Official Thread for Denial of GreenHouse Effect and Radiative Physics.

[Wuwei]

Being that that statement is the mother of all physical laws, one wouldn't expect anything to violate it...which makes your belief that energy can move spontaneously from cool to warm patently ridiculous....try applying for any sort of patent with the US patent office which even hints at perpetual motion or a violation of the second law of thermodynamics and your application gets tossed into the nut bin without further consideration.

I don't expect any violations either. I know there are no violations. But with your definition you haven't come up with any radiation process that is spontaneous. Therefore the second law is not violated by any radiation process since none exist that are spontaneous.

Here is an interesting example of heat flow considering your definition of spontaneity:

If we set two irons at different temperatures facing each other on an ironing board, they can both radiate LWIR toward each other since there is energy input to the irons (because they are both plugged in a wall socket.) Ain't nothing spontaneous about that.

Do you agree they can radiate toward each other?

.

 

[SSDD]

Being that that statement is the mother of all physical laws, one wouldn't expect anything to violate it...which makes your belief that energy can move spontaneously from cool to warm patently ridiculous....try applying for any sort of patent with the US patent office which even hints at perpetual motion or a violation of the second law of thermodynamics and your application gets tossed into the nut bin without further consideration.

I don't expect any violations either. I know there are no violations. But with your definition you haven't come up with any radiation process that is spontaneous. Therefore the second law is not violated by any radiation process since none exist that are spontaneous.

Here is an interesting example of heat flow considering your definition of spontaneity:

If we set two irons at different temperatures facing each other on an ironing board, they can both radiate LWIR toward each other since there is energy input to the irons (because they are both plugged in a wall socket.) Ain't nothing spontaneous about that.

Do you agree they can radiate toward each other?

.

What work exactly is being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron?

 

[Wuwei]

Being that that statement is the mother of all physical laws, one wouldn't expect anything to violate it...which makes your belief that energy can move spontaneously from cool to warm patently ridiculous....try applying for any sort of patent with the US patent office which even hints at perpetual motion or a violation of the second law of thermodynamics and your application gets tossed into the nut bin without further consideration.

I don't expect any violations either. I know there are no violations. But with your definition you haven't come up with any radiation process that is spontaneous. Therefore the second law is not violated by any radiation process since none exist that are spontaneous.

Here is an interesting example of heat flow considering your definition of spontaneity:

If we set two irons at different temperatures facing each other on an ironing board, they can both radiate LWIR toward each other since there is energy input to the irons (because they are both plugged in a wall socket.) Ain't nothing spontaneous about that.

Do you agree they can radiate toward each other?

What work exactly is being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron?

You are changing the subject. The issue is not work; it's spontaneity.

Spontaneous process - A spontaneous process is one that will occur without any energy input from the surroundings. It is a process that will occur on its own.

Both irons are heated by the energy from the outside -- electricity, so they definitely are not spontaneous by any definition. Therefore radiation can move both ways between the irons. (As long as the radiation from the hotter iron is stronger than the colder iron.)

Right?

.

 

[SSDD]

Being that that statement is the mother of all physical laws, one wouldn't expect anything to violate it...which makes your belief that energy can move spontaneously from cool to warm patently ridiculous....try applying for any sort of patent with the US patent office which even hints at perpetual motion or a violation of the second law of thermodynamics and your application gets tossed into the nut bin without further consideration.

I don't expect any violations either. I know there are no violations. But with your definition you haven't come up with any radiation process that is spontaneous. Therefore the second law is not violated by any radiation process since none exist that are spontaneous.

Here is an interesting example of heat flow considering your definition of spontaneity:

If we set two irons at different temperatures facing each other on an ironing board, they can both radiate LWIR toward each other since there is energy input to the irons (because they are both plugged in a wall socket.) Ain't nothing spontaneous about that.

Do you agree they can radiate toward each other?

What work exactly is being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron?

You are changing the subject. The issue is not work; it's spontaneity.

Spontaneous process - A spontaneous process is one that will occur without any energy input from the surroundings. It is a process that will occur on its own.

Both irons are heated by the energy from the outside -- electricity, so they definitely are not spontaneous by any definition. Therefore radiation can move both ways between the irons. (As long as the radiation from the hotter iron is stronger than the colder iron.)

Right?

.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Clearly you don't know what the subject is. Describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron.

 

[Wuwei]

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Clearly you don't know what the subject is. Describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron.

Suppose both irons are being driven by electricity from a gas driven portable generator. The colder iron has it's thermostat turned to low.

There is no question that the pistons of the generator define thermodynamic work.

.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Clearly you don't know what the subject is. Describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron.

Suppose both irons are being driven by electricity from a gas driven portable generator. The colder iron has it's thermostat turned to low.

There is no question that the pistons of the generator define thermodynamic work.

.

If he reverses himself on a single epicycle, his entire edifice will collapse.

He can't even say if photons from the Sun's surface are emitted spontaneously or not.

 

[Wuwei]

If he reverses himself on a single epicycle, his entire edifice will collapse.

He can't even say if photons from the Sun's surface are emitted spontaneously or not.

Yes, his epicycles are getting tighter. Sort of like two neutron stars circling closer and closer til they explode.

He won't comment on many things because he knows he will be caught at self-contradiction.

.

 

[Billy_Bob]

If he reverses himself on a single epicycle, his entire edifice will collapse.

He can't even say if photons from the Sun's surface are emitted spontaneously or not.

Yes, his epicycles are getting tighter. Sort of like two neutron stars circling closer and closer til they explode.

He won't comment on many things because he knows he will be caught at self-contradiction.

.

Says the person who cant even correctly do the math on Joules to watts yet thinks that Einstein was wrong on CO2's ability to radiate in our atmosphere...

 

[Wuwei]

Says the person who cant even correctly do the math on Joules to watts yet thinks that Einstein was wrong on CO2's ability to radiate in our atmosphere.

Liar.
There was no error in the OP. There was a later typo that I caught.

Einstein was right. His theory on radiation lifetime was validated many times.

Why are you being such an asshole?
.

 

[Billy_Bob]

Says the person who cant even correctly do the math on Joules to watts yet thinks that Einstein was wrong on CO2's ability to radiate in our atmosphere.

Liar.
There was no error in the OP. There was a later typo that I caught.

Einstein was right. His theory on radiation lifetime was validated many times.

Why are you being such an asshole?
.

Let me know when you prove Einstein's computation wrong..

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If he reverses himself on a single epicycle, his entire edifice will collapse.

He can't even say if photons from the Sun's surface are emitted spontaneously or not.

Yes, his epicycles are getting tighter. Sort of like two neutron stars circling closer and closer til they explode.

He won't comment on many things because he knows he will be caught at self-contradiction.

.

Says the person who cant even correctly do the math on Joules to watts yet thinks that Einstein was wrong on CO2's ability to radiate in our atmosphere...

yet thinks that Einstein was wrong on CO2's ability to radiate in our atmosphere...

Link?

 

[SSDD]

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Clearly you don't know what the subject is. Describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron.

Suppose both irons are being driven by electricity from a gas driven portable generator. The colder iron has it's thermostat turned to low.

There is no question that the pistons of the generator define thermodynamic work.

.

that just describes the energy required to make the heat...now describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron...do I need to describe the work necessary to move cool to warm in an air conditioning unit again? It takes a great deal of effort to move cold to warm...and simply placing irons facing each other isn't going to do it.

 

[Billy_Bob]

If he reverses himself on a single epicycle, his entire edifice will collapse.

He can't even say if photons from the Sun's surface are emitted spontaneously or not.

Yes, his epicycles are getting tighter. Sort of like two neutron stars circling closer and closer til they explode.

He won't comment on many things because he knows he will be caught at self-contradiction.

.

Says the person who cant even correctly do the math on Joules to watts yet thinks that Einstein was wrong on CO2's ability to radiate in our atmosphere...

yet thinks that Einstein was wrong on CO2's ability to radiate in our atmosphere...

Link?

You dont have a damn clue.. Weiwi used the thermal reaction of N2 and CO2 in a forced excited state to get CO2 to act like he thinks it should. He miss applied the science to get a result he wanted and you want.. Einstein's calculations and the paper he quoted, disprove him and you..

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Clearly you don't know what the subject is. Describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron.

Suppose both irons are being driven by electricity from a gas driven portable generator. The colder iron has it's thermostat turned to low.

There is no question that the pistons of the generator define thermodynamic work.

.

that just describes the energy required to make the heat...now describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron...do I need to describe the work necessary to move cool to warm in an air conditioning unit again? It takes a great deal of effort to move cold to warm...and simply placing irons facing each other isn't going to do it.

now describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron...


Now describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler Sun's surface through the warmer corona.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If he reverses himself on a single epicycle, his entire edifice will collapse.

He can't even say if photons from the Sun's surface are emitted spontaneously or not.

Yes, his epicycles are getting tighter. Sort of like two neutron stars circling closer and closer til they explode.

He won't comment on many things because he knows he will be caught at self-contradiction.

.

Says the person who cant even correctly do the math on Joules to watts yet thinks that Einstein was wrong on CO2's ability to radiate in our atmosphere...

yet thinks that Einstein was wrong on CO2's ability to radiate in our atmosphere...

Link?

You dont have a damn clue.. Weiwi used the thermal reaction of N2 and CO2 in a forced excited state to get CO2 to act like he thinks it should. He miss applied the science to get a result he wanted and you want.. Einstein's calculations and the paper he quoted, disprove him and you..

Cool story bro. Link?

 

[Wuwei]

that just describes the energy required to make the heat...now describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron...do I need to describe the work necessary to move cool to warm in an air conditioning unit again? It takes a great deal of effort to move cold to warm...and simply placing irons facing each other isn't going to do it.

That comes from your definition of spontaneity. Prior work was done. Not spontaneous.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Clearly you don't know what the subject is. Describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron.

Suppose both irons are being driven by electricity from a gas driven portable generator. The colder iron has it's thermostat turned to low.

There is no question that the pistons of the generator define thermodynamic work.

.

that just describes the energy required to make the heat...now describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron...do I need to describe the work necessary to move cool to warm in an air conditioning unit again? It takes a great deal of effort to move cold to warm...and simply placing irons facing each other isn't going to do it.

now describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron...


Now describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler Sun's surface through the warmer corona.

Most likely culprit--nanoflares:

New theory on why the sun's corona is hotter than its surface
The Mystery of Nanoflares | Science Mission Directorate


"One of the interesting problems in space research is explaining why the sun's atmosphere (its corona) is so much hotter than its surface. The chief problem standing in the way of an answer is the lack of suitable instruments for measuring what occurs on the sun's surface and its atmosphere. In this new effort, the researchers used data from the FOXSI-2 sounding rocket (a rocket payload carrying seven telescopes designed to study the sun) to test a theory that suggests heat is injected into the atmosphere by multiple tiny explosions (very small solar flares) on the surface of the sun. Such flares are too small to see with most observational equipment, so the idea has remained just a theory. But now, the new data offers some evidence suggesting the theory is correct.


To test the theory, the researchers looked at X-ray emissions from the corona and found some that were very energetic. This is significant, because solar flares emit X-rays. But the team was studying a part of the sun that had no visible solar flares occurring at the time. This, of course, hinted at another source. The research team suggests the only likely source is superheated plasma that could only have occurred due to nanoflares.


The researchers acknowledge that their findings do not yet solve the coronal heating problem, but they believe they might be getting close. They note that much more research is required—next year, they point out, another sounding rocket will be launched with equipment even more sensitive than that used in the last round, offering better detection of faint X-rays. Also, plans are underway to launch a satellite capable of detecting nanoflares. If future tests can clearly identify the source of the X-rays, the coronal problem may soon be resolved."

 

[Wuwei]

Cool story bro. Link?

No link. He's bluffing.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Clearly you don't know what the subject is. Describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron.

Suppose both irons are being driven by electricity from a gas driven portable generator. The colder iron has it's thermostat turned to low.

There is no question that the pistons of the generator define thermodynamic work.

.

that just describes the energy required to make the heat...now describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron...do I need to describe the work necessary to move cool to warm in an air conditioning unit again? It takes a great deal of effort to move cold to warm...and simply placing irons facing each other isn't going to do it.

now describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron...


Now describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler Sun's surface through the warmer corona.

Most likely culprit--nanoflares:

New theory on why the sun's corona is hotter than its surface
The Mystery of Nanoflares | Science Mission Directorate


"One of the interesting problems in space research is explaining why the sun's atmosphere (its corona) is so much hotter than its surface. The chief problem standing in the way of an answer is the lack of suitable instruments for measuring what occurs on the sun's surface and its atmosphere. In this new effort, the researchers used data from the FOXSI-2 sounding rocket (a rocket payload carrying seven telescopes designed to study the sun) to test a theory that suggests heat is injected into the atmosphere by multiple tiny explosions (very small solar flares) on the surface of the sun. Such flares are too small to see with most observational equipment, so the idea has remained just a theory. But now, the new data offers some evidence suggesting the theory is correct.


To test the theory, the researchers looked at X-ray emissions from the corona and found some that were very energetic. This is significant, because solar flares emit X-rays. But the team was studying a part of the sun that had no visible solar flares occurring at the time. This, of course, hinted at another source. The research team suggests the only likely source is superheated plasma that could only have occurred due to nanoflares.


The researchers acknowledge that their findings do not yet solve the coronal heating problem, but they believe they might be getting close. They note that much more research is required—next year, they point out, another sounding rocket will be launched with equipment even more sensitive than that used in the last round, offering better detection of faint X-rays. Also, plans are underway to launch a satellite capable of detecting nanoflares. If future tests can clearly identify the source of the X-rays, the coronal problem may soon be resolved."

New theory on why the sun's corona is hotter than its surface

Thanks, but not what we're discussing here.
This thread was built for a few who believe "back radiation" does not exist because the cooler atmosphere is prohibited from radiating toward the warmer surface of the Earth.

They feel this because the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics doesn't allow heat (no mention of photons) to spontaneously flow from cooler matter to hotter matter unless work is done to move it.

This has expanded to photons not being allowed to travel from say a flashlight to the surface of the Sun, because the Sun is hotter.
This also, in their minds, prevents a photon from traveling millions, hell billions, of light years across the universe....if the photon will hit warmer matter than the matter that emitted it. Never mind the causality problems that would result.

So, if the corona is hotter than the surface, the surface could not emit a single photon that would hit the hotter matter of the, obviously very tenuous, corona. Now photons would have to be emitted, or not, strictly based on picking their path so that they didn't hit anything warmer.

It gets very complex and involves layer upon layer of epicycles.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Clearly you don't know what the subject is. Describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron.

Suppose both irons are being driven by electricity from a gas driven portable generator. The colder iron has it's thermostat turned to low.

There is no question that the pistons of the generator define thermodynamic work.

.

that just describes the energy required to make the heat...now describe the work being done to move energy from the cooler iron to the warmer iron...do I need to describe the work necessary to move cool to warm in an air conditioning unit again? It takes a great deal of effort to move cold to warm...and simply placing irons facing each other isn't going to do it.

do I need to describe the work necessary to move cool to warm in an air conditioning unit again?

Please do!