Oregon Gov Commutes Sentences of Death Row Inmates

[JoeB131]

Somebody call a Doctor to stop his bleeding heart liberalism.

More like pragmatism.

The DP is a massive inefficiency, which is why most of the world has gotten rid of it

 

[Couchpotato]

Now you guys are for the Democratic Process? After you foisted a President on us most of us didn't want?

Who's you guys? And I assume you're talking about Trump, he wasnt foisted upon you or anyone elese, he was a duly elected President. Unless you're an election denier... You not liking him doenst change that.

Okay, let's review this argument. Voters in Oregon reinstated the DP in 1984! That's nearly 40 years ago. Oregon has only executed 2 people since the DP was re-instated and that was back in the mid 90's.

Put it back on the ballot then. If the abolishment of the DP is popular in Oregon it would pass and we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's how the democratic process works. What you're advocating for and supporting is how dictators' rule.

I think that gives the governor more than enough cover for her action.



28 Trillion over 60 years is an inadequate number.

The Great Society did a lot to reduce poverty, but we are nowhere near where we should be.

That's the point numb nuts. How much exactly do you think we should spend on "abolishing poverty"? We have spent essentially the entire national debt on it and we haven't moved the needle significantly. The poverty rate in 1990 was 13.5 currently its 11.6. It's clear you can't just spend your way out of this problem certainly not the way we have spent the money at least. You'll forgive me if I'd like to see at least a little bit of ROI on a 28 trillion-dollar investment.

 

[JoeB131]

Who's you guys? And I assume you're talking about Trump, he wasnt foisted upon you or anyone elese, he was a duly elected President. Unless you're an election denier... You not liking him doenst change that.

The people said No.
You guys used a technicality to foist him on us.
40 years ago, the people of Oregon voted in the DP, and after executing a whopping 2 people, decided that it just wasn't all that to get their murder chubby off.

Put it back on the ballot then. If the abolishment of the DP is popular in Oregon it would pass and we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's how the democratic process works. What you're advocating for and supporting is how dictators' rule.

Nope, I'm advocating the governor using the same power governors have had to commute sentences as they see fit. Given Oregon hasn't executed anyone since 1997, I don't think it's that big of an issue.

That's the point numb nuts. How much exactly do you think we should spend on "abolishing poverty"? We have spent essentially the entire national debt on it and we haven't moved the needle significantly. The poverty rate in 1990 was 13.5 currently its 11.6. It's clear you can't just spend your way out of this problem certainly not the way we have spent the money at least. You'll forgive me if I'd like to see at least a little bit of ROI on a 28 trillion-dollar investment.

Where was the needle in 1965, when the war on poverty began. It was at 22% in 1959, by 1965, it dropped to 13%. That actually IS progress.

We got a very good ROI. The poor didn't overthrow the government and kill us all. A lot of the world wasn't that lucky.

 

[Harry Dresden]

But rich people do commit some awful crimes... and none of them ever get executed.

Your chances of getting executed become higher depending on your race and your level of poverty. A good reason to abolish the DP in and of itself.

The point is, once you've executed someone, you can't undo it if you find out you were wrong later.

ok joe... name a rich guy who committed a violent crime against someone.....and lets see what happened to him....

 

[Bob Blaylock]

By technical bullshit, you mean "The Constitution"? You know, like the part about "Cruel and Unusual Punishment", as the DP is definitely both cruel and unusual.

Nobody seemed to think so at the time the Eighth Amendment was ratified. Death was pretty much the common sentence for most very serious crimes, not just for murder. And nobody gave a shit if the criminal was made to suffer at least as much as it had caused its victims to suffer.

The point is that we no know that lethal injection is not painless, and they are routinely botched.

Probably a lot less painful to the subhuman piece of shit being put down, than what that piece of shit did to its victims. Of course, it is well-established that your sympathies are with the subhuman criminal piece of shit, and never with any actual human beings that are victimized thereby.

 

[JoeB131]

ok joe... name a rich guy who committed a violent crime against someone.....and lets see what happened to him....

Well, the Menendez Brothers. Murdered both of their parents with a shotgun, got themselves a sleazy, high-powered lawyer who argued that their father molested them, and they got off with mere life sentences. They might even get parole at some point.

John DuPont. - Murdered a wrestler he had the gays for...

Nobody seemed to think so at the time the Eighth Amendment was ratified. Death was pretty much the common sentence for most very serious crimes, not just for murder. And nobody gave a shit if the criminal was made to suffer at least as much as it had caused its victims to suffer.

At the time, people thought slavery was okay, shitting in a chamber pot was hygienic, and bleeding someone for strep throat was a valid medical treatment.

So let's not use that as a standard. If the founders thought that cruel and unusual punishment was unacceptable, then a punishment that is selective enforced and cruel falls into that category.

Probably a lot less painful to the subhuman piece of shit being put down, than what that piece of shit did to its victims. Of course, it is well-established that your sympathies are with the subhuman criminal piece of shit, and never with any actual human beings that are victimized thereby.

Again, if you want to reduce crime, address the underlying causes. We don't, because we are dumb, racist and greedy. The Europeans have, and they have nowhere near our murder rates.

Killing someone for a crime doesn't bring the dead person back. And if you execute the wrong person, that makes it even worse for everyone involved. (Except the guy who did it, and got away with it.)

The point is, we keep changing our method of execution in this country because they are considered cruel.

We used to hang people. Then hanging was considered too cruel and was associated with lynching.
Then we changed to the electric Chair, thinking that was better somehow. Until someone realized they were burning people alive, pretty much.
Then we changed to the Gas Chamber. Well, that didn't go over well. to Hitler-y
Now we have lethal injection, which sounds nice because the first drug paralyzes the person, so we can't see them suffer when the other two drugs kill them. Except it doesn't always work, pharmaceutical companies are now refusing to supply the drugs, and doctors are refusing to participate.

Of course, we are to the point where we only execute 20 people a year now, because the process has become so cumbersome and expensive.

 

[DBA]

The Europeans have, and they have nowhere near our murder rates.

What is it with you liberals and Europe? You act as if we should do as they do despite the fact that we are more powerful, wealthy and just plain better by just about every reasonable measure than most European countries. You can pick and choose some things that are good/better in one country and good in another, but you won’t find one singular country as good overall as the US, because there are tradeoffs for everything. ”Free” healthcare, but exorbitant taxes. Many social safety nets, but relying on NATA and the US for military aid., etc. The only people in this country that are so enamored by some European country’s healthcare and profession to be so “happy” are the losers who can’t make it here in the US. Move on I say, good riddence.

 

[Couchpotato]

The people said No.
You guys used a technicality to foist him on us.

Again with the "you guys" Who are "you guys"?


That pesky technicality called the Constitution?

40 years ago, the people of Oregon voted in the DP, and after executing a whopping 2 people, decided that it just wasn't all that to get their murder chubby off.

If the people of Oregon didnt want the DP why would they not have voted to get rid of it over the past 40 years? Seriously. What has stopped them from doing so? Either you're for the Democratic process and are willing to accept what the electorate votes for or your not.

Nope, I'm advocating the governor using the same power governors have had to commute sentences as they see fit. Given Oregon hasn't executed anyone since 1997, I don't think it's that big of an issue.

I never said she couldn't do it only that it violates the spirit of the commutation powers of the Governor which is clearly does. Again you're only ok with this because she did something you happen to agree with.

Where was the needle in 1965, when the war on poverty began. It was at 22% in 1959, by 1965, it dropped to 13%. That actually IS progress.

So, the poverty level dropped more in the 6 years prior to the "war on poverty" legislation being passed than it has in the 60 years since? PROGRESS!!!

We got a very good ROI. The poor didn't overthrow the government and kill us all. A lot of the world wasn't that lucky.

See above dummy.

 

[Couchpotato]

What is it with you liberals and Europe? You act as if we should do as they do despite the fact that we are more powerful, wealthy and just plain better by just about every reasonable measure than most European countries. You can pick and choose some things that are good/better in one country and good in another, but you won’t find one singular country as good overall as the US, because there are tradeoffs for everything. ”Free” healthcare, but exorbitant taxes. Many social safety nets, but relying on NATA and the US for military aid., etc. The only people in this country that are so enamored by some European country’s healthcare and profession to be so “happy” are the losers who can’t make it here in the US. Move on I say, good riddence.

It's also much easier to have all the little programs they have in Europe when you dont have to worry about your own security. When Uncle Sam is spending all the money to keep you secure it frees up all kinds of cash to do any number of things.

 

[JoeB131]

Cletus is done proud to be an American as he waves his confederate flag outside his double wide.

What is it with you liberals and Europe? You act as if we should do as they do despite the fact that we are more powerful, wealthy and just plain better by just about every reasonable measure than most European countries. You can pick and choose some things that are good/better in one country and good in another, but you won’t find one singular country as good overall as the US, because there are tradeoffs for everything.

Yes, there are. But let's try to stay focused here Cleetus. I was specifically talking about crime and murder.

The US had 24576 Murders in 2020. The United Kingdom had 809. Germany had 782. France had 879 Italy had 285. Even factoring in that their populations are about a quarter of ours, they are doing something right compared to us. So what are they doing that we aren't.

Well, it isn't because of the death penalty being a deterrent. These countries all abolished capital punishment decades ago.
It isn't because they are locking more people up. We lock up 2 million people, and they all lock up less than 80,000.
It isn't because criminals are preying on unarmed civilians. Most of those countries either ban private gun ownership or make them very difficult to get.

Here is what they ARE doing
1) They treat addiction as a medical issue, not a criminal one
2) they have programs to make sure the mentally ill get shelter and treatment.
3) They don't allow grinding poverty to occur. They have an actual safety net.

Free” healthcare, but exorbitant taxes. Many social safety nets,

Yes, it is terrible that the Europeans make the rich pay their fair share. Terrible, I tell you.

The problem with out health care is we spend 17% of our GDP on it, but we get the worst results. We have the lowest life expectancy and the highest infant mortality rates in the Industrialized World. Most of these European countries with their "exorbitant" taxes spend about 8-11% of their GDP.

but relying on NATA and the US for military aid., etc.

NATO hasn't taken military action in Europe since 1999, and in that case, it was at US instigation. Most of the actions NATO has participated in, like Afghanistan, have benefited the US.

The only people in this country that are so enamored by some European country’s healthcare and profession to be so “happy” are the losers who can’t make it here in the US. Move on I say, good riddence.

As I stated, I used to be more right wing than you are. Then I busted up my knee, and found out what a joy it is to fight with an insurance company over a surgery AFTER you paid the premiums.

 

[JoeB131]

Again with the "you guys" Who are "you guys"?


That pesky technicality called the Constitution?

You mean an anarchonism in the constitution we should have rejected years go, yes. The thing was, before 2000, it wasn't an issue. The guy who won the EC usually also won the popular vote.

If the people of Oregon didnt want the DP why would they not have voted to get rid of it over the past 40 years? Seriously. What has stopped them from doing so? Either you're for the Democratic process and are willing to accept what the electorate votes for or your not.

They voted in governors who had consistently said they are against the DP and wouldn't carry out executions. So they did vote on the matter. .

I never said she couldn't do it only that it violates the spirit of the commutation powers of the Governor which is clearly does. Again you're only ok with this because she did something you happen to agree with.

I'm okay with it because the Death Penalty has no benefits in controlling crime. DP states have higher murder rates than non-DP states.

So, the poverty level dropped more in the 6 years prior to the "war on poverty" legislation being passed than it has in the 60 years since? PROGRESS!!!

Arguably, the war on Poverty began in the 1930's with the New Deal.

But the real progress in the last 60 years has been conservatives destroying the middle class. We spend five times more on "middle class entitlements" than we do on "poverty relief."

It's also much easier to have all the little programs they have in Europe when you dont have to worry about your own security. When Uncle Sam is spending all the money to keep you secure it frees up all kinds of cash to do any number of things.

Good idea. Let's gut the military industrial complex, stop pissing away money to play hall monitor in the Middle East, and take care of our own people for a change. Like the Europeans do.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Again, if you want to reduce crime, address the underlying causes.

THE underlying cause of crime is that some nominally-human creatures, either through bad upbringing, or just being inherently defective, lack a basic sense of ethics and morality.

The way to address that cause is to remove these monsters from free society; permanently, if necessary. Some may be rehabilitative, but many are not.

Making excuses for them only encourages criminality.

 

[JoeB131]

THE underlying cause of crime is that some nominally-human creatures, either through bad upbringing, or just being inherently defective, lack a basic sense of ethics and morality.

The way to address that cause is to remove these monsters from free society; permanently, if necessary. Some may be rehabilitative, but many are not.

Making excuses for them only encourages criminality.

It's easy to "moral" and "ethical" when you go to bed with a full belly and a roof over your head. The one thing that history teaches us is that if you put "humans" under stress, they are capable of all sort of awful things.

The Europeans have figured this out. Make sure everyone's basic needs are met, treat the mentally ill and addicted, and don't let people have guns, because that would be stupid. As a result, they have very little crime and only have to lock up the truly depraved.

We lock up people for stealing slices of pizza, and wonder why they come out of prison far worse than the went in.

 

[Harry Dresden]

It's easy to "moral" and "ethical" when you go to bed with a full belly and a roof over your head. The one thing that history teaches us is that if you put "humans" under stress, they are capable of all sort of awful things.

The Europeans have figured this out. Make sure everyone's basic needs are met, treat the mentally ill and addicted, and don't let people have guns, because that would be stupid. As a result, they have very little crime and only have to lock up the truly depraved.

We lock up people for stealing slices of pizza, and wonder why they come out of prison far worse than the went in.

and yet so many people who know this still want to live here....

 

[JoeB131]

and yet so many people who know this still want to live here....

Yes, if you are from a poor third world country, you want to live here.
You also want to live in Europe, which is why so many people drown crossing the Mediterrean Sea.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Yes, if you are from a poor third world country, you want to live here.
You also want to live in Europe, which is why so many people drown crossing the Mediterrean Sea.

so why would someone leave a violent poor 3rd world country to come to this violent racist nation?...

 

[Couchpotato]

Yes, if you are from a poor third world country, you want to live here.
You also want to live in Europe, which is why so many people drown crossing the Mediterrean Sea.

3 Times As Many Europeans Move to the US, than the Other Way Around | Mises Institute

The US is often criticized for supposedly offering a lower quality of life than Europe. But far more Europeans migrate to the US than the other way around.

mises.org

 

[JoeB131]

3 Times As Many Europeans Move to the US, than the Other Way Around | Mises Institute

The US is often criticized for supposedly offering a lower quality of life than Europe. But far more Europeans migrate to the US than the other way around.

mises.org

Sad. YOU realize that when they say "Europe" here, they don't mean Germany, Italy, France and England.

They mean Poland and Bulgaria and Romania and other places that are still recovering from Soviet Domination.

so why would someone leave a violent poor 3rd world country to come to this violent racist nation?...

Um, because this is where the jobs are... dummy.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

It's easy to "moral" and "ethical" when you go to bed with a full belly and a roof over your head. The one thing that history teaches us is that if you put "humans" under stress, they are capable of all sort of awful things.

Bullshit.

Just because you are a soulless sociopath that would commit any crime for which you thought you had a good excuse, does not mean that actual human beings are that way.

“We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker.” — Ronald Reagan​

 

[Harry Dresden]

Sad. YOU realize that when they say "Europe" here, they don't mean Germany, Italy, France and England.

They mean Poland and Bulgaria and Romania and other places that are still recovering from Soviet Domination.



Um, because this is where the jobs are... dummy.

im a dummy because i asked you a question?....you are a dipshit joe...