU, as one worhtless, bitter, pathetic loser don't want to be here then get the FUCK out of my ONE nation, you little nobody. Look left, look right; at your neighbors, your coworkers, the people on the bus and in the store. They are all Americans and I count them as my brothers and sisters if they are in or from Alaska, Maine, Florida, Virginia, Texas, California, Hawaii, Alabama, Wisconsin, or any other corner of my ONE nation. And they are all worth immeasurably more than any unamerican scum like you. Don't kid yourself that your personal weakness is limited to being a traitorous AMERICAN. Your fundamental lack of character shows what an empty failure of a human being you are and will always be. You don't deserve to be anywhere or part of anything, most especially my ONE nation. If you had one shred of the courage of your convictions you'd do something about all your vulgar talk. We both know you won't because you'd be squashed like the little bug you are and you are too much of a coward personally to find out. If you don't like AMERICA, take your stupid fucking act on the road, loser.

 

[bripat9643]

What did we gain from the war except a huge leviathan government and a legacy of bitterness, hatred and racism?

The war could easily have been prevented if the Northern carpetbagger party hadn't won the presidency. Lincoln was determined to wage war on the South.

I think it was worth it, but I doubt that the war could have been prevented, either, with the defeat of Clay in 1844. 2 million casualties, 600000 (at least) dead, and maybe a 100000 more civilians dead.

I disagree but it is not important.

The issue was not economics to Lincoln, only perpetual Union, and AL was not going to let the the southern states leave.

I agree, but was unity worth 600,000 dead? Or was it 600,000 casualties?

 

[bripat9643]

The south still would have been dependent on northern mercantile and manufacturing interests. It's "free" trade would not have been free at all. Lincoln, I think, saw it simply as part of obeying constitutional and electoral process and not seizing federal property and promising to keep slavery out of the territories.

The south had no intention of doing any of that by 1861.

Horseshit. The South could buy whatever it needed from Europe. The whole point of the Tariff of Abominations was to force the Southern states to purchase from the Northern carpet baggers.

Lincoln wiped his ass on the Constitution. The idea that he gave a rats ass about obeying it is utterly hysterical. Do you know anything about Lincoln or the Civil War at all?

 

[bripat9643]

There was no "southern" land, only the United States.

The traitors could not accept constitutional, electoral process, rose up, and were crushed like the vermin they were.

The Southern states existed before the United States, dipshit.

 

[bripat9643]

The southern states seized federal property.

It was in the territory of South Carolina. Do you think if the U.S. government owned some property in Venezuela and the government of Venezuela sized it that Obama would have the right to send in the bombers?

The union army invaded nothing, simply reacquired constitutional, electoral control of the dumbos at the point of a bayonet. What a bunch of idiots.

Lincoln had no constitutional authority to raise an army without the authorization of Congress and send it into any state of the union to attack the citizens of that state.