No Wonder Libs Are Upset - The Surge Is Working

[Annie]

according to Just War Theory, you don't start a war unless you know you can win, and know with certainty you can win very quickly, with overwhelming force if necessary, which would actually reduce casualties over the long term, and ''collateral'' damage too.

also, immediately following battle, borders are supposed to be secured for the safety of the citizens, and the occupiers are fully responsible for the safety and security of this nation's citizens and the occupiers are responsible for repairing their infrastructure...

so that THEIR lives after the war, are BETTER OFF than what they were before you went to war with them, to remove a despot.

otherwise, the war of choice that you started is considered an Unjust War.

There are a few other steps in Just War Theory that makes a war considered just, like....there can be NO MONETARY GAIN or any underlying gain for the aggressor...the occupier,

other than going to war with this despot, so that all the lives of the countrymen can be better than what they were with their despot/gvt...

and they must be better off, you must know that your plan for war will make these people immediately better off following the military action.

many of these steps seem rudimentary to me, simple steps to follow and contemplate before going in to a war of CHOICE.

so, although just a novice at best, when it comes to war, i don't understand what the heck this administration was thinking when it came to their decision to invade this sovereign country, and if they even once thought about just war theory?

the powell doctrine coincides with just war theory....they clearly did not follow his way of dealing with war.

care

Just War Theory, has nothing to do with the Powell Doctrine. Just War Theory is an religious philosophy or rather concept posited by Thomas Aquinas that has evolved over time-it's a religious concept.

http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/SS/SS040.html

http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/SS/SS040.html

 

[Annie]

I must admit that the argument "Hey, it's not as bloody as World War II" as some sort of a valid justification for the unnecessary, unwarranted, counter-productive carnage in Iraq does not impress me all that much.

I do not disagree. On the other hand arguing the idea of war is possible without casualties and guarantees of success is equally unwise.

 

[maineman]

I do not disagree. On the other hand arguing the idea of war is possible without casualties and guarantees of success is equally unwise.

I will go to my grave (hopefully not anytime soon) believing that the Iraq war was unnecessary. I completely support America's right to fight wars of necessity. I completely disagree with starting wars that are not necessary.

If a war is necessary, no number of casualties is too high....and if a war is unnecessary, any number of casualties is too many.

 

[Annie]

I will go to my grave (hopefully not anytime soon) believing that the Iraq war was unnecessary. I completely support America's right to fight wars of necessity. I completely disagree with starting wars that are not necessary.

If a war is necessary, no number of casualties is too high....and if a war is unnecessary, any number of casualties is too many.

I respect your pov. In all honesty, whoever wrote that we could have waited longer, had a better plan, had a valid argument. I think deposing Saddam was a good idea, though 'winning the people over to our side' is more important in the long run. I don't think Iraq is the cause of problems in the Middle East. The possibility of Iraq being less than hostile of the US in and of itself would make the venture viable.

 

[Care4all]

Just War Theory, has nothing to do with the Powell Doctrine. Just War Theory is an religious philosophy or rather concept posited by Thomas Aquinas that has evolved over time-it's a religious concept.

http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/SS/SS040.html

http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/SS/SS040.html

Yes Kathianne, there is a religious aspect to just war theory, but it does NOT stop there....

Just War Theory

Just-war theory deals with the justification of how and why wars are fought. The justification can be either theoretical or historical. The theoretical aspect is concerned with ethically justifying war and forms of warfare. The historical aspect, or the “just war tradition” deals with the historical body of rules or agreements applied (or at least existing) in various wars across the ages. For instance international agreements such as the Geneva and Hague conventions are historical rules aimed at limiting certain kinds of warfare. It is the role of ethics to examine these institutional agreements for their philosophical coherence as well as to inquire into whether aspects of the conventions ought to be changed.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/j/justwar.htm

The Powel Doctrine meets certain aspects of just war theory...

 

[red states rule]

Army anticipates intense resistance in Iraq's north
By Alister Bull
REUTERS NEWS AGENCY
June 23, 2007
BAQOUBA, Iraq — Thousands of U.S. soldiers on the offensive north of Baghdad are facing fierce resistance from hundreds of al Qaeda militants who are ready to fight to the death, a U.S. general said yesterday.

The militants are making their stand in and around the Iraq city of Baqouba, 40 miles north of Baghdad, where the U.S. military Tuesday launched one of its biggest operations since the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

"It is house to house, block to block, street to street, sewer to sewer," said Brig. Gen. Mick Bednarek, commander of Operation Arrowhead Ripper in Iraq's Diyala province.

Not far from Baqouba, U.S. attack helicopters killed 17 suspected al Qaeda gunmen on the outskirts of the town of Khalis early yesterday, the U.S. military said.

The military said those killed were armed and had been acting suspiciously around an Iraqi police patrol. That brings to 68 the number of militants killed so far in the operation

A top U.S. commander suggested it could be spring before Iraqi forces are ready to take responsibility for areas cleared by U.S. troops in Arrowhead Ripper and other operations taking place around Baghdad as part of a broader offensive.

"I think if everything goes the way it's going now, there's a potential that by the spring we would be able to reduce forces and Iraqi security forces could take over," Army Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno said.

Gen. Odierno, the top commander for day-to-day operations in Iraq, told Pentagon reporters by video link that Iraqi forces might be ready sooner, but it was hard to predict exactly when.


for the complete article
http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070623/FOREIGN/106230036/1001

 

[Annie]

Yes Kathianne, there is a religious aspect to just war theory, but it does NOT stop there....



The Powel Doctrine meets certain aspects of just war theory...

The historical part was also dealt with in the links, your original post though, mixed the Powell Doctrine in, which is wrong:

according to Just War Theory, you don't start a war unless you know you can win, and know with certainty you can win very quickly, with overwhelming force if necessary, which would actually reduce casualties over the long term, and ''collateral'' damage too.

also, immediately following battle, borders are supposed to be secured for the safety of the citizens, and the occupiers are fully responsible for the safety and security of this nation's citizens and the occupiers are responsible for repairing their infrastructure...

so that THEIR lives after the war, are BETTER OFF than what they were before you went to war with them, to remove a despot.

otherwise, the war of choice that you started is considered an Unjust War.

There are a few other steps in Just War Theory that makes a war considered just, like....there can be NO MONETARY GAIN or any underlying gain for the aggressor...the occupier,

other than going to war with this despot, so that all the lives of the countrymen can be better than what they were with their despot/gvt...

and they must be better off, you must know that your plan for war will make these people immediately better off following the military action.

many of these steps seem rudimentary to me, simple steps to follow and contemplate before going in to a war of CHOICE.

so, although just a novice at best, when it comes to war, i don't understand what the heck this administration was thinking when it came to their decision to invade this sovereign country, and if they even once thought about just war theory?

the powell doctrine coincides with just war theory....they clearly did not follow his way of dealing with war.

care

 

[Care4all]

The historical part was also dealt with in the links, your original post though, mixed the Powell Doctrine in, which is wrong:

you are right, the powell doctrine, the overwhelming force part, is considered not fitting in Just war, but i have read articles that suggest the overwhelming force, done quickly is just war.

i personally am not for any war, and even just war seems like a man made excuse to justify warring by giving it some moral standards...

i don't know if i posted this link yet, but it is a good read on this kathianne.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj0405&article=040520

ok, that link didn't work, so try this.

http://tinyurl.com/yufx6m

darnit! that doesn't work either....i never had to register to get the article? why is it making us now?

 

[Annie]

you are right, the powell doctrine, the overwhelming force part, is considered not fitting in Just war, but i have read articles that suggest the overwhelming force, done quickly is just war.

i personally am not for any war, and even just war seems like a man made excuse to justify warring by giving it some moral standards...

i don't know if i posted this link yet, but it is a good read on this kathianne.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj0405&article=040520

That was a good link. Here's another:

http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/justwar/

It's not what you might think, from me.

 

[Care4all]

That was a good link. Here's another:

http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/justwar/

It's not what you might think, from me.

oh good, the link was ok.

i am reading your link now, and yes, i am a little surprised, but not really...no one wants war...everyone is really happier when there isn't one...and you seem well read and catholic to me, so the link was a surprise, not because you have contemplated what it says because i believe you have, but surprised because you chose to share it with me.

ty

care

 

[red states rule]

Iraq assault kills 90 linked to al Qaeda
REUTERS NEWS AGENCY

BAQOUBA, Iraq — U.S. and Iraqi forces have killed 90 al Qaeda fighters across Baghdad in the past five days during one of the biggest combined offensives against the Sunni Islamist group since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, U.S. officials said yesterday.

U.S. air strikes yesterday killed seven fighters suspected of belonging to al Qaeda in Tikrit in Salahuddin province and near the city of Fallujah, west of Baghdad, the U.S. military said.

The U.S. military also announced yesterday that roadside bombs killed seven American troops in Iraq, including four in a single incident outside Baghdad.

U.S. and Iraqi security forces are on alert as an Iraqi court is scheduled to deliver its verdict today for six former high-ranking officials during Saddam Hussein's rule accused of leading a military campaign against ethnic Kurds in the 1980s that killed tens of thousands.

The most prominent defendant is Saddam's cousin Ali Hassan al-Majid, known as "Chemical Ali" for his reported use of poison gas against opponents. Charges against Saddam, originally the seventh defendant, lapsed when he was executed in December in a separate case.

Prosecutors are seeking the death penalty for al-Majid and four others, and the release of a sixth, the former governor of Mosul province in northern Iraq, for lack of evidence.

In the latest military action, thousands of U.S. and Iraqi soldiers are taking part in simultaneous offensives in provinces across Baghdad to deny al Qaeda militants sanctuary in farmlands and towns from which they launch car bomb attacks and other violence.

U.S. officials say al Qaeda is trying to spark all-out sectarian civil war in Iraq. A key plank of the combined offensives is Operation Arrowhead Ripper, which began Tuesday in and around the city of Baqouba in Diyala province.

for the complete article

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070624/FOREIGN/106240037/1001

 

[Creek_George]

I did not even bother reading though "all" the replies...to this post..SO FAR OFF BASE!

I admit I have a few replies in this original article.

You have headlines from a conservative respective..."US and Iraqi soldiers found 24 severely malnourished children in a Baghdad orphanage "...

That's the best news that came out of there(In 4 years)...at the same f_cking time 24 beheaded bodies are found.....And you tell me the "SURGE IS WORKING"?...Do you want me to use U.S. Casualties?...What kinda example do your kind need?

How many checkers you need to lose buddy?

You jumped the gun months even before this ..so called surge even took place.....and posted here..No wonder why the libs are pissed..the surge is working.....Hahahahaha..

I'm just siting here watching the wheels go round & round bro.

We should all pray...for what?...This was a mistake?..A war on terror?.....This was bad.....Some fu_ck heads knew this was gona happen.

This war..is also showing us..what an elected man can do...AND what little power we have to stop it....Vote our asses off...Look where it got us.

 

[maineman]

US casualties Jan-Mar 07: 244
US casualties Apr-Jun 07: 330

THAT IS A 47% INCREASE!!!!!

If this is what it looks like when the "surge is working", just how horrific would it be if it WEREN'T working????

 

[mattskramer]

US casualties Jan-Mar 07: 244
US casualties Apr-Jun 07: 330

THAT IS A 47% INCREASE!!!!!

If this is what it looks like when the "surge is working", just how horrific would it be if it WEREN'T working????

I’m inclined to agree with you but those statistics seem high.

Do you have a source or can you explain how you arrived at those figures?

 

[Superlative]

I’m inclined to agree with you but those statistics seem high.

Do you have a source or can you explain how you arrived at those figures?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_casualties.htm

http://icasualties.org/oif/

 

[red states rule]

US casualties Jan-Mar 07: 244
US casualties Apr-Jun 07: 330

THAT IS A 47% INCREASE!!!!!

If this is what it looks like when the "surge is working", just how horrific would it be if it WEREN'T working????

330 casualties in three months of a ground war - and you consider that reason to surrender in Iraq?

 

[maineman]

I’m inclined to agree with you but those statistics seem high.

Do you have a source or can you explain how you arrived at those figures?

http://icasualties.org/oif/

DoD confirmed statistics.

but hey...to guys like RSR with Bush jism dripping from their lips and from their assholes, who wave pom poms for a war they are to afraid to fight in themselves....those sorts of numbers prove the "surge is working"!

 

[actsnoblemartin]

you realize im eating right

http://icasualties.org/oif/

DoD confirmed statistics.

but hey...to guys like RSR with Bush jism dripping from their lips and from their assholes, who wave pom poms for a war they are to afraid to fight in themselves....those sorts of numbers prove the "surge is working"!

 

[red states rule]

http://icasualties.org/oif/

DoD confirmed statistics.

but hey...to guys like RSR with Bush jism dripping from their lips and from their assholes, who wave pom poms for a war they are to afraid to fight in themselves....those sorts of numbers prove the "surge is working"!

I see you are still being a royal asshole tonight

Keep waving the surredner flag - your party can't run on their national security ideas

 

[maineman]

according to you, the surge is working. according to you, an increase in American casualties is a reason to wave your pom poms more vigorously. Why aren't you in Iraq laying down YOUR life for this war you so enthusiastically cheer for?