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Where you are wrong is in your assertion that the evidence supports your opinion, when in fact you have no evidence at all. You have claimed your position is one of logic, but you dont' use logic. I don't know if your assessment is right or wrong, nor do I care. God is an irrelevancy as far as I am concerned. But if you are going to hold your own beliefs (and belief is all it is) as reality, then I expect you to present some reality - not just your own insistence that the universe works a given way just because that is the way you want it to work.
So let me repeat my initial response to your OP. It is nothing but belief, no better than any other belief. And frankly, I am getting the feeling it is not a statement from someone who does not believe in God, but someone who is pissed off at the God he believes in. Because you seem to have a very clear idea of what God is.
I have PLENTY of evidence. You just fail to want to accept it. If I am misunderstanding what God is or capable of, then explain it to me. But you can't even do that. According to you, I'm wrong "just because" yet you don't feel the need to say why. Yup, you definitely sound like someone that would believe in an invisible man in the sky who lets babies suffer and die all while proclaiming god is all powerful and all loving.
I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that the guy you are arguing with doesn't believe in God. He just happens to be honest enough to see that your belief system is just as irrational as a person who claims that God told him to kill his neighbor.
I have PLENTY of evidence. You just fail to want to accept it. If I am misunderstanding what God is or capable of, then explain it to me. But you can't even do that. According to you, I'm wrong "just because" yet you don't feel the need to say why. Yup, you definitely sound like someone that would believe in an invisible man in the sky who lets babies suffer and die all while proclaiming god is all powerful and all loving.
I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that the guy you are arguing with doesn't believe in God. He just happens to be honest enough to see that your belief system is just as irrational as a person who claims that God told him to kill his neighbor.
Feel free to point out which part of my belief system is irrational. Is it the part where I can't understand why infants are made to suffer horrible diseases and die while an "loving and all powerful God" watches and does nothing? Is that what you mean by irrational belief system?
Doubling down on sky fairies by adding an evil one into the soap opera is hardly an explaination of sky fairy #1 ..the "good" one.
You could just add another make believe pixie for every situation that comes along into infinity.
Deconstructing "god" as a sheppard of humanity is as good as any place to start. The "devil" god seems to take a much more active role in the affairs of human endeavor than does the supposed "good" god. If there is truly a battle of wills and purpose between these two entities where is the evidense that praying evokes the good god's action?
There is none.
Therefore they said to Him [Jesus], What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?" - John 6:30
These were among the 5000 that just ate from a basket that only had 5 barley loaves and 2 fish. People always ask for a sign when it comes to fulfilling a need, yet even if such a sign would appear, they would still turn away because they don't have any belief. The people didn't believe in God or Jesus even AFTER being witnesses and partakers of miracles. What honestly makes you think, should He provide an answer with some form of sign today things would somehow be different? Truth is, you aren't really seeking for an answer.
See ??? There you go with that nonsense again...
The only miracle I see at work here is how you expect a rational person to believe you.
You do know that you all are crazy...right?
Therefore they said to Him [Jesus], What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?" - John 6:30
These were among the 5000 that just ate from a basket that only had 5 barley loaves and 2 fish. People always ask for a sign when it comes to fulfilling a need, yet even if such a sign would appear, they would still turn away because they don't have any belief. The people didn't believe in God or Jesus even AFTER being witnesses and partakers of miracles. What honestly makes you think, should He provide an answer with some form of sign today things would somehow be different? Truth is, you aren't really seeking for an answer.
See ??? There you go with that nonsense again...
The only miracle I see at work here is how you expect a rational person to believe you.
You do know that you all are crazy...right?
I have been told to believe in evolution. The idea that the miracle of life came from a single moment, where minerals from rock and water was responsible for ALL life we see here on the earth. I would say that takes quite a bit more "belief", than simply looking at 5 loaves and 2 fish, wouldn't you say? Not just sea creatures were created mind you, but this huge complete stretch of the imagination that says ALL LIFE stemmed from that one, single, small "miracle" event. Yet WE are to be referred to as the crazy ones? I'm merely trying to understand where exactly this "rational" part comes in, with respect to this preferred belief called evolution.
See ??? There you go with that nonsense again...
The only miracle I see at work here is how you expect a rational person to believe you.
You do know that you all are crazy...right?
I have been told to believe in evolution. The idea that the miracle of life came from a single moment, where minerals from rock and water was responsible for ALL life we see here on the earth. I would say that takes quite a bit more "belief", than simply looking at 5 loaves and 2 fish, wouldn't you say? Not just sea creatures were created mind you, but this huge complete stretch of the imagination that says ALL LIFE stemmed from that one, single, small "miracle" event. Yet WE are to be referred to as the crazy ones? I'm merely trying to understand where exactly this "rational" part comes in, with respect to this preferred belief called evolution.
Evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of life. That is abiogensis.
Whether or not you find that unbelievable is irrelevant. There is sufficient evidence to support the basic theory. Reality is not dependent upon belief.
I personally think it's #3.
I believe god does exist and isn't incompetent. But I also believe an omnipotent spiritual energy which created the universe and life, has no need for humanistic attributes like caring or worrying. Those are attributes god has bestowed upon us, to deal with the realities in our physical existence and material world, which god also created.
It is the Big Misconception of man made Religion, that God has human emotion or attributes. God doesn't need to be jealous, angry, happy, loving, vengeful, or wanting. God does not care if you worship God, believe in God, accept the existence of God. God doesn't have desire, but if it existed, could easily satisfy it...God is God, after all.
So you may be saying, what's the difference then, whether I believe in god or not? And there is no difference, really. It is through the strength of faith in God that many people find inspired hope and strength they wouldn't normally experience. Positive results from faith in God are often referred to by the religious as "blessings." However, it is a misconception that God cares whether or not you accept spiritual nature or have faith in it. God is completely indifferent to what you believe....like lightning or electricity. God exists for your benefit through faith, understanding, spiritual connection... it is entirely up to you whether you chose to utilize this in your limited existence. Some call this, "free will."
Thanks for the answer. One of the first and only real attempts at answering. We don't necessarily agree on the existence of God, but that's ok. At least you attempted to reconcile the shit we see in the world with how God fits in to that picture.
You did get other answers. You rejected them because they did not fit into your beliefs.
I have PLENTY of evidence. You just fail to want to accept it. If I am misunderstanding what God is or capable of, then explain it to me. But you can't even do that. According to you, I'm wrong "just because" yet you don't feel the need to say why. Yup, you definitely sound like someone that would believe in an invisible man in the sky who lets babies suffer and die all while proclaiming god is all powerful and all loving.
I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that the guy you are arguing with doesn't believe in God. He just happens to be honest enough to see that your belief system is just as irrational as a person who claims that God told him to kill his neighbor.
I think everyone's belief system is irrational. Including my own. In the absence of any evidence to support a conclusion, you just pick the one you like the best. What I object to with RDD is the claim of logic in regards his/her beliefs. If you are going to claim your are being logical, you should use logic. It is ok to be irrational, but you should realize it when it is happening.
Therefore they said to Him [Jesus], What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?" - John 6:30
These were among the 5000 that just ate from a basket that only had 5 barley loaves and 2 fish. People always ask for a sign when it comes to fulfilling a need, yet even if such a sign would appear, they would still turn away because they don't have any belief. The people didn't believe in God or Jesus even AFTER being witnesses and partakers of miracles. What honestly makes you think, should He provide an answer with some form of sign today things would somehow be different? Truth is, you aren't really seeking for an answer.
See ??? There you go with that nonsense again...
The only miracle I see at work here is how you expect a rational person to believe you.
You do know that you all are crazy...right?
I have been told to believe in evolution. The idea that the miracle of life came from a single moment, where minerals from rock and water was responsible for ALL life we see here on the earth. I would say that takes quite a bit more "belief", than simply looking at 5 loaves and 2 fish, wouldn't you say? Not just sea creatures were created mind you, but this huge complete stretch of the imagination that says ALL LIFE stemmed from that one, single, small "miracle" event. Yet WE are to be referred to as the crazy ones? I'm merely trying to understand where exactly this "rational" part comes in, with respect to this preferred belief called evolution.
Perhaps therin lies the problem. Maybe some people pop out of the womb hard wired to be "told" who to be and some, fewer, arrive with a quest to discover who they might be letting the chips fall where they may.
I was lucky in that I had very little "pounded" into my head and at a very eary age asked the right questions to my parents... answers to they could not supply. I was taken to church up to around age 5 and asked mom and dad what exactly people were doing when they prayed. They told me they were acting on faith. I responded that..that was not an answer to my question. I told them that I was uncomfortable being asked to do something that did not make any sense. They honored my discomfort and started to leave me home when they went to church. I assume they figured out if I was meant to discover "god" and Jesus that I would come around on my own time. I never looked back although I did read most of the major religions books as time went on out of curiosity.
I had serious hobbies and studies far beyond my years with chemistry sets and a photography set up including my own film and print proccessing. These advanced directions were offered by my folks as a test to see if I was indeed as smart as I claimed. I showed I was a lot more interested in chemistry and other topics than they both were even as graduates of the U of W. My mom graduated college at age 19. She wasn't a dummy. My dad graduated at 21 and joined the Army to make films for the war effort at the end of WWII and Korea. They both came from well to do families and bought a chunk of land on Orcas Island where thier kids didn't have to suffer the influence of the city. I learned a lot more about life operating a farm than I ever learned in public school although I did attend public schools thuout my childhood and teens. And yes...I operated the farm as my dad was working for Boeing making sales movies for them and only visited Orcas about twice a month.
So that's how HUGGY became an atheist. Lucky me...I avoided being brainwashed. These converations are entertaining to me only because there is an off chance that I can encourage someone to think for themselves therefor making this world a tiny bit more sane.
If I have a drop to offer let it fall in an ocean of truth and not an ocean of ignorance.
See ??? There you go with that nonsense again...
The only miracle I see at work here is how you expect a rational person to believe you.
You do know that you all are crazy...right?
I have been told to believe in evolution. The idea that the miracle of life came from a single moment, where minerals from rock and water was responsible for ALL life we see here on the earth. I would say that takes quite a bit more "belief", than simply looking at 5 loaves and 2 fish, wouldn't you say? Not just sea creatures were created mind you, but this huge complete stretch of the imagination that says ALL LIFE stemmed from that one, single, small "miracle" event. Yet WE are to be referred to as the crazy ones? I'm merely trying to understand where exactly this "rational" part comes in, with respect to this preferred belief called evolution.
Perhaps therin lies the problem. Maybe some people pop out of the womb hard wired to be "told" who to be and some, fewer, arrive with a quest to discover who they might be letting the chips fall where they may.
I was lucky in that I had very little "pounded" into my head and at a very eary age asked the right questions to my parents... answers to they could not supply. I was taken to church up to around age 5 and asked mom and dad what exactly people were doing when they prayed. They told me they were acting on faith. I responded that..that was not an answer to my question. I told them that I was uncomfortable being asked to do something that did not make any sense. They honored my discomfort and started to leave me home when they went to church. I assume they figured out if I was meant to discover "god" and Jesus that I would come around on my own time. I never looked back although I did read most of the major religions books as time went on out of curiosity.
I had serious hobbies and studies far beyond my years with chemistry sets and a photography set up including my own film and print proccessing. These advanced directions were offered by my folks as a test to see if I was indeed as smart as I claimed. I showed I was a lot more interested in chemistry and other topics than they both were even as graduates of the U of W. My mom graduated college at age 19. She wasn't a dummy. My dad graduated at 21 and joined the Army to make films for the war effort at the end of WWII and Korea. They both came from well to do families and bought a chunk of land on Orcas Island where thier kids didn't have to suffer the influence of the city. I learned a lot more about life operating a farm than I ever learned in public school although I did attend public schools thuout my childhood and teens. And yes...I operated the farm as my dad was working for Boeing making sales movies for them and only visited Orcas about twice a month.
So that's how HUGGY became an atheist. Lucky me...I avoided being brainwashed. These converations are entertaining to me only because there is an off chance that I can encourage someone to think for themselves therefor making this world a tiny bit more sane.
If I have a drop to offer let it fall in an ocean of truth and not an ocean of ignorance.
I have PLENTY of evidence. You just fail to want to accept it. If I am misunderstanding what God is or capable of, then explain it to me. But you can't even do that. According to you, I'm wrong "just because" yet you don't feel the need to say why. Yup, you definitely sound like someone that would believe in an invisible man in the sky who lets babies suffer and die all while proclaiming god is all powerful and all loving.
I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that the guy you are arguing with doesn't believe in God. He just happens to be honest enough to see that your belief system is just as irrational as a person who claims that God told him to kill his neighbor.
I think everyone's belief system is irrational. Including my own. In the absence of any evidence to support a conclusion, you just pick the one you like the best. What I object to with RDD is the claim of logic in regards his/her beliefs. If you are going to claim your are being logical, you should use logic. It is ok to be irrational, but you should realize it when it is happening.
I have been told to believe in evolution. The idea that the miracle of life came from a single moment, where minerals from rock and water was responsible for ALL life we see here on the earth. I would say that takes quite a bit more "belief", than simply looking at 5 loaves and 2 fish, wouldn't you say? Not just sea creatures were created mind you, but this huge complete stretch of the imagination that says ALL LIFE stemmed from that one, single, small "miracle" event. Yet WE are to be referred to as the crazy ones? I'm merely trying to understand where exactly this "rational" part comes in, with respect to this preferred belief called evolution.
Evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of life. That is abiogensis.
Whether or not you find that unbelievable is irrelevant. There is sufficient evidence to support the basic theory. Reality is not dependent upon belief.
I do have the basic knowledge of the miracle of life theory from elementary and junior high, I also used to be an avid watcher of Carl Sagan and Cosmos. However I found as many holes in this area of science, yet many people won't think twice of going with Darwin's theory, even though he himself battled the reality of such notions. When you take a step back, as I did, there is STILL the need for elephants, bees, lions, whales, dogs, bats, eagles, camels, mice, krill, owls, snakes, to ALL be traced back to that exact same point of origin without exception. That's a lot to prove and trust in someone to believe. Personally feeding 5000 people through the use of 5 barley loaves and two fish takes a lot less belief to go on. Suggesting the contrary is more of true "reality" is a very big stretch of the imagination. The sheer fact that even a set of quads that are born still manages to carry a unique set of fingerprints, that no two fingerprints are ever alike between two sets of people, is too remarkable to place on mere scientific "chance" with respect to life on the earth. Evolution requires a lot more faith to believe. Reality? ...... that remains to be seen.
I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that the guy you are arguing with doesn't believe in God. He just happens to be honest enough to see that your belief system is just as irrational as a person who claims that God told him to kill his neighbor.
I think everyone's belief system is irrational. Including my own. In the absence of any evidence to support a conclusion, you just pick the one you like the best. What I object to with RDD is the claim of logic in regards his/her beliefs. If you are going to claim your are being logical, you should use logic. It is ok to be irrational, but you should realize it when it is happening.
Which part of my reasoning is illogical? Be specific.
See ??? There you go with that nonsense again...
The only miracle I see at work here is how you expect a rational person to believe you.
You do know that you all are crazy...right?
I have been told to believe in evolution. The idea that the miracle of life came from a single moment, where minerals from rock and water was responsible for ALL life we see here on the earth. I would say that takes quite a bit more "belief", than simply looking at 5 loaves and 2 fish, wouldn't you say? Not just sea creatures were created mind you, but this huge complete stretch of the imagination that says ALL LIFE stemmed from that one, single, small "miracle" event. Yet WE are to be referred to as the crazy ones? I'm merely trying to understand where exactly this "rational" part comes in, with respect to this preferred belief called evolution.
Perhaps therin lies the problem. Maybe some people pop out of the womb hard wired to be "told" who to be and some, fewer, arrive with a quest to discover who they might be letting the chips fall where they may.
I was lucky in that I had very little "pounded" into my head and at a very eary age asked the right questions to my parents... answers to they could not supply. I was taken to church up to around age 5 and asked mom and dad what exactly people were doing when they prayed. They told me they were acting on faith. I responded that..that was not an answer to my question. I told them that I was uncomfortable being asked to do something that did not make any sense. They honored my discomfort and started to leave me home when they went to church. I assume they figured out if I was meant to discover "god" and Jesus that I would come around on my own time. I never looked back although I did read most of the major religions books as time went on out of curiosity.
I had serious hobbies and studies far beyond my years with chemistry sets and a photography set up including my own film and print proccessing. These advanced directions were offered by my folks as a test to see if I was indeed as smart as I claimed. I showed I was a lot more interested in chemistry and other topics than they both were even as graduates of the U of W. My mom graduated college at age 19. She wasn't a dummy. My dad graduated at 21 and joined the Army to make films for the war effort at the end of WWII and Korea. They both came from well to do families and bought a chunk of land on Orcas Island where thier kids didn't have to suffer the influence of the city. I learned a lot more about life operating a farm than I ever learned in public school although I did attend public schools thuout my childhood and teens. And yes...I operated the farm as my dad was working for Boeing making sales movies for them and only visited Orcas about twice a month.
So that's how HUGGY became an atheist. Lucky me...I avoided being brainwashed. These converations are entertaining to me only because there is an off chance that I can encourage someone to think for themselves therefor making this world a tiny bit more sane.
If I have a drop to offer let it fall in an ocean of truth and not an ocean of ignorance.
I have been told to believe in evolution. The idea that the miracle of life came from a single moment, where minerals from rock and water was responsible for ALL life we see here on the earth. I would say that takes quite a bit more "belief", than simply looking at 5 loaves and 2 fish, wouldn't you say? Not just sea creatures were created mind you, but this huge complete stretch of the imagination that says ALL LIFE stemmed from that one, single, small "miracle" event. Yet WE are to be referred to as the crazy ones? I'm merely trying to understand where exactly this "rational" part comes in, with respect to this preferred belief called evolution.
Evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of life. That is abiogensis.
Whether or not you find that unbelievable is irrelevant. There is sufficient evidence to support the basic theory. Reality is not dependent upon belief.
I do have the basic knowledge of the miracle of life theory from elementary and junior high, I also used to be an avid watcher of Carl Sagan and Cosmos. However I found as many holes in this area of science, yet many people won't think twice of going with Darwin's theory, even though he himself battled the reality of such notions. When you take a step back, as I did, there is STILL the need for elephants, bees, lions, whales, dogs, bats, eagles, camels, mice, krill, owls, snakes, to ALL be traced back to that exact same point of origin without exception. That's a lot to prove and trust in someone to believe. Personally feeding 5000 people through the use of 5 barley loaves and two fish takes a lot less belief to go on. Suggesting the contrary is more of true "reality" is a very big stretch of the imagination. The sheer fact that even a set of quads that are born still manages to carry a unique set of fingerprints, that no two fingerprints are ever alike between two sets of people, is too remarkable to place on mere scientific "chance" with respect to life on the earth. Evolution requires a lot more faith to believe. Reality? ...... that remains to be seen.
Thanks for the answer. One of the first and only real attempts at answering. We don't necessarily agree on the existence of God, but that's ok. At least you attempted to reconcile the shit we see in the world with how God fits in to that picture.
You did get other answers. You rejected them because they did not fit into your beliefs.
Since I just thanked someone who doesn't share my beliefs I guess that sort of kills your whole theory of me "rejecting other answers because they did not fit my beliefs".
But keep thinking you actually answered anything.
I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that the guy you are arguing with doesn't believe in God. He just happens to be honest enough to see that your belief system is just as irrational as a person who claims that God told him to kill his neighbor.
I think everyone's belief system is irrational. Including my own. In the absence of any evidence to support a conclusion, you just pick the one you like the best. What I object to with RDD is the claim of logic in regards his/her beliefs. If you are going to claim your are being logical, you should use logic. It is ok to be irrational, but you should realize it when it is happening.
Which part of my reasoning is illogical? Be specific.
You did get other answers. You rejected them because they did not fit into your beliefs.
Since I just thanked someone who doesn't share my beliefs I guess that sort of kills your whole theory of me "rejecting other answers because they did not fit my beliefs".
But keep thinking you actually answered anything.
Actually, that poster chose one of your three options - which you believe to be the only possible options. Any suggestion that other options might exist you have rejected out of hand - solely because they are not one of your three.
I think everyone's belief system is irrational. Including my own. In the absence of any evidence to support a conclusion, you just pick the one you like the best. What I object to with RDD is the claim of logic in regards his/her beliefs. If you are going to claim your are being logical, you should use logic. It is ok to be irrational, but you should realize it when it is happening.
Which part of my reasoning is illogical? Be specific.
I was, and you pretended you were smarter than Aristotle.
I think everyone's belief system is irrational. Including my own. In the absence of any evidence to support a conclusion, you just pick the one you like the best. What I object to with RDD is the claim of logic in regards his/her beliefs. If you are going to claim your are being logical, you should use logic. It is ok to be irrational, but you should realize it when it is happening.
Which part of my reasoning is illogical? Be specific.
You arrive at a conclusion in the absence of information and claim evidence you cannot produce. What part of that is logical?
