New t.v. show idea to teach lefties...trading places for CEOs and low level workers....

[2aguy]

You do realize those people are complaining about the pay of the CEO's of massive companies, do you know what the CEO of walmart makes?

You are compensated for your strengths. The free market dictates salary. Success dictates monetary compensation. Without money, how do you attract the best??

People are not just complaining about CEO pay, they are complaining that their pay is steadily increasing while employees' pay stays the same or even getting laid off to pay for that CEO. It's the best example that trickle down does not work as advertised.

I don't agree with that. There will always be a bottom line that a company has to keep. If a CEO is able to make necessary cuts to maintain success, why shouldn't he? You forget that it is a free marketplace that creates competition that discourages unethical business. Not to mention the power of the consumer. What is the problem? A company lays off employees for no good reason...buy from somewhere else!

Don't gloss over the problem, working class wages are flat while upper tax brackets are experiencing unprecedented income growth. Trickle down does not work as advertised but it damned sure works as intended, getting poor conservatives to close ranks around the wealthy because they think their livelihoods depend on it.

Trickle down....you mean keeping taxes low and government small so that poor people can start their own businesses without the government crushing them before they even open their doors......

 

[2aguy]

Check out the video in my signature, but I'll try to sum it up:
- The stagnant wages of the working class, the constant overproduction of goods, waste of surplus/destruction of the environment, rampant agitation of the lower classes... Many more detailed reasons, the video helps explain this.

I don't buy it, but please share with me a solution to these issues...in your own words. No links...just why you hold these ideals.

My solution? Revolution of the working class, government control by the workers, and, eventually, dissolution of the state. I should also mention that the capitalists will no longer be able to exploit others. You don't buy it? Have you seen the wasted food that is produced, despite hundreds of millions in hunger? I began to consider myself a marxist several years ago, after considering myself a socialist for quite some time, always following the bullshit about communism being a dictatorship by definition, blah blah.. Met a buddy who happened to be a communist, really opened me eyes, began to read literature from marx/engels and other marxists, started studying the history of the struggle of workers, marxist-leninist states, the lives of inspirational leaders such as lenin and mao, and it went from there. You can see the capitalist destruction of the environment on your own, that's a no brainer. The lower classes have historically been getting enraged throughout history when capitalist exploitation gets to a horrid point, it's happening again, especially in the third world/china, where many are considering themselves Maoist's. (yay)

Marxism is a pipedream that flies in the face of human nature, just like the free market dogma that conservatives espouse. Both require humans to be at their most honest at the moment when it is in their best interests to lie and cheat.

You observe 'human nature' under capitalism and assume that is human nature. Come on man.

Sorry to burst your bubble but large groups of humans stubbornly refuse to live under anything but a hierarchy and the people on top steal from the rest, it has been the same under any system larger than a village that has ever been formed. The best system is one that still serves self-interest but does not allow things to get so far out of balance that an untouchable aristocracy forms.

And that is exactly why I like free market Capitalism.......

 

[2aguy]

I don't agree with that. There will always be a bottom line that a company has to keep. If a CEO is able to make necessary cuts to maintain success, why shouldn't he? You forget that it is a free marketplace that creates competition that discourages unethical business. Not to mention the power of the consumer. What is the problem? A company lays off employees for no good reason...buy from somewhere else!

Don't gloss over the problem, working class wages are flat while upper tax brackets are experiencing unprecedented income growth. Trickle down does not work as advertised but it damned sure works as intended, getting poor conservatives to close ranks around the wealthy because they think their livelihoods depend on it.

It hasn't trickled down all of the way, yet. Why would you not compensate the leaders of your company first? Why wouldn't you provide bonuses to those who pulled your business through a recession/

It hasn't trickled down all the way yet? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. POST OF THE YEAR BOYS AND GIRLS, POST OF THE FUCKING YEAR. It's been trickling up quite well, should we keep giving them tax breaks? Why would you not? They are greedy, can care less about ruining the lives of thousands of workers, exploiting third world countries, they want to protect their mansion, and let's keep this to the top paid CEO'S worldwide who actively encourage the horrid exploitation.

We can agree to disagree...we are pretty much on opposite sides of the spectrum.

If you ever decide to start a business...I know an illiterate drug addict teaper....let him be your CEO since all people have equal worth.

Great way to lack basic understanding of what I'm referring to as worth, since I view all actual jobs that benefit others as having equal worth.

there is no such thing as equal worth......that is a delusion

 

[Marxist]

I'm basing this on my personal observations and looking at history, I can see workers disrest and riots throughout various exploited countries throughout the world.

and those countries are run the way you guys want them run....top down.....

Which countries?

 

[JoshuaZ]

I thought about this because of another thread bitching about CEO pay......so here is my idea....like Under Cover Boss....but this would actually teach a lesson...

The idea is this....take a CEO and the lowest level worker.....and have them switch places for a week.....say the CEO of Wal Mart and a guy stocking shelves....they would each do the others job for a week and then we would see which transition was more difficult......

Perhaps....just perhaps, one or two lefties would see that just because the CEO sits behind a desk doean't mean they aren't doing massively important work...and that you just can't get in that chair by accident.....

or...how about the Manager of a Wal Mart....put him behind the register or stocking shelves, and take those individuals and put them in charge of the entire store for a week....see how that goes.....

This isn't what people concerned about the pay disparity are arguing. This is a strawman. The argument isn't that the jobs are identical or that the two people could be swapped. The argument is that executive pay is disproportionate with how much work they are doing and its difficulty compared to the work done by the lower level workers. Considering that the ratio of CEO/worker pay was much lower historically than it is now, that's not an unreasonable argument.

Yes...it is an unreasonable argument.....the company like a sports team assesses the value of the CEO candidate......and they pay what they have to to get the one they think is the best.....in a highly competitive world that means a lot of money...just like in pro sports...sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't....and the work at that level is magnitudes tougher than the stocker or the checker or the floor manager....you just don't see it....and hence...as a lefty, if you don't see it it doesn't exist.....

This argument has a lot of problems. Executive pay is often determined by the board members who are often friends with the executive in question, or are themselves executives of other companies where the other executives sit on the board. So we don't have an efficient market operating here. And that's even more a problem because companies don't immediately die when one is better than another, and the trend has been to reduce stockholder power. Ironically much of the left doesn't seem to be very in favor of giving stockholders more say in how companies are run, but it is one of the most likely effectively methods of keeping executive pay at reasonable levels.

I'm curious, how do you explain the growth in the last 40 years of the ratio of executive pay to lowest waged workers? Do you think executives are actually becoming worth more?

 

[2aguy]

Regretfully as long as free will exists...people will not have equal worth. I can provide too many examples as to why. So could you if you are honest.

People have this concept of "worth" under a capitalist system, a stateless, classless, moneyless society would make it hard for this concept to have bearing.

Yeah, I am a capitalist. The world is capitalist. You aren't gonna change that.

Capitalism is constantly contradicting itself, and has already begun it's own destruction, mainly due to rampant capitalists. The lower classes are getting more and more agitated, we've had revolutions in the past over capitalism, it will happen again.

How long has capitalism existed. When did the downfall begin. How do you define the downfall. Are your ideals unique or do others thnk as you do?

Check out the video in my signature, but I'll try to sum it up:
- The stagnant wages of the working class, the constant overproduction of goods, waste of surplus/destruction of the environment, rampant agitation of the lower classes... Many more detailed reasons, the video helps explain this.

Wealthy capitalist countries have cleaner environments than you borg collectivist countries do......because people with money like green stuff, and animals.......the borg collective you worship grinds people down even faster...check out the Chinese pollution sometime...check out Russian environmentalism.......

 

[Marxist]

Don't gloss over the problem, working class wages are flat while upper tax brackets are experiencing unprecedented income growth. Trickle down does not work as advertised but it damned sure works as intended, getting poor conservatives to close ranks around the wealthy because they think their livelihoods depend on it.

It hasn't trickled down all of the way, yet. Why would you not compensate the leaders of your company first? Why wouldn't you provide bonuses to those who pulled your business through a recession/

It hasn't trickled down all the way yet? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. POST OF THE YEAR BOYS AND GIRLS, POST OF THE FUCKING YEAR. It's been trickling up quite well, should we keep giving them tax breaks? Why would you not? They are greedy, can care less about ruining the lives of thousands of workers, exploiting third world countries, they want to protect their mansion, and let's keep this to the top paid CEO'S worldwide who actively encourage the horrid exploitation.

We can agree to disagree...we are pretty much on opposite sides of the spectrum.

If you ever decide to start a business...I know an illiterate drug addict teaper....let him be your CEO since all people have equal worth.

Great way to lack basic understanding of what I'm referring to as worth, since I view all actual jobs that benefit others as having equal worth.

there is no such thing as equal worth......that is a delusion

Under capitalism, there can never be.

 

[2aguy]

I'm basing this on my personal observations and looking at history, I can see workers disrest and riots throughout various exploited countries throughout the world.

and those countries are run the way you guys want them run....top down.....

Which countries?

Russia, China, Cuba......venezuela, chile....kind of funny when they can't even supply toilet paper........

 

[2aguy]

It hasn't trickled down all of the way, yet. Why would you not compensate the leaders of your company first? Why wouldn't you provide bonuses to those who pulled your business through a recession/

It hasn't trickled down all the way yet? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. POST OF THE YEAR BOYS AND GIRLS, POST OF THE FUCKING YEAR. It's been trickling up quite well, should we keep giving them tax breaks? Why would you not? They are greedy, can care less about ruining the lives of thousands of workers, exploiting third world countries, they want to protect their mansion, and let's keep this to the top paid CEO'S worldwide who actively encourage the horrid exploitation.

We can agree to disagree...we are pretty much on opposite sides of the spectrum.

If you ever decide to start a business...I know an illiterate drug addict teaper....let him be your CEO since all people have equal worth.

Great way to lack basic understanding of what I'm referring to as worth, since I view all actual jobs that benefit others as having equal worth.

there is no such thing as equal worth......that is a delusion

Under capitalism, there can never be.

And under the statism you worship there is equal space in the mass grave.........

 

[Marxist]

People have this concept of "worth" under a capitalist system, a stateless, classless, moneyless society would make it hard for this concept to have bearing.

Yeah, I am a capitalist. The world is capitalist. You aren't gonna change that.

Capitalism is constantly contradicting itself, and has already begun it's own destruction, mainly due to rampant capitalists. The lower classes are getting more and more agitated, we've had revolutions in the past over capitalism, it will happen again.

How long has capitalism existed. When did the downfall begin. How do you define the downfall. Are your ideals unique or do others thnk as you do?

Check out the video in my signature, but I'll try to sum it up:
- The stagnant wages of the working class, the constant overproduction of goods, waste of surplus/destruction of the environment, rampant agitation of the lower classes... Many more detailed reasons, the video helps explain this.

Wealthy capitalist countries have cleaner environments than you borg collectivist countries do......because people with money like green stuff, and animals.......the borg collective you worship grinds people down even faster...check out the Chinese pollution sometime...check out Russian environmentalism.......

Chinese pollution is done by capitalists there...

 

[Marxist]

It hasn't trickled down all the way yet? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. POST OF THE YEAR BOYS AND GIRLS, POST OF THE FUCKING YEAR. It's been trickling up quite well, should we keep giving them tax breaks? Why would you not? They are greedy, can care less about ruining the lives of thousands of workers, exploiting third world countries, they want to protect their mansion, and let's keep this to the top paid CEO'S worldwide who actively encourage the horrid exploitation.

We can agree to disagree...we are pretty much on opposite sides of the spectrum.

If you ever decide to start a business...I know an illiterate drug addict teaper....let him be your CEO since all people have equal worth.

Great way to lack basic understanding of what I'm referring to as worth, since I view all actual jobs that benefit others as having equal worth.

there is no such thing as equal worth......that is a delusion

Under capitalism, there can never be.

And under the statism you worship there is equal space in the mass grave.........

I want to abolish the fucking state, jesus.

 

[KGB]

Yeah, I am a capitalist. The world is capitalist. You aren't gonna change that.

Capitalism is constantly contradicting itself, and has already begun it's own destruction, mainly due to rampant capitalists. The lower classes are getting more and more agitated, we've had revolutions in the past over capitalism, it will happen again.

How long has capitalism existed. When did the downfall begin. How do you define the downfall. Are your ideals unique or do others thnk as you do?

Check out the video in my signature, but I'll try to sum it up:
- The stagnant wages of the working class, the constant overproduction of goods, waste of surplus/destruction of the environment, rampant agitation of the lower classes... Many more detailed reasons, the video helps explain this.

I don't buy it, but please share with me a solution to these issues...in your own words. No links...just why you hold these ideals.

My solution? Revolution of the working class, government control by the workers, and, eventually, dissolution of the state. I should also mention that the capitalists will no longer be able to exploit others. You don't buy it? Have you seen the wasted food that is produced, despite hundreds of millions in hunger? I began to consider myself a marxist several years ago, after considering myself a socialist for quite some time, always following the bullshit about communism being a dictatorship by definition, blah blah.. Met a buddy who happened to be a communist, really opened me eyes, began to read literature from marx/engels and other marxists, started studying the history of the struggle of workers, marxist-leninist states, the lives of inspirational leaders such as lenin and mao, and it went from there. You can see the capitalist destruction of the environment on your own, that's a no brainer. The lower classes have historically been getting enraged throughout history when capitalist exploitation gets to a horrid point, it's happening again, especially in the third world/china, where many are considering themselves Maoist's. (yay)

I too have read those books & studied those states. My major in college was Russian/Soviet Studies. Read the ABC of Communism, The Communist Manifesto, the Trotsky Papers, etc. They were all lies. Lenin/Stalin/Mao/the Kims all coveted one thing & one thing only....power. Hell, the Bolsheviks silenced the Mensheviks & the Trotskyists much like that little twerp in North Korea does. You should read the story of Viktor Sheymov (Tower of Secrets) who was a high ranking KGB officer who defected to the US in 1979/1980. Here was a man who was on the fast track & upon studying the true history of communism from Lenin's time (ironically enough, this was considered suspicious behavior in the Soviet Union), realized he was part of a truly demonic system. The country turned into a massive concentration camp with political prisoners brain washed. This pretty much describes every communist state in the world.

 

[2aguy]

I thought about this because of another thread bitching about CEO pay......so here is my idea....like Under Cover Boss....but this would actually teach a lesson...

The idea is this....take a CEO and the lowest level worker.....and have them switch places for a week.....say the CEO of Wal Mart and a guy stocking shelves....they would each do the others job for a week and then we would see which transition was more difficult......

Perhaps....just perhaps, one or two lefties would see that just because the CEO sits behind a desk doean't mean they aren't doing massively important work...and that you just can't get in that chair by accident.....

or...how about the Manager of a Wal Mart....put him behind the register or stocking shelves, and take those individuals and put them in charge of the entire store for a week....see how that goes.....

This isn't what people concerned about the pay disparity are arguing. This is a strawman. The argument isn't that the jobs are identical or that the two people could be swapped. The argument is that executive pay is disproportionate with how much work they are doing and its difficulty compared to the work done by the lower level workers. Considering that the ratio of CEO/worker pay was much lower historically than it is now, that's not an unreasonable argument.

Yes...it is an unreasonable argument.....the company like a sports team assesses the value of the CEO candidate......and they pay what they have to to get the one they think is the best.....in a highly competitive world that means a lot of money...just like in pro sports...sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't....and the work at that level is magnitudes tougher than the stocker or the checker or the floor manager....you just don't see it....and hence...as a lefty, if you don't see it it doesn't exist.....

This argument has a lot of problems. Executive pay is often determined by the board members who are often friends with the executive in question, or are themselves executives of other companies where the other executives sit on the board. So we don't have an efficient market operating here. And that's even more a problem because companies don't immediately die when one is better than another, and the trend has been to reduce stockholder power. Ironically much of the left doesn't seem to be very in favor of giving stockholders more say in how companies are run, but it is one of the most likely effectively methods of keeping executive pay at reasonable levels.

I'm curious, how do you explain the growth in the last 40 years of the ratio of executive pay to lowest waged workers? Do you think executives are actually becoming worth more?

No.....but it is more competitive....no different than sports.....do you think a quarter back is worth the money they pay them? same thing....

 

[Marxist]

I'm basing this on my personal observations and looking at history, I can see workers disrest and riots throughout various exploited countries throughout the world.

and those countries are run the way you guys want them run....top down.....

Which countries?

Russia, China, Cuba......venezuela, chile....kind of funny when they can't even supply toilet paper........

I'm pretty sure you're talking about venezuela..

 

[2aguy]

Capitalism is constantly contradicting itself, and has already begun it's own destruction, mainly due to rampant capitalists. The lower classes are getting more and more agitated, we've had revolutions in the past over capitalism, it will happen again.

How long has capitalism existed. When did the downfall begin. How do you define the downfall. Are your ideals unique or do others thnk as you do?

Check out the video in my signature, but I'll try to sum it up:
- The stagnant wages of the working class, the constant overproduction of goods, waste of surplus/destruction of the environment, rampant agitation of the lower classes... Many more detailed reasons, the video helps explain this.

I don't buy it, but please share with me a solution to these issues...in your own words. No links...just why you hold these ideals.

My solution? Revolution of the working class, government control by the workers, and, eventually, dissolution of the state. I should also mention that the capitalists will no longer be able to exploit others. You don't buy it? Have you seen the wasted food that is produced, despite hundreds of millions in hunger? I began to consider myself a marxist several years ago, after considering myself a socialist for quite some time, always following the bullshit about communism being a dictatorship by definition, blah blah.. Met a buddy who happened to be a communist, really opened me eyes, began to read literature from marx/engels and other marxists, started studying the history of the struggle of workers, marxist-leninist states, the lives of inspirational leaders such as lenin and mao, and it went from there. You can see the capitalist destruction of the environment on your own, that's a no brainer. The lower classes have historically been getting enraged throughout history when capitalist exploitation gets to a horrid point, it's happening again, especially in the third world/china, where many are considering themselves Maoist's. (yay)

I too have read those books & studied those states. My major in college was Russian/Soviet Studies. Read the ABC of Communism, The Communist Manifesto, the Trotsky Papers, etc. They were all lies. Lenin/Stalin/Mao/the Kims all coveted one thing & one thing only....power. Hell, the Bolsheviks silenced the Mensheviks & the Trotskyists much like that little twerp in North Korea does. You should read the story of Viktor Sheymov (Tower of Secrets) who was a high ranking KGB officer who defected to the US in 1979/1980. Here was a man who was on the fast track & upon studying the true history of communism from Lenin's time (ironically enough, this was considered suspicious behavior in the Soviet Union), realized he was part of a truly demonic system. The country turned into a massive concentration camp with political prisoners brain washed. This pretty much describes every communist state in the world.

Seems like he would be right at home....until he was deemed unworthy....and they loaded him on the train.......

 

[Marxist]

Capitalism is constantly contradicting itself, and has already begun it's own destruction, mainly due to rampant capitalists. The lower classes are getting more and more agitated, we've had revolutions in the past over capitalism, it will happen again.

How long has capitalism existed. When did the downfall begin. How do you define the downfall. Are your ideals unique or do others thnk as you do?

Check out the video in my signature, but I'll try to sum it up:
- The stagnant wages of the working class, the constant overproduction of goods, waste of surplus/destruction of the environment, rampant agitation of the lower classes... Many more detailed reasons, the video helps explain this.

I don't buy it, but please share with me a solution to these issues...in your own words. No links...just why you hold these ideals.

My solution? Revolution of the working class, government control by the workers, and, eventually, dissolution of the state. I should also mention that the capitalists will no longer be able to exploit others. You don't buy it? Have you seen the wasted food that is produced, despite hundreds of millions in hunger? I began to consider myself a marxist several years ago, after considering myself a socialist for quite some time, always following the bullshit about communism being a dictatorship by definition, blah blah.. Met a buddy who happened to be a communist, really opened me eyes, began to read literature from marx/engels and other marxists, started studying the history of the struggle of workers, marxist-leninist states, the lives of inspirational leaders such as lenin and mao, and it went from there. You can see the capitalist destruction of the environment on your own, that's a no brainer. The lower classes have historically been getting enraged throughout history when capitalist exploitation gets to a horrid point, it's happening again, especially in the third world/china, where many are considering themselves Maoist's. (yay)

I too have read those books & studied those states. My major in college was Russian/Soviet Studies. Read the ABC of Communism, The Communist Manifesto, the Trotsky Papers, etc. They were all lies. Lenin/Stalin/Mao/the Kims all coveted one thing & one thing only....power. Hell, the Bolsheviks silenced the Mensheviks & the Trotskyists much like that little twerp in North Korea does. You should read the story of Viktor Sheymov (Tower of Secrets) who was a high ranking KGB officer who defected to the US in 1979/1980. Here was a man who was on the fast track & upon studying the true history of communism from Lenin's time (ironically enough, this was considered suspicious behavior in the Soviet Union), realized he was part of a truly demonic system. The country turned into a massive concentration camp with political prisoners brain washed. This pretty much describes every communist state in the world.

In other words,

 

[occupied]

I don't buy it, but please share with me a solution to these issues...in your own words. No links...just why you hold these ideals.

My solution? Revolution of the working class, government control by the workers, and, eventually, dissolution of the state. I should also mention that the capitalists will no longer be able to exploit others. You don't buy it? Have you seen the wasted food that is produced, despite hundreds of millions in hunger? I began to consider myself a marxist several years ago, after considering myself a socialist for quite some time, always following the bullshit about communism being a dictatorship by definition, blah blah.. Met a buddy who happened to be a communist, really opened me eyes, began to read literature from marx/engels and other marxists, started studying the history of the struggle of workers, marxist-leninist states, the lives of inspirational leaders such as lenin and mao, and it went from there. You can see the capitalist destruction of the environment on your own, that's a no brainer. The lower classes have historically been getting enraged throughout history when capitalist exploitation gets to a horrid point, it's happening again, especially in the third world/china, where many are considering themselves Maoist's. (yay)

Marxism is a pipedream that flies in the face of human nature, just like the free market dogma that conservatives espouse. Both require humans to be at their most honest at the moment when it is in their best interests to lie and cheat.

You observe 'human nature' under capitalism and assume that is human nature. Come on man.

Sorry to burst your bubble but large groups of humans stubbornly refuse to live under anything but a hierarchy and the people on top steal from the rest, it has been the same under any system larger than a village that has ever been formed. The best system is one that still serves self-interest but does not allow things to get so far out of balance that an untouchable aristocracy forms.

And that is exactly why I like free market Capitalism.......

You mean that shit we have now where the billionaires are free to buy our politicians and are practically impossible to charge with financial wrongdoing? No I am talking about a system where the economically powerful are held accountable for their actions such as a social democracy.

 

[2aguy]

Yeah, I am a capitalist. The world is capitalist. You aren't gonna change that.

Capitalism is constantly contradicting itself, and has already begun it's own destruction, mainly due to rampant capitalists. The lower classes are getting more and more agitated, we've had revolutions in the past over capitalism, it will happen again.

How long has capitalism existed. When did the downfall begin. How do you define the downfall. Are your ideals unique or do others thnk as you do?

Check out the video in my signature, but I'll try to sum it up:
- The stagnant wages of the working class, the constant overproduction of goods, waste of surplus/destruction of the environment, rampant agitation of the lower classes... Many more detailed reasons, the video helps explain this.

I don't buy it, but please share with me a solution to these issues...in your own words. No links...just why you hold these ideals.

My solution? Revolution of the working class, government control by the workers, and, eventually, dissolution of the state. I should also mention that the capitalists will no longer be able to exploit others. You don't buy it? Have you seen the wasted food that is produced, despite hundreds of millions in hunger? I began to consider myself a marxist several years ago, after considering myself a socialist for quite some time, always following the bullshit about communism being a dictatorship by definition, blah blah.. Met a buddy who happened to be a communist, really opened me eyes, began to read literature from marx/engels and other marxists, started studying the history of the struggle of workers, marxist-leninist states, the lives of inspirational leaders such as lenin and mao, and it went from there. You can see the capitalist destruction of the environment on your own, that's a no brainer. The lower classes have historically been getting enraged throughout history when capitalist exploitation gets to a horrid point, it's happening again, especially in the third world/china, where many are considering themselves Maoist's. (yay)

guy...you will never dissolve the state...why? at its most basic....people like to own their own stuff........it truly is as simple as that....and you can kill as many people who want to own stuff as you can....but you will never extinguish that desire....

And another thing....as you concentrate power in the hands of a few vicious thugs who have the strength and aggressiveness to launch your revolution of the worker.........they won't give up their fucking power......they never have, they never will.............and then you will have 2 classes...the leaders and the workers....and their existence will be 1000 times worse than it was as their country was becoming prosperous......

 

[2aguy]

My solution? Revolution of the working class, government control by the workers, and, eventually, dissolution of the state. I should also mention that the capitalists will no longer be able to exploit others. You don't buy it? Have you seen the wasted food that is produced, despite hundreds of millions in hunger? I began to consider myself a marxist several years ago, after considering myself a socialist for quite some time, always following the bullshit about communism being a dictatorship by definition, blah blah.. Met a buddy who happened to be a communist, really opened me eyes, began to read literature from marx/engels and other marxists, started studying the history of the struggle of workers, marxist-leninist states, the lives of inspirational leaders such as lenin and mao, and it went from there. You can see the capitalist destruction of the environment on your own, that's a no brainer. The lower classes have historically been getting enraged throughout history when capitalist exploitation gets to a horrid point, it's happening again, especially in the third world/china, where many are considering themselves Maoist's. (yay)

Marxism is a pipedream that flies in the face of human nature, just like the free market dogma that conservatives espouse. Both require humans to be at their most honest at the moment when it is in their best interests to lie and cheat.

You observe 'human nature' under capitalism and assume that is human nature. Come on man.

Sorry to burst your bubble but large groups of humans stubbornly refuse to live under anything but a hierarchy and the people on top steal from the rest, it has been the same under any system larger than a village that has ever been formed. The best system is one that still serves self-interest but does not allow things to get so far out of balance that an untouchable aristocracy forms.

And that is exactly why I like free market Capitalism.......

You mean that shit we have now where the billionaires are free to buy our politicians and are practically impossible to charge with financial wrongdoing? No I am talking about a system where the economically powerful are held accountable for their actions such as a social democracy.

Really...so you concentrate government power...and make it easier to be bought...and you expect things to be better....

The best way....take power away from the government....make taxes low on everyone...and then there is no reason or need to bribe the greedy corrupt politicians...only when they have power do they have something to sell.....

 

[occupied]

You do realize those people are complaining about the pay of the CEO's of massive companies, do you know what the CEO of walmart makes?

You are compensated for your strengths. The free market dictates salary. Success dictates monetary compensation. Without money, how do you attract the best??

People are not just complaining about CEO pay, they are complaining that their pay is steadily increasing while employees' pay stays the same or even getting laid off to pay for that CEO. It's the best example that trickle down does not work as advertised.

I don't agree with that. There will always be a bottom line that a company has to keep. If a CEO is able to make necessary cuts to maintain success, why shouldn't he? You forget that it is a free marketplace that creates competition that discourages unethical business. Not to mention the power of the consumer. What is the problem? A company lays off employees for no good reason...buy from somewhere else!

Don't gloss over the problem, working class wages are flat while upper tax brackets are experiencing unprecedented income growth. Trickle down does not work as advertised but it damned sure works as intended, getting poor conservatives to close ranks around the wealthy because they think their livelihoods depend on it.

Trickle down....you mean keeping taxes low and government small so that poor people can start their own businesses without the government crushing them before they even open their doors......

Last time I looked poor people starting businesses are not among the most highly paid individuals in the nation. Billionaires rigging the economy, manipulating the markets and engaging in uncompetitive practices have ruined more small businesses than anyone.